Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Would you trade a new Horizon 5565 for a Used Century Projector/Christy Platter?

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Posted by Benjamin Speed (Member # 5160) on 02-22-2009, 02:16 PM:

Hello - this is my first entry. I am writing from The Grand Theater in Ellsworth, Maine. We are a calendar art house that features films only 4-5 times a week at most, when there isn't a concert or play on the stage. Thank you for considering my topic?

After retiring two projectors (Century Projectors with newer Super Simplex lamp houses) from 1939, we decided to pursue a projector from Horizon, a Chinese company that uses Xenon bulbs. We knew we weren't getting a Cadillac, but we were hoping that at least it would run for 10-15 years until we cold invest in a larger digital/server system. Boy have we been disappointed. Since August, 2008, from replacing a sound head, aperture plate, reader cards, to parts failing and just recently breaking in half, the machine has been in repair for more days than it has been in service. Needless to say we have asked for the machine to be removed.

Instead of the Horizon dealer offering to refund us, or replace it with a similar model, he has offered to replace this Horizon 5565 All-in-One system with a USED Century SA Projector along with a Christie AW-3 platter system. We would be able to use our current lenses.

My question is, if we paid $13k for the new Horizon projector, is a used Century projector and Christie platter system a good deal, and will we be satisfied (keep in mind, we purchased the Horizon All-in-One system, because we are tight on space)? What would a new system like this Century/Christie go for? Should we take the offer, or push for a refund? [Confused]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-22-2009, 02:27 PM:

1- Welcome to Film-Tech!

2- Going from Horizon to Century/Christie setup would be a definite plus. Those two units will last a lifetime.

3- Depends on how old the AW3 is (does it have the removable brains, or are they a solid brain setup?). A good used AW3 will still garnish decent bucks if in good condition (better get the makeup table included in this package) As for the Century (and should come with the R3 soundhead), even though if used, the also can garnish some value as well if in great conditon.

Funny, no mention on a lamphouse or console on this package. Better include that, plus a discription of that before a final judgement call from us can be made.

good luck-Monte

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 02-22-2009, 02:35 PM:

Welcome to the Forum.

I wouldn't trust this dealer for anything. What's to say his "used" SA isn't beat to hell?

There are several rebuilt Century SA projectors and R3 soundheads available for about $2500.

Push for a refund and then get a new and honorable dealer!

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 02-22-2009, 02:37 PM:

No, you are removing a defective NEW projector. I assume that the trade equipment is used, rebuilt, or remanufactured???

BTW: The reason a Century is called that is that the designer was told to "make it last a 100 years." Western Electric had just previously invented the ball bearing!!

Still selling rebuilt Centurys. Louis

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 02-22-2009, 02:45 PM:

I agree with Phil. There are plenty of used/reconditioned Centurys around at reasonable prices and they will last longer than you and I will. Then you'll have extra funds to buy something else you'll need for your house. BTW I would suggest you go for a two projector changeover system for classic films. The distributors will not give you their best prints for a platter system.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 02-22-2009, 02:46 PM:

For a tight space situation in a cultural center, a large reel transport with projector / lamphouse I feel is better than a platter / projector set up. The same type of locations I service the platter is always "abused" as a tech table / storage or pushed around to let some other hardware to be used.....and usually is the most serviced item.
The Horizon / Harbin all in one unit film take up dancer arm is a problem and the platter set up is asking for trouble if your operator is not tech savvy. The all in one comes with a lamphouse / power supply, set up either for up to 3kw or 5kw..
A "rebuilt" Century package and "rebuilt" AW3 may be your best bet.....

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 02-22-2009, 02:58 PM:

Benjamin, welcome to F-T first of all. [Smile]

I also second what Phil said..with the amount of running time you have those machines shouldn't have had so many failures..there is another member here who is trying to deal with that junk.

Definitely push for a FULL refund of your money and you can easily spend a lot less on REBUILT equipment.

For that same $13k I could have set you guys up with a fully rebuilt AW3, a Fully rebuilt Century JJ 35/70 and 4k lamphouse.

I would love to know who that dealer is.....he may deserve to be outed in the "Deadbeats In The Industry" thread if he doesn't make good on this..

Edited to add:

Did that dealer end up with your old equipment? If so I would beware, he may try to "trade" back your old equipment and still walk away with your money.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-22-2009, 03:58 PM:

Absolutely get a full refund! You got screwed by this dealer big time! The used Century/Christie gear he is offering you is worth about 1/3 or less than what you paid for the new Chink projector. Remember, because of all the Digital going in (and contrary to what some here may think there IS alot going in) there is a glut of used equipment out there... ya need a reputable dealer for sure but because you are space limited I'd go with an all Christie booth because it'll require MUCH LESS maintainance than an older Century/Simplex type booth will require. The latest Christie P-35's are pretty darn hard to beat, require no oil and only need belt changes now every 3 to 5 years. Belt cost is only about 30 bucks!! Also, because of your space limitations consider a Christie Miniwind platter instead... the advent of Estar based film will allow alot more film to go onto the smaller 42" decks than you could with acetate.

Mark

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 02-22-2009, 04:30 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Chink

????

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-22-2009, 05:00 PM:

My concern would be what type of lamphouse and rectifier is in the replacement package
I would check what the terms of your warranty as to what options you have
In samll enviroment like that you may want to look at the ernamann all in one with the built in sidewinder or the like one from spain

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-22-2009, 07:22 PM:

Don't take the deal. Demand a full refund. For less than what you paid, you can get a rebuilt (and by rebuilt I mean PROPERLY rebuilt) Century SA with a rebuilt AW3 platter and a suitable lamphouse. (Don't get anything ORC.)

Then again you could get a brand new Christie projector and SLC lamphouse for about that money and pick up a used platter to mate with it too. Whatever you do, demand a full refund.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 02-22-2009, 09:13 PM:

quote: Richard Hamilton
RE: quote: Chink

????

That's the sound a Strong Console's AC ignitor makes. [Big Grin]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-22-2009, 09:58 PM:

Actually, they go "pop-pop-pop-pop!" then "chink" - then you want to cuss...

Posted by Andrew Bangs (Member # 4938) on 02-23-2009, 02:20 AM:

Speaking from experience with these damned machines get a full refund. I have ten screens of these Horizons and they are a constant bother. plus it is hell to get someone out to work on them. I have had to do a nightly dance and hold my face just right for them to keep working properly over the last year. and where I was primarily only having trouble with the Platters now the projectors are starting to give me headaches. I think most of them are one loose screw away from failure. in the past month I have had a rectifier die, a shutter disintegrate, and a main power failure (for no apparent reason the projector just shuts down). These projectors were only built (from what I have been told) for a limited run to get us through to the Digital age. Well with that taking longer than expected. these buggers just are not standing the test of time. Some really neat ideas were implemented with this equipment but what is great in theory has yet again failed in practice. Sorry if I seem a bit harsh but I am constantly on edge that I will receive a call from the theatre saying # whatever has stopped working and we don't know why. Because it does happen all to often.

