Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Recommend me a dimmer

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-22-2009, 01:07 AM:

What's a good 3-step dimmer? Also, how the hell much does it cost?

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 03-22-2009, 01:11 AM:

Probably depends on what you need for wattage, Joe.

The Kelmar 2-channel dimmers work very well. You can put the stops where you want them, and set the timing from seconds to nearly a minute & a half. Mine have been running for 7 years with zero problems.

Don't remember what the cost is, but I don't remember them being that bad. Check with your supplier.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-22-2009, 02:31 AM:

I don't have direct contact with my supplier. I don't even know who my supplier is. Trying to recommend new dimmers to the owner and want to throw them a ballpark figure. The auditoriums are mostly small with one Large Giant Screen.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 03-22-2009, 06:51 AM:

Joe; I concur that the Kelmar is really good, reliable, and is also available as a 3 step. See Kelmar website; we are a Kelmar dealer. Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-22-2009, 09:03 AM:

I'll concur with any of the Kelmars. They are totally reliable. We are also a Kelmar dealer but give better pricing!!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-22-2009, 09:25 AM:

The Ash TEC8112 dimmer is probably one of the best [Smile]

The Hitech and the Smart were the worse
Lindsay Fairbanks are a little weird in there design
The Leigh is good as well

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-22-2009, 02:01 PM:

Gordon:

Yes, the TEC 8112 was a great dimmer, compact and rugged and very reliable. But wasn't that only a two-stage dimmer? (Bright and dim?) I last worked with them back in 1993. I do recall they had up to 4 output circuit breakers, don't remember if they were actually separate dimmer channels.

And what's so weird about the Lindsey-Fairbanks? It was a pretty good dimmer, very heavy though from the choke coils in the back can. (They were standard coil and core, not toroidals which would have been lighter in weight.)

One drawback we did discover with the L-F's though: if the load is shorted the triac assembly would fail violently and send 120vac through the control lines, we fried an LP Assoc. automation that way.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-22-2009, 03:36 PM:

Gee Mark...so you work for Wal*Mart too?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-22-2009, 05:32 PM:

The TEC was originally a 3 state dimmer up down preset with a double stacked card
All the ones sold into the us were a 4 state dimmer with either Triac or SSR outputs and optionaly flurescent dimming

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-22-2009, 05:40 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Gee Mark...so you work for Wal*Mart too?

Thats what our customers say... It apparently has something to do with volume and getting beter breaks on the cost... similar to Wal-Marts idea but down a different track.

Mark

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-22-2009, 07:43 PM:

Yep, and I have twelve of those Stanley Ash 8112 "Theatre Decorators" to play with.

The ones with the triple breaker were set up kinda interesting- one breaker was the mains breaker and the other two could be tied together so it could feed two locations at once..

And we do have dimmable flourscent light fixtures in our houses..being old Cineplex Odeon plexes.

Course, for Joe's interest is that he needs to check in the total wattage each house would use in lighting so he can get the right size of dimmer pak. Thus, if he has a giant screen house, he would need a dimmer pak (prob a pak that would have a triple triac in it) that could handle the megawatts that house would need.

-Monte

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-22-2009, 08:15 PM:

the reason for the secondary breakers is that often the dimmer was ordered as 2.4k 3.6k or 4.8k capacity and under the nec the maximum breaker size protecting a medium screw base lamp socket is 15amps so even a 2k dimmer needs 2 secondary 15amp breakers

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-22-2009, 08:39 PM:

Another vote for the Kelmar here. We have one and have had no problems in about 15 years at least.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
It apparently has something to do with volume and getting beter breaks on the cost... similar to Wal-Marts idea

I think Wal-Mart is far more ruthless than CLACO!

Posted by Tony L. Hernandez (Member # 3524) on 03-22-2009, 10:22 PM:

Joe, Give Allen Christiansen at Aster Seating & Audio (formerly Quality Cinema Supply, Bob Tankersley) in Denver a call, seeing as you're in my region. He's a great guy and should know exactly what you need and how to get it at a reasonable price.
He's always worked with me and my theaters and taken good care of us.

Posted by William T. Parr (Member # 677) on 03-23-2009, 05:35 PM:

I would also have to throw in my vote for the Kelmar dimmer. I ran two of them at the Cine 6 in Corpus. No problems at all. I am planning on being in the Denver area again between labor Day and the 11th. maybe I can stop by and look at your current place.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-23-2009, 07:03 PM:

I will also vote for the Kelmar! I've used them before and they are cool. The problem with Kelmar is that everything they sell is overpriced for what they are, it seems. I have also used LFI dimmers and they are fine if a bit weird, but they don't have buttons directly on them to press the level you desire so that usually confuses me for a good 45 seconds or so when I need to turn the lights up or down without the automation.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-23-2009, 08:55 PM:

Kelmar also has buttonless dimmers...called Architectual Dimmers.