Ok Rant done! in the end I say cut bait and run. Get your refund and go get some descent Equipment that will last. and make sure it will last for another good five to ten years cause that may be how long it will take to get this wonderful Digital to the small houses.

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 02-23-2009, 06:10 AM:

New isn't necessarily better. Century's are tried and true, easy to operate and reliable and will outlast us all. This isn't a dump on Chinese equipment but it is built to a price-period. You pays your money, you gets your dues.

Just a thought- why is it that in the video realm, equipment is constantly being replaced and upgraded due to incompatibility with new standards and formats whereas film equipment can run (albeit with minor modifications) prints from the 1920's? THAT is film's big advantage-it is built to an international standard.

'Nuff said. Video Sucks. Anyone remember 2" quad?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-23-2009, 09:04 AM:

quote: Ian Parfrey
Anyone remember 2" quad?

YEP! Worked on RCA TR-22's(all germanium) and Ampex AVR-2's alot. They were actually great machines and the gestation they went through over the years happened as TV itself gestated. There was a brief time period when low band color went to high band but thatw as as easy as switching out some modules on the RCA's. I wish I has saved one of the AVR-2's... its the smallest broadcast grade quad machine ever built, they ended up in the dumpster. There was briefly a portable machine made by someone but it was very short lived.

Ian, You should live in a country where running film is a lost art and is typically done by bunch of morons. Believe you me... You would find D-Cinema a blessing if ypou lived here...

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-23-2009, 10:43 AM:

I live here and I don't find it a blessing at all. And with 3D forcing many to go to Silver screens...actually it is a huge set back. There is no way to light a flat Silver screen in an even manner. Digital is completely ill equipped, for now, to deal with curved screens (unless you consider wacking off pixels as the means to deal with it).

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-23-2009, 02:30 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
I live here and I don't find it a blessing at all. And with 3D forcing many to go to Silver screens...actually it is a huge set back. There is no way to light a flat Silver screen in an even manner. Digital is completely ill equipped, for now, to deal with curved screens (unless you consider wacking off pixels as the means to deal with it).

Sure you still have a handful of capable prpojectionists there in your area. Silver will never be able to be lit evenly enough for you and they are not meant for you to attend anyway... They do however generate huge revenues and put alot of people in the theater seats which in the end is really what matters. Some day you need to experience "real world" movie theaters...

If you follow Harkness's reccomendations for curved screen and D-Cinema you will only loose a very neglagible number of pixels...

Mark

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 02-28-2009, 04:22 PM:

Benjamin, any follow-up to this? Have you gotten your refund yet?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-01-2009, 03:04 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Sure you still have a handful of capable prpojectionists there in your area. Silver will never be able to be lit evenly enough for you and they are not meant for you to attend anyway... They do however generate huge revenues and put alot of people in the theater seats which in the end is really what matters. Some day you need to experience "real world" movie theaters...

Truth be told...projectionists are crap everywhere (as an average group)...except maybe screening rooms. Exhibitors have bread that sort of "Quality." I have no illusions about phenomenal film presentations being the norm.

I also don't suffer from the illusion that digital will somehow fix that. In fact, your 3D example is just more case in point.

Okay, using SMPTE 196M...in a standard theatre (not a review room), the light on the sides of the screen shall be 75-90% of the light measured in the center (in the case of DCinema, that is 14fL for 2D...and anywhere between 3-5fL for 3D. Sides being defined as 5% in from the edges of the screen. So you need at least 10.5fL (presuming 14fL achieve in center) on the sides for a 2D show. In a 3D show...one needs just a measly 3.75fL presuming you have 5fL in the center. In a review room (my kinda folks) you need 4.5fL on the sides with 5fL in the center.

With a silver screen...it is IMPOSSIBLE unless you curve it just right and that just isn't going to happen because it will induce way too much barrel distortion.

The facts are, in the name of polarized 3D, you have to severely lower the quality of every other aspect of the image. Color, in some cases resolution, luminance, uniformity...it all takes a back seat to the mighty 3D...which, dispite your claims and production's dreams, has not shown that it has or will sell one extra ticket. As I've stated previously, it will shift that ticket sale to a 3D theatre...until such time as most theatres have 3D capability at some point. This is kind of like stereo sound...at one point, it was a selling point...then it hit saturation and it lost all marquee value as EVERYONE had stereo sound (or at least the average moviegoer believes that is the case).

I simply will not lower my standards for a gimmick like this. My question to you is why do you so easily lower yours? I don't mean to imply you don't try to achieve the best 3D experience...but with ANY silver screen presentation, you will never achieve even the most lax of established image standards. It is inexcusable of the industry to propose using such a process until such time as it can do so in an economically viable manner that also meets/exceeds established industry standards.

At least with the Dolby 3D process...light uniformity and color saturation can be addressed. They still need the most light though with a mere 10% efficiency.

-Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-01-2009, 08:30 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
My question to you is why do you so easily lower yours?

Thats easy to answer. Sometimes I have to bow to my customers decisions as what they choose generally works for their situation AND it puts patrons in their seats. No patrons my friend and we no longer have jobs and believe me I;m not going back into the broadcast industry! If you think this industry is now lax... talk to any tech that works at any large TV station. Luckily when I was in Broadcast I was on the very tail end of the good era.

As I mentioned Silver screens are not for people like you and I even if they did have great light distribution the color wold suck. I've now worked with multiples of all three single projector 3-D systems and as far as Dolby goes I'd have a very hard time selling it in the future to anyone just based on the cost of the wheel itself AND just so the likes of you or I could be happy with the eveness of screen illumination. Actually 1.8 gain screens according to your previously posted measurements also suffer dramatically, of course not as bad as silver does but none the less as you said it wasn't something you could put up with either. Except for screening rooms themselves or theaters built for extreme quality it really doesn't matter... but then with Dolby 3-D you also wouldn't be able to get enough light on the screen for any real critical judgement nor is the average Joe going to sit there in Regals Megablockhouse #6 and say "gee Ethel, thats awful light distribution"!

quote: Steve Guttag
It is inexcusable of the industry to propose using such a process until such time as it can do so in an economically viable manner that also meets/exceeds established industry standards.