Kelmar dimmers are NOT over priced...they are right priced and made here in the good ol' USA. What is the cost/year of owning a Kelmar dimmer. Do you really think Kelmar's folks are living like AIG bonus babies?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-23-2009, 09:42 PM:

For an automated house, I really like the blue "Lehigh Electric Movie Pack" dimmers that seem to be in every ex-GCC house. They are very flexible and adjustments are easy to make without having to open up the unit. Unfortunately, I don't believe that they are made anymore.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-24-2009, 01:28 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Do you really think Kelmar's folks are living like AIG bonus babies?

Wanna fight about it?

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 03-25-2009, 12:50 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
The problem with Kelmar is that everything they sell is overpriced

On what do you base that? Merely the numbers? Everything I've purchased from Kelmar is built like brick *houses and has required little or no attention. Their rewind benches are almost everywhere. Their dimmers don't quit. Their dowsers could probably pull 6 times the weight they're normally hooked up to (and sound like it). I've even seen a couple of their old, monaural amplifier packs around... unfortunately, still working very well. I think the first solar cell conversions I worked with were Kelmars.

Not everything is only worth having if it's the cheapest version you can get.

So there. [Razz]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-25-2009, 12:54 PM:

I didn't say they weren't any good!

Except for those mono amplifiers. They suck. That entire sound rack sucks.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-25-2009, 01:37 PM:

Agreed with Jack--Kelmar makes good stuff. None of it is very exciting, but it all works.

I actually don't mind the Kelmar mono sound systems, aside from the fact that all of them should have been upgraded to Dolby years (decades) ago. They are reliable. The pots don't go bad over time (at least not as far as I have seen). The 50-watt version is enough to fill a 700-seat house with sound if there's an A4 behind the screen. There's a 1/4" test jack to connect an RTA when doing A-chains. And the monitor amplifer is a built-in backup in case anything fails. It would be nice if they had a greater adjustment range on the projector inputs and some sort of electronic changeover logic, but that is a minor quibble.

I tend to make fun of theatre owners who still use stuff like this, but that doesn't mean that they aren't good products.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 03-25-2009, 03:24 PM:

I once serviced a 1700 seat theatre with a 15 watt Kelmar and an A-1X. With the very effecient speaker, it was way enough power.

BTW: no great gain adjustment was to force cheap owners to actually repair the soundhead, rather than to just turn down the loud one. Louis

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-25-2009, 03:48 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
Agreed with Jack--Kelmar makes good stuff. None of it is very exciting, but it all works

So I guess people think I said Kelmar makes bad stuff. Their dimmer excites me. Their rewind bench is good, but it only has a motor on one side and the table itself is particle board which ends up sagging after a few years. It is a nice table and much better than the Neumade which I currently have, but look at the price of a new one. It's over $1000 last I heard.

Kelmar also cut costs on their media cleaner. They have those tiny little thumbscrews instead of the custom fat ones that used to be on them. I hate those little flat round ones. Oh well, at least Kelmar sells it for much cheaper than Christie did when they were the distributor.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-25-2009, 04:11 PM:

lets be fair
there mono amps and stereo racks sucked
there rewind table in concept was great but the table top sags the motors have more brush issues than any other I have delt with and the control box is over engineered
There automations are far more trouble than ones like the TA10
there reverse scan readers have had the highest powersupply failure rates we deal with
yes they make nice products but they are not the best just my humble opinion

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-25-2009, 04:46 PM:

I only agree with one thing Gord posted... the reverse scan power suppliers are really bad... the new ones are fine though. I've replaced two ole ones this year so far...

Now on to the rest...

The mono amps... well they're mono... what do you want? Theya re among the most reliable mono amp systems ever built and with the built in spare amp you can just switch sides and keep going... if it ever does die.

The rewind benches... You're not suposed to let your 350 lb projectionists sit on them. We have more Kelmar benches in this area by far and I've had the least amount of problems with them. Want over engineering... look closley at the current Neumade rewind bench cluster fuck control box! And Joe... the Kelmar benches can be ordered with motor at both ends if desired.
Their automations are no more or less reliable than others of the type... and all microswitch/relay based automations are going to be experiencing ALOT MORE TROUBLE then usual since lead has been deleted out of switch contacts... Ditto for Strong PLatter micro switches!