Unfortunately my friend on the day Mike Todd's plane crashed the industry standards were in his briefcase. Of the 50 or so people like yourself in this industry that REALLY CARE about standards... and don't for one minute think I don't... there are 5000 industry people and another 10,000 theater owners out there that could care less as long as there's a picture on the screen and patrons in the seats AND that they get to their daily golf game. How sad this is...

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-01-2009, 08:44 PM:

I don't put up 1.8 gain screens either (or they are at the upper-end of a tolerence)...I have done several 1.5ish gain screens over the years...always curved to meet/exceed SMPTE specs...in fact, my recent Dolby 3D installation is on one of them. It is why I had more than 5fL of light available on a 38' wide screen with just a 4500W lamp. No compromise in standards...the customer got everything. Presumming 3D raises the light level...we have room to get even brighter with 6KW.

I have a quote out now again for a similar situation...again a curved 1.5ish gain screen that meets SMPTE specs. It can be done.

The problem is, my friend, this 3D business does not really increase ticket sales for the industry...and is heading for no increased ticket sales for everyone (with each cinema that comes on line). When Hanna Montana opened last year...it was on 1/3 the number of screens...if only those same 500 screens had the current concert movie, instead of $3K/screen/day average...it would be closer to $9K...however the dilution of the profit pool will continue until people just stop doing it.

Steve

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 03-01-2009, 09:10 PM:

Thank you, Steve. You have (again) encapsulated my thoughts about DCin/3D exactly. Louis

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 03-01-2009, 10:52 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
There was briefly a portable machine made by someone but it was very short lived.

That might have been Ampex. they had a "suitcase" model (more like a 700 pound trunk). The "low budget" station in our market ran on a couple of them for a long time.

IVC made a 1" machine that was pretty decent... as they went back then. It was one of those contraptions that could be taken out of its case and rack mounted.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-02-2009, 07:57 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
It is why I had more than 5fL of light available on a 38' wide screen with just a 4500W lamp. No compromise in standards...the customer got everything.

You won't for long. I would have gone the 6kw route since the lamp cost is only about 50 bucks more. You won't have enough headroom to use the constant brightness feature over the life of the lamp because the short gap lamps tend to darken more then normal lamps do, especially near the end of life. Also you're at the lower end of the brightness spectrum... AND I can very definately say that 3-D does look better when it's brighter... around 7 fl to be exact. You won't begin to see any washed out color effect until about 9fl. Good luck getting 7fl out of a Dolby 3-D system unless you're on an 18 foot wide screen. When exhibition does raise the brightness standard you're sunk. Also, if you curve your 1.5 gain screen so you can meet smpte illumination specs then you've probably also lost more pixels than you should have in the process. You can't curve a screen very much in the digital world without loosing lots of pixels.

All the 3-D installs I've done have been incredibly sucessful at turning a profit. And that was with some pretty measly films... Journey and Bolt. Even My Bloody Valentine didn't do too bad.

Jack,
I'll try to find pictures of one of those Ampex's. Ampex also made a portable 1" type C and Nagra even made a 1" type C machine with Ampex's help. Both of these were however truely portable.

Mark

[ 03-02-2009, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Mark Gulbrandsen ]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-02-2009, 08:01 AM:

are we not wandering way off topic

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-02-2009, 10:12 AM:

quote: Gordon McLeod
are we not wandering way off topic

We have to discuss something until we hear if Ben got his refund or not and personally Chinese projectors are worth discussing!

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-02-2009, 01:52 PM:

Here are three portable AMPEX VTR units

The AMPEX 3000, it was a designed for backpack usage, Unit was QUAD format with using 2inch tape

And the AMPEX VPR-20, 1 inch "C" portable unit, helical scan with the reels stacked on one another.

..and the NAGRA/AMPEX VPR-5, 1 inch unit, helical scan

-Monte

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-02-2009, 01:59 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
You won't for long. I would have gone the 6kw route since

Actually, I've done some extensive measurements on the CDXL45 (multiple ones)...it drops about 10% of its light in the first 50 or so hours and then doesn't drop another 10% for about 1200-hours...it is the most stable lamp I've come across (light/hour). In fact, I've plotted it increasing lumen output near the 175-hour mark and again near the 400-hour mark.

There is nothing precluding us from going to a 6K in the future. Thus far, the CDXL-45 has done just fine going between 2D and 3D with different current settings too. It does seem to be a very magical lamp.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Also you're at the lower end of the brightness spectrum

Wrong again...with 3D specified at 3-5fL...we are at the upper-end of the spectrum. In fact, on Coroline, they were targeting 4.5fL...we hit that with no problem and had headroom and should be able to achieve that well into the lamp's life (over 1K hours).

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
AND I can very definately say that 3-D does look better when it's brighter... around 7 fl to be exact. You won't begin to see any washed out color effect until about 9fl.

Welcome to Mark's opinions...not the movie maker's. If the studios wanted more light, all they had to do was specify it. In fact, Coraline specified not more than 5.5fL. since 3 is the bottom end of things (by specification), then what you propose is to have a light that is more than double. Your opinion clashes with the reality of the situation, you can't have unsaturated colors if they are being shown at double brightness. Your statement about 7fL is about as worthless as one saying that showing 2D stuff at 28fL looks better...it isn't how the moviemaker saw it when they approved it, more to the point, it is wrong.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Good luck getting 7fl out of a Dolby 3-D system unless you're on an 18 foot wide screen. When exhibition does raise the brightness standard you're sunk.

We'll cross that bridge if it ever arrives. For now 7fL is too high. With a CDXL-60, my numbers show I should be able to top out at nearly 8.5fL for most of its life for flat and closer to 6.3fL for Scope. It would be worse if we merely zoomed the lens for Scope.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Also, if you curve your 1.5 gain screen so you can meet smpte illumination specs then you've probably also lost more pixels than you should have in the process.

That is one sore point in curved screens for DCinema. For film cinema, I have tools at my access to deal with curved screens that do not exist yet in the digital world. Hopefully, the DCinema lenses will catch up with film some day. The problem is clearly worse in "Scope" than in Flat. No complaints yet...nothing critical (captions, subtitles...etc) seems to be in danger of being cut off. I would prefer if DCI would allow image warping to deal with keystone/curves...just throwing away data seems like the worse of two evils for motion pictures.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
All the 3-D installs I've done have been incredibly sucessful at turning a profit. And that was with some pretty measly films... Journey and Bolt. Even My Bloody Valentine didn't do too bad.

You must have customers that don't report their grosses then...nationally, 3D does not pay for itself and is doing worse and worse as the installed base is diluted by new-builds.

And Gord...how can one have a serious conversation with these Chinese projectors? If something sounds too good to be true, it normally is. Only an idiot would have bought a Horizon and not think it would fall apart. It isn't like the domestic projectors (pick one) are that expensive for the money they generate. Even name-brand imports are practically free to run over their life spans (that exceed the average theatre).

Hopefully, they'll get their money back but I wouldn't bet on it.

Steve

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-02-2009, 02:56 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
And Gord...how can one have a serious conversation with these Chinese projectors? If something sounds too good to be true, it normally is. Only an idiot would have bought a Horizon and not think it would fall apart. It isn't like the domestic projectors (pick one) are that expensive for the money they generate. Even name-brand imports are practically free to run over their life spans (that exceed the average theatre).

Hopefully, they'll get their money back but I wouldn't bet on it.

Steve

Well we can try to have a conversation about them, without bringing D-Cinema into the fray in any event. [Big Grin]

I feel for those who are trying to deal with that junk, and also for the one person at F-T who is trying valiantly to defend them.

I've said it before in reference to these machines, in response to a comment by that person, who pointed out the excellent light output, etc.:

The best light, steadiest picture, or sound quality (SDDS anyone?) doesn't mean SHIT if the freakin equipment can't go more than a day without breaking down!!

In today's climate, if you have repeated cancelled shows, you can kiss your business goodbye as once a customer is soured by an experience at your venue, THEY ARE NOT COMING BACK..EVER.

As for Benjamin's "dealer", I sincerely hope he discloses who it is and outs them on the "Deadbeats In The Industry" thread.

Posted by Joshua Waaland (Member # 287) on 03-02-2009, 04:00 PM:

quote: Ian Parfrey
This isn't a dump on Chinese equipment but it is built to a price-period. You pays your money, you gets your dues.

Sure it is. I can't remember EVER seeing anything come from China in my lifetime that had any decent amount of quality to it. They make cheap products for cheap prices for a throw away society.

Everyone wants cheaper products and higher wages so companies are forced to have things made overseas with cheap labor and cheap materials. There is no reason people should be making over twenty dollars an hour at auto factories in the US pushing a button then sitting down to read the paper for the rest of their shift. I have been in enough of them to see it first hand and known plenty of people that do it. Then everyone is wondering why cars cost $30-$40,000 but are still junk.

Everyone bags on Wal-Mart for supporting the Chinese market and not letting labor unions in. Why do people keep shopping there then? If people wouldn't buy there then Wal-Mart would be forced to do something else. The fact of the matter is everyone wants to buy at cheap prices but get paid the big bucks when they go to work and not do anything for their pay.

The company I work for even has a small factory over there that makes some of our consumables. It is a very heavy product yet we can make it over there, ship it here and still undercut any domestic manufacturer's price by a decent margin. I don't like it but unfortunately this is how you have to survive in today's business world. The rest of our products are manufactured in Toronto and we cannot compete with all of the foreign knock-offs that have come on the scene in the last five years. I used to see customers that cared about quality and sometimes I still do, but once the requisition hits the purchasing agent's desk, the penny pinchers have the last say and they usually buy cheap foreign crap. The best part is after about a year or so they sometimes end up buying ours anyways because of all the downtime they experience with the cheap stuff.

The president of our company spends a lot of time overseas and some of it in China. One of our engineers is also Chinese and I have gotten to talk with both of them at length about the corruption of the Chinese political system and their business practices. If the stories that I have heard are true, they will do just about anything to make a buck even if it's unethical.

Get your money back on that foreign Horizon crap and buy something better for cheaper. Even a rebuilt Century would be light years ahead of that junk and would cost half as much.

Keep your eye out and check out ebay. There is a ton of stuff coming out of the theaters in the past year from people switching to digital. I have bought a lot of stuff from large chains that have switched over and are selling off all of their film equipment. Just look at all of the Dolby CP-500 units on ebay in the last three weeks. Previous to that they were few and far between. Now they are a dime a dozen but are still fetching a good price. Six months from now they will have lost their value because they are flooding the market. I have seen equipment on ebay go from the thousands one month, to hundreds the next. DTS units used to fetch $2,500 or more a year or two ago but you can't get $750 for one on ebay now even if it has the reader with it.

[ 03-02-2009, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: Joshua Waaland ]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-03-2009, 08:46 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
with 3D specified at 3-5fL...

The reason 3-5 is the spec is because thats the realistic amount of light one could get out of the scaled down set of DLP chips according to DCI without running the lamps all the time at maximum power. Now with new full frame DLP able to be factored in it'll bring the brightness up a bit. Use of the proper projector is also an advantage. Although those right angled lamphouses may afford some protection to the Dolby Wheel that extra mirror does have an effect on light level. Many of those are hot mirrors and so as they fade the light level declines gradually while the CLO sensor tries to make up for it... eventually it can't.

quote: Steve Guttag
Welcome to Mark's opinions...not the movie maker's. If the studios wanted more light, all they had to do was specify it.

Eh, Wrong! Not my opinion. Its DCIP's opinion. Perhaps you should think about attending the DCIP meeting in Burbank comming up that will allow you to see 3-D run at all different light levels timed for it and not. IN fact a fellow that did all the spec work highly reccomended to me that I run things at 7fl. It works just fine and looks far better and results in far less eye strain than a 5fl Dolby 3-D system. Colors are well maintained up to about 7.5 fl.

One thing is very clear and that is that 3-5 fl is way too dim for an enjoyable watch... I'm at a site with Dolby 3-D that is at about 4.8 fl and I wouldn't want to watch a show there. So yes, I'll continue to vie for Silver screens and Master Image. At least the eye strain is minimized, the image is watchable and the filter wheel doesn't cost as much as a down payment on a new summer cabin.

I agree but not 100% on the image warping thing. If the chips were larger say around 3K so we had pixels to waste then it would be fine. Otherwise image warping is going to get you more or less the exact same pixel loss as using the masking. Or if you warp on the 2K chips you'd have to scale things down while you warp so you wouldn't loose the sides, then you loose resolution. Either way its loose loose.

Only time will tell on your lamps... that hasn't been my experience with the 6k's though nor has the local chain running about 50 projectors seen that sort of consistancy(out of any brand lamp).

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-04-2009, 05:10 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Eh, Wrong! Not my opinion. Its DCIP's opinion. Perhaps you should think about attending the DCIP meeting in Burbank comming up that will allow you to see 3-D run at all different light levels timed for it and not.

Cool...do you have any of that in writing in the form of a specification from a distributor? I've seen the documentation that does not specify light levels that high for as recent a movie as Coraline...their max was 5.5fL.

The realities are...if a movie is timed for 4.5fL than running at 7fL CAN'T look better in terms of highs to lows because there won't be any lows...the black levels come up with the whites..thems the facts and you can't get around it. Then again, you are working with Silver screens so you have 7fL in the center and only 3.5fL once you are a mere 20-degrees off center...perhaps that is why you don't see the black leve issue. Then again, color satuation again zooms up when you nearly double the output...at one point on the screen. No matter how you dance around it, the image is wrong.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
One thing is very clear and that is that 3-5 fl is way too dim for an enjoyable watch

Agreed. 3D does make the image suffer in that respect. Everything has a bit of an overcast look to it. There is a reason that 14fL is the white level on 2D digital. At least on Dolby, with a proper screen, it is 3-5fL everywhere...not 1-5 on a typical silver screen installation or 1.5-7fL in your installations.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I agree but not 100% on the image warping thing. If the chips were larger say around 3K so we had pixels to waste then it would be fine. Otherwise image warping is going to get you more or less the exact same pixel loss as using the masking.

This is true...however, the loss is in the resolution, not in the critical information. That is, subtitles or other valuable image is kept on the screen or prevented from appearing skewed, warped, slanted....etc. A reasonable trade off. If there were 3K chips, so much the better. And if they had 4K chips, they would approach film's resolution...for the worst 35mm release format.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-04-2009, 05:59 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Cool...do you have any of that in writing in the form of a specification from a distributor? I've seen the documentation that does not specify light levels that high for as recent a movie as Coraline...their max was 5.5fL.

Nope, but the reccomendation is straight from the DCI guys. I highly reccomend that you attend that meeting... I believe it's next week though.

Its true when you crank the light level up that the black to white raises a bit but then put the glasses on and its just about back to normal. This is just gobs easier on the eyes and much more enjoyable to watch than a 5fl show is. Specs are very definately not always a good thing in and of themselves and sometimes bending them a bit is very advantageous.

quote: Steve Guttag
And if they had 4K chips, they would approach film's resolution...for the worst 35mm release format.

I beg to differ on the release print aspect of the whole thing. At best a very good release print these days can make if you're lucky 2K comparable resolution... many are even worse than that! A really good wet gate print done on a step printer might make 4K if everything in the lab is exact. Quality Lab work is fast becomming a lost art and it painfully shows in todays release prints. One of the worst looking release prints of lately was the last Pink Panther installment. It looked like it was either lensed with a Bolex 16mm or shot with a prosumer video camera. It was film garbage at it's finest example! To me the 2K system makes far more sense than touch and go release prints like that and at least 2K is consistant in sharpness and color. If the labs can clean up their act then I'm all for putting D-Cinema to sleep permanently... but that'll never happen.

P.S. if you were to do any kind of image warpping on 4K then you'd need about a 6K imaging system to be able to maintain that 4K rez!

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-04-2009, 06:46 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I beg to differ on the release print aspect of the whole thing. At best a very good release print these days can make if you're lucky 2K comparable resolution

I just love it when you beg...or is that Phil?

No argument that release prints vary all over the place. An EK print will pretty easily hit 4K resolution on 1.85...a release print...maybe...but nowhere near 2K unless the print is plumb defective.

Now move over to Scope...oops...with film, more resolution, with digital less resolution.

And we are not even into color, contrast...etc.

I'm not for putting DCinema to rest for even if labs were perfect, I would hope DCinema could some day surpass film...I've always been about putting the best show out. Then I hope that they stop shooting in Super-2.39...it looks awful. To my way of thinking...shoot in 5/65 regardless of release format...start with the best image possible.

Steve

PS Horizon (had to put this thread back on topic [Wink]

Posted by Andrew Bangs (Member # 4938) on 03-04-2009, 10:38 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
PS Horizon (had to put this thread back on topic

Right...

Posted by Benjamin Speed (Member # 5160) on 03-05-2009, 08:27 AM:

Hello,

Thanks to everyone for their comments and support. Before we pursue a refund for the machine, we are gathering more information from the dealer to see if the swap is worth our while. Here are some answers they supplied for our questions:

1) Would there be any cost to us for this swap? No.

2) Is any of the equipment rebuilt, or is it all just used? Used.

3) What year was this projector manufactured? ?

4) Do you know how many hours the projector has on it? How many? Unknown

5) Can you tell me what kind of theater this came from? Multiplex, art house, 2 screen? Unknown

6) What kind of lamp house and rectifier would come with this projector? Orcon 2k

7) Does this Century have an R3 sound head? ?

8) Will the lenses and bulbs we currently have fit this Century projector? Yes

9) How old is the AW-3 platter? Does it have removable brains? Get S/N? Brains. The platters are probably 10-12 years old. We had 70 of them with removable brains but sold them all recently; the only ones left do not have removable brains.

10) In my research of rebuilt Centuries I’ve found the price to be below what was paid for the new 5565. Would you be able to include a make-up table and or possibly include some hours of service or even better some kind of warranty to make up the difference? We sell new Horizon systems for about the same price as used domestic systems.

11) Can you send me the dimensions of this equipment? One concern is space and we just want to make sure it will fit. ? Our technician says it's tight but will fit.

12) What kind of time frame would be involved if this swap were to move forward? How long from when we make a decision would it take to complete the swap and installation? Obviously scheduling for all parties would need to be consider, mainly our technicians and yours. Equip available now; Our technician to coordinate schedule.

13) Finally, just so we can give our superiors complete information, what is your return policy? And why would we not be able to get a full refund and return the equipment? Horizon return policy published on-line at www.horizonprojection.com. I've never seen a projector company with a refund policy; we exchange or refund unused lenses with a re-stocking charge.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-05-2009, 09:20 AM:

quote: Benjamin Speed
Is any of the equipment rebuilt, or is it all just used? Used.

Didn't you purchase a NEW PROJECTOR?????

quote: Benjamin Speed
6) What kind of lamp house and rectifier would come with this projector? Orcon 2k

Almost no parts are available for ORCON with the exception of the reflector which you can get from Optifirm. This is a bad deal!

quote: Benjamin Speed
9) How old is the AW-3 platter? Does it have removable brains? Get S/N? Brains. The platters are probably 10-12 years old. We had 70 of them with removable brains but sold them all recently; the only ones left do not have removable brains.

Again... Not a good deal! This is perhaps a 500 buck platter at best. Its also between 15 and 20 years old minimum. The motors will probably need to be overhauled.

As a dealer WE WOULD GiVE YOU A FULL REFUND if you were unhappy would substantiate why. This has never happened to us however we have swapped out to different equipment on a couple of occasions where the customer was uncomfortable with the initial equipment.

You're basically getting a pile of pulled as-is equipment that is fairly old, some is obsolete with basically no parts availability. I'm dating this gear to be around 20+ years by the non-removable AW-3 brains and ORCON Lamphouse.

It may actually be time to consult an applicable attorney!!

Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-05-2009, 10:13 AM:

I think there would be little legal action possible since their policy is fairly clear on their site and I would assume the purchase contract may also contain similar wording.
Local state laws may be different but I doubt that you would have much luck internationally

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-05-2009, 10:44 AM:

Mark and I actually agree on this one (regarding the potential "deal").

I quickly scanned over their warranty...other than "striving" for 100% satisfaction...where does it say they will take anything back? They say, within a year of purchase they will exchange parts, as-needed.

Steve

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 03-05-2009, 11:30 AM:

And it looks like from their Policies page, there is no guaranteed return.

I see a nasty fight on your hands.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-05-2009, 12:19 PM:

Isn't there an implied warranty, though, if the dealer picks the equipment?

If I go to a dealer and tell him that I want to do X and he sells me equipment that he claims will do X, don't I have some recourse if the equipment demonstrably fails to serve the purpose for which it was sold? Isn't the customer paying for the dealer's knowledge of the product and his assurance that it will function as intended?

Now, this does not mean that I can go to a dealer with a "shopping list" of mismatched or junk equipment and then complain that the equipment was poorly specified. That would be entirely my fault. But if the customer asks the dealer to sell him something that will serve his needs and the equipment that he is sold does not do this, then I would hope that a reputable dealer would make good on the deal with either a refund or a mutually agreeable replacement of defective equipment.

Since we don't know what the original poster asked the dealer to provide, it's hard to know if he should feel entitled to a refund.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-05-2009, 12:59 PM:

quote: Benjamin Speed
1) Would there be any cost to us for this swap? No.

2) Is any of the equipment rebuilt, or is it all just used? Used.

3) What year was this projector manufactured? ?

4) Do you know how many hours the projector has on it? How many? Unknown

5) Can you tell me what kind of theater this came from? Multiplex, art house, 2 screen? Unknown

6) What kind of lamp house and rectifier would come with this projector? Orcon 2k

7) Does this Century have an R3 sound head? ?

8) Will the lenses and bulbs we currently have fit this Century projector? Yes

9) How old is the AW-3 platter? Does it have removable brains? Get S/N? Brains. The platters are probably 10-12 years old. We had 70 of them with removable brains but sold them all recently; the only ones left do not have removable brains.

10) In my research of rebuilt Centuries I’ve found the price to be below what was paid for the new 5565. Would you be able to include a make-up table and or possibly include some hours of service or even better some kind of warranty to make up the difference? We sell new Horizon systems for about the same price as used domestic systems.

11) Can you send me the dimensions of this equipment? One concern is space and we just want to make sure it will fit. ? Our technician says it's tight but will fit.

12) What kind of time frame would be involved if this swap were to move forward? How long from when we make a decision would it take to complete the swap and installation? Obviously scheduling for all parties would need to be consider, mainly our technicians and yours. Equip available now; Our technician to coordinate schedule.

13) Finally, just so we can give our superiors complete information, what is your return policy? And why would we not be able to get a full refund and return the equipment? Horizon return policy published on-line at www.horizonprojection.com. I've never seen a projector company with a refund policy; we exchange or refund unused lenses with a re-stocking charge.

Benjamin, get an attorney RIGHT NOW and sue that asshole dealer!! And be sure to post their name on the "Deadbeats In the Industry" thread!!

My answers to their answers:

1: Damn right there better not be any charge.
2: Ripoff again, used equip. can be had for a LOT less than the $13k you paid; it's possible to get a Christie package NEW for that price;
3: They are dumbasses. A search with the serial numbers can get that info;
4: That is difficult to answer as it may have been around in several different booths..the first honest thing those jackalopes have said so far;
5:Bullshit, they should be able to tell you the last known location of that equipment..unless they stole it or otherwise bought it under shady means. It sounds like they're trying to give you back your old equipment.
6: See Brad's post above, ORC is JUNK!! And as Mark pointed out, it's parts are NLA. (No Longer Available)
7: Total dumbasses if they can't even tell what kind of soundhead it is. Sheesh.
8: Big whoop. The lenses are important and of course they'll fit virtually ANY projector out there. As for the bulbs, if they sold you the cheap Chink bulbs with the projectors, throw them out and get Christies.
9: An AW3 without removable brains is worth about $200 at most. It will need motors rebuilt as Mark has said and probably updated control cards. Total ripoff. I can get AW3's with removable payouts for around $500-800max.
10:We sell new Horizon systems for about the same price as used domestic systems. Who the fuck are these people!!! Even more proof that they're ripoff artists!! And after the royal [sex]

you have already had at their hands, I sure as hell wouldn't trust them to service ANY of my equipment..I wouldn't let them unstop a toilet!!
11: Not an issue really. A projector on base like Simplex LL# or Century's equivalent and a compact lamphouse will take up less space that the Horizon junk.
12: A competent tech can do it in less than a single day..any longer than that and they don't know what they're doing.
13: Fuck their policy. They sold you unserviceable crap and you are entitled to a FULL refund, and if your state law permits it, you can sue for loss of income and other damages.

It's a good thing I don't live there, as I would be at that "dealer" and raising all kinds of hell...

Do us ALL a big favor and TELL US WHO IT IS!!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-05-2009, 02:18 PM:

It looks like from their web sites that all transactions are actually done offshore so any legal recourse would probably be useless.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-05-2009, 03:41 PM:

quote: Gordon McLeod
It looks like from their web sites that all transactions are actually done offshore so any legal recourse would probably be useless.

Gordon, it doesn't matter where the equipment came from, if the DEALER is based here in the U.S., they will be subject to all laws including that of mercantibility and all other implied warranties.

And if they aren't licensed to practice business in that state or here in the US they are in HUGE trouble.

That dealer's best option is to give a full refund, take back that equipment and disappear before the whole thing caves in on them.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-05-2009, 04:11 PM:

Any manufacturer can sell to an end user directly from anywhere in the world
They can even have sales agents who reside in the receiving country and people to install or service under contract but they would not hold any liability as I am pretty sure that the sales contract will be between the end user and the factory from what information is on their web site
they made a mistake of not buying from a reputable dealer who provides a value added service

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 03-05-2009, 06:48 PM:

We bought 6 of those xenon lamps with the brand name of CineLite on them for $1,000. The bulbs we bought looked identical to the one pictured. Two failed at around 200 hrs., the others all failed to strike at about 930 hrs., no explosions, just either went out during a run or failed to strike. Even at the very low price not a good value.

Posted by Joshua Waaland (Member # 287) on 03-05-2009, 08:00 PM:

Benjamin,

The other guys are right, you should out this dealer so nobody else gets screwed by their bad dealings. They are trying to take advantage of your lack of knowledge of the equipment, plain and simple. It's like when a person takes their car to a garage and the mechanic feeds them some line of BS jargon just to make a buck because they don't understand cars.

Try to get your money back. Regardless of what the manufacturer's website says, the dealer should have some kind of return policy or responsibility to make you happy. If they don't refund your money or get you into something comparable in price, out them on here and get a lawyer. That crap he is trying to sell you isn't worth $1,500 tops! No where near the $13,000 you paid! In the end he laughs all the way to the bank.

Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 03-05-2009, 08:35 PM:

The AW3 non removable brain plate platters are easily damaged by booth monkeys. The print has to be lifted up over the brain plate to move it. Booth monkeys tend to whack, bang, bend, and break most of the parts off of the brain plates. The most common problem is a bent feed out arm when bent badly enough will not return to the proper position. This causes other problems. I'd say stay away from this platter as well as the ORC lamphouse. The Century projector head is reputable; however, how do you know if the bearings are shot or what other problems it may have.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-05-2009, 10:20 PM:

I absolutely agree... this dealer should be exposed!!! Help prevent this from happenning to someone else down the road.

Mark

Posted by Tristan Lane (Member # 1169) on 03-06-2009, 12:02 AM:

Wow, This thread makes me want to go out and buy Horizon projectors. (sarcasm for those who can't tell)

Can they really be THAT bad??? Worse than Monee or Cinecita? I was these projectors at ShoWest a few years back. I spent a couple of minutes looking over the machine and then moved along. You could tell just by looking at the machine quality that there would be problems down the road.....

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-06-2009, 04:08 AM:

quote: Eric Robinson
The AW3 non removable brain plate platters are easily damaged by booth monkeys

BUT, if you teach a booth monkey how to move prints from an AW3 ... CORRECTLY ... (along with making a board out of 5/16" finished plywood 36 inches square with an 8 inch wide groove cut out to the middle of the board so the board can still slide under the print and the groove is wide enough so the brain can go inbetween the groove. Thus, when you lift the board, it goes over the brain without any bumping into the brain), these old AW3's are just as reliable as the "R" series since there is no basic difference between the two.

quote: Eric Robinson
I'd say stay away from this platter as well

Don't give any rap how bad AW3's are - I'd rather work on a AW3 any day of the week than STRONG platters (and I don't mean to flair up STRONG products in the first place cuz I have to work with them in my 5 days of work and they themselves don't give me any fits at all,) and don't use the excuse that the booth monkeys are destroying these platters since people, like monkeys, have to be trained with time and patience to perform their tricks correctly.

Sorry about my rant on this one - I like AW3s real well. - Monte

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-06-2009, 08:44 AM:

Monte,

I don't think any of us here were giving the AW-3 a bad rap. It's just that in the real world... were you teach a booth monger something and they forget it 5 min later... then the fixed payout heads are a bad thing.... I don't service any locations that have a booths manager like you... Robert is very fortunate you're around!! I was using the fixed heads to date how old they possibly are.

Mark

Posted by Benjamin Speed (Member # 5160) on 03-06-2009, 09:46 AM:

I appreciate everyone's support and suggestions. I am going to hold off on giving any names until the matter is settled. I'm hoping in two weeks the whole matter will be resolved, and I can pass on the name of the dealer. In the meantime, don't buy Horizon.

Also in the meantime, our board of directors is taking all suggestions for replacements if we are to get a full refund. Does anyone have suggestions of what to get for a small booth? Or does anyone have experience with digital technology (broadband servers) that they could recommend? If we do stick with film, I like the comment about not having platters. Before the Horizon projector we had two upright Century projectors with Strong lamphouses (only if we had those rebuilt [Frown]

). I'm even open to one good upright projector with an intermission. How do you guys feel about intermissions?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-06-2009, 01:23 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
were you teach a booth monger something and they forget it 5 min later... then the fixed payout heads are a bad thing....

Thx Mark for the reply. True, it was like that when I came on board, but eventually, we weeded out the dead wood and got things under control. Thus, my ignorance really shows on that one where it seems that no control is around and situations seems to run away rampant.

No wonder why digitial conversion are on the upswing in some markets ....

thx-Monte

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 03-06-2009, 03:28 PM:

As another non-profit art house my advice is to start with the 35mm, two machines, good lenses and good sound (good mono is better than bad stereo and you can upgrade later). As others have said you can get good rebuilt Century's (or Simplexes) from various people on this forum, or from others who are not.

As for digital, for your purposes you're not going to go (and I doubt you can afford) full blown 2k. You can still have some (let's call it) video content (DVD's, blueray, HD cam etc) if you get a good video projector. Ironically, the video projector with lens may cost more than the rebuilt 35mms

You may want to explore Emerging Pictures video program. It doesn't work for us, but may be nicely suited for you.

One projector with intermission? NO. But the advantage of having two machines is you can run with and intermission in an emergency if one of the machines goes down. We've had to do it and the audience is very forgiving, as long as you tell them about it before they pay for a ticket. If you have a sign up in the BO, you will have to point to the sign and ask "Have you read this" but no one is going to walk away. And the older audiences enjoy a potty break;>

Now if the popcorn machine goes down, you're in trouble;>

Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 03-06-2009, 09:20 PM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
BUT, if you teach a booth monkey how to move prints from an AW3

Right, you are Monte! These platters are built like a brick [bs]

house. The platters are not at fault when they get abused. Unfortunately sometimes there are those booths which are not run professionally and the (untrained) booth monkeys have their way with the equipment. This doesn't happen in all cases so I guess I would rephrase my comment by saying that the non removable brain plates can be damaged if the staff is not trained or equiped properly.

Funny thing about Strong and Christie platters, I like both of them equally. Although it is quite apparent which one is better engineered, it is also more complicated. The less complicated of the two is so simple, you have to admire it.

Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 03-06-2009, 09:30 PM:

Please do not consider intermissions. Our Downtown Summer Film series (that has been going on for about 30 years or so now) always has an intermission. I think it has something to do with letting the older folks in the crowd get a restroom break.

Anyway, the breaks are usually at the end of a reel and are not always where it would make sense dramatically. The classic here was breaking right in the middle of the crop dusting scene in NORTH BY NORTHWEST.

So, PLEASE, invest in a system that will allow you to run the entire film without a break.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 03-07-2009, 01:57 AM:

Don't most companies give a 1 year guarantee on the equipment? If they break after 1 year I doubt there is much you can do about it to get your money back. BUT as others have correctly stated in this forum, you should claim for GOOD equipment if not new.
Demetris

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 03-07-2009, 05:29 AM:

Honorable people sell honorable equipment.

Simple problems are dealt with simply.

Never sell any equipment that you don't want to see again; it NEVER goes away.

As a dealer, I probably have at least 50,000 pounds of equipment that I would never sell in my warehouse. It is retained to provide parts for the less fortunate or, occasionally, I will sell some, but only to those who already have that make and model and who, presumably, know what to expect. Louis

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 03-25-2010, 09:48 PM:

It has been 383 days since the last post.

Posted by Benjamin Speed (Member # 5160) on 03-25-2010, 09:48 PM:

One year later and we have settled out of court and agreed to have the projector fixed to our satisfaction. The second tech that came was much better with the machine and got it to work after much tweaking and parts replacements. We have Emerging Pictures for digital films off of a server (which we are not renewing due to the cost), and are using the Horizon sparingly for school vacation films only, at the moment. We signed off on the machine, but I still would not recommend it to anyone. To find the timing sweet spot on this machine is the trick to keep it running, as long as everything else doesn't break.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-25-2010, 10:10 PM:

I am sorry to hear that and promise you will have another horror story with that crap to share again soon. [Frown]

Your board of directors deserves a big thumbs down for accepting the settlement and signing off on the machine.

Now can you at least do us the favor of finally outing that dealer before anyone else gets the same [sex]

you guys got?

Situations like this emphasize how much closer to the end the whole exhibition industry is....

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 03-25-2010, 10:28 PM:

It is never too late to do the right thing. . . .get rid of the Horizons. Agree: should have taken even a partial settlement and bought something robust/decent. . . and repairable. Think you have had trouble up to now? Wait 6 years and try to get these repaired! Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-25-2010, 10:50 PM:

He won't have to worry because in 6 years there will be little film left in distribution. HE will be more worried on how to aquire D-Cinema!

Mark

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-26-2010, 11:11 PM:

Mark, don't tell me you've gone back to the Dark Side... [evil]

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 03-27-2010, 06:26 AM:

So this is "Darth" Gulbrandsen? Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-27-2010, 08:08 AM:

I'm caught in the middle of this film---Digital time warp guys! I have to do both... But realistically... filum is a headdin out in the not too distant future. I may well be retired by then [Cool]

Mark

Posted by Benjamin Speed (Member # 5160) on 03-24-2011, 01:01 PM:

So by the time we got the Horizon fixed, we now have purchased a new digital projector system and are strictly digital now. If anyone wants to try this projector out, we will sell it for a song as long as you can pay for arranging it's packaging and shipping. UHAUL and it is yours. In the right hands, you could make this machine work for you, but as alluded to in previous posts, it is not the best-made machine and will take the right technician to get the most out of it. If you are interested, let me know.

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 03-28-2011, 11:36 AM:

I'll have to back up Horizon somewhat on this. The theater owner importing them was selling them as a cheaper alternative than the main brands. He knew of my dealings in China. It was a way to put film in new multiplexes being built that knew they would convert to digital when the industry agreed on a standard for digital.

I had a few issues during the install of the first multi-plex using them in the states. The factory from Harbin sent in engineers to help. It was hard dealing with an engineer who spoke very limited English. The projector worked fine, except for the 24fps exactly when you pushed the start button. There were some issues with the electronics and the platters. The platter issue I believe was resolved, it was an issue with the control plates.

Yes, these systems require "slightly" more babysitting, but when I left the install, I had a rock steady bright picture in every house.

Shortly after the install, I had a trip already arranged for southern China. The owner/importer in Texas and I talked and he paid for me and my girlfriend to go to Harbin (which I don't recommend unless you are wearing multiple layers of long underwear. I only had jeans and a leather coat). I was in the same boat, I had to try explain to my Chinese girlfriend how to explain technical work so she could translate to the senior engineers about the issues.

Rick

By the way, what is a Christy platter?

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 04-04-2011, 08:54 PM:

quote:
If anyone wants to try this projector out, we will sell it for a song as long as you can pay for arranging it's packaging and shipping. UHAUL and it is yours. In the right hands, you could make this machine work for you, but as alluded to in previous posts, it is not the best-made machine and will take the right technician to get the most out of it. If you are interested, let me know.

Are you f-ing nuts or something? Or on heavy drugs when you made that post? [Eek!]

Your best bet is to call a scrap metal dealer to haul that [bs]

away and you might get a few bucks for the scrap value.

I think that ranks as the most incredibly stupid thing I have seen posted on here in a long time!! [Razz]

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 04-04-2011, 10:09 PM:

^ Agreed (and that's saying something).

quote: Benjamin Speed 02-22-2009
After retiring two projectors (Century Projectors with newer Super Simplex lamp houses) from 1939, we decided to pursue a projector from Horizon, a Chinese company that uses Xenon bulbs. We knew we weren't getting a Cadillac, but we were hoping that at least it would run for 10-15 years until we cold invest in a larger digital/server system. Boy have we been disappointed. Since August, 2008, from replacing a sound head, aperture plate, reader cards, to parts failing and just recently breaking in half, the machine has been in repair for more days than it has been in service. Needless to say we have asked for the machine to be removed.

quote: Benjamin Speed 03-24-2011
If anyone wants to try this projector out, we will sell it for a song as long as you can pay for arranging it's packaging and shipping. UHAUL and it is yours. In the right hands, you could make this machine work for you, but as alluded to in previous posts, it is not the best-made machine and will take the right technician to get the most out of it. If you are interested, let me know.

Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 04-05-2011, 10:26 AM:

[bs]

I've had my fill of polishing turds. [bs]

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 04-05-2011, 04:04 PM:

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr
Your best bet is to call a scrap metal dealer

Tony, sadly I agree with you. I'm sure there is a surplus of other projectors piling up out in the theaters. If I lived near Maine, I would pick it up as a reminder of the work I did for them.

The factory really wanted to make the machine work right. What they didn't understand was the concept of 1 person operating 16 machines at once. When I was installing MegaSystems 8/70 machines in China, they had 5 people assigned to each projector. A tech who drew schematics of everything I installed, and took notes of everything, and 4 girls who ran the film. Every show they had 2 girls to thread, 1 by the sound rack and 1 to push the start button and check the projector.