Also there are but a handful of companies that provide the corteous support that Kelmar does. Thomas really knows how to take care of his customers like a gentleman.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-25-2009, 04:47 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
So I guess people think I said Kelmar makes bad stuff.

No, you implied that it was somehow over priced...and that is simply not correct. Over priced implies low value...As most others have noted, their stuff performs very well and lasts a long time...implying high-value.

quote: Joe Redifer
Their rewind bench is good, but it only has a motor on one side

You can have it with one or two motors, your choice and had been that way for as long as I can remember.

quote: Joe Redifer
and the table itself is particle board which ends up sagging after a few years.

Actually, it was worse than particle board, it was honeycomb board...

They've changed that...I don't have sagging problems. They also wrap the edge now with a molding so you don't have laminated formica peeling off. They've changed the leg design for MUCH faster assembly and rigidity. Their control box is now UL listed (with the largest UL badge I've ever seen...don't know the story there...I guess they were proud).

Is it over $1000...I would hope so. Just how many rewind tables do you think are sold per year? Just how can a company that is making low-volume equipment sell things at Wal-Mart made by the millions prices? In fact...is there anyone making a motorized rewind table for under $1K? If they are, is it legal (OSHA/UL)?

There is a time for custom hardware and a time when it just adds to the cost of things. The film cleaner is a very expensive piece in many eyes. If their thumb screws were custom (and likely were not), they would have to order how many of them? At two per film cleaner...how many would they have to sell to even get their nut back. Again, un-realistic if Kelmar or any Movie industry manufacturer wants to remain profitable.

BTW...Gord...I don't think I've ever had a Kelmar motor brush issue...I've had the variac wear out (Stancor), belts wear/shed and numerous shafts wear out. In fact, the shafts are the worst part of the whole table...the 5/16" ones bend if you look at them too hard.

As to their amplifiers...they are not great Hi-Fi, for sure but they have pleased a great many folks and are easy to service. Generally, it is their electrolytics that fail. There is one that is often inserted backwards and it fails (being used as a DC blocking cap to the input signal).

I agree, their stereo racks were very wanting in many respects. I've never liked any of their booth monitors.

As to their automations...I've had a mixed feeling about them. For what they were, they did just fine. They are rather clumsy now for handling anything but basic stuff. I absolutely HATE their current manual switches and the Series VII method of choosing the sound format is retarded.

Steve

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-25-2009, 06:05 PM:

actually the kelmar rewind motors have been a major failure over time almost as bad as the neumade bodine motors

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-25-2009, 07:08 PM:

Is it legal to sell a table for under $1000? That's a good one. So because Kelmar doesn't sell many tables at all, I should happily pay out the ass? I guess they need the money more than me, that's only fair! I could understand if they were selling it for more in other countries just so they could sell it for less here and undercut everyone else. I think that is called Dumping or something like that.

Their mono amps failed on us ALL THE TIME. We would have to take the extra amp out which served as a booth monitor and plug it in to be the speaker amp. Then those would eventually fail and we'd have no sound at all.

So Steve, even if a Honda Civic cost $38,000 and had rock solid reliability (which they do), you wouldn't say it was overpriced? That is not implying the Civic is a bad car, it is implying that they are asking perhaps a bit much for it. Well over $1,000 for a honeycomb board table which sags, one motor, some switches, a dial and some steel legs is pushing it. It couldn't cost them anywhere near that much to make, and this is in 1990's dollars I am talking here (when they were making much more of these tables to boot). I am glad that they improved their product, though. I hope Kelmar isn't going out of business like I hear Neumade is.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-25-2009, 07:17 PM:

Gord.... You do have pretty awful Hydro up there in some areas! I can't remembner the last time we had a Kelmar motor fail... even if they do they are rebuildable.

Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-25-2009, 07:39 PM:

actually we have very stable hydro
those motors just suck

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 03-25-2009, 08:52 PM:

Speaking of dimmers...anyone have wiring diagrams for the Hunt Electronics 3kw dimmer pack, it has three modules, the ID-30 dimmer module, MCIF/SPA control module and the AIFC-1/IFC-1 remote module...I have a couple setups and want to experimant with them, they were made in the late 1970s and they are quite robust with a very large torroid and SCR! As for the post...I recommend the Kelmar dimmer also, Thanks! John

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-25-2009, 09:28 PM:

Joe, it all depends on the situation. If Honda only had a market of say 5000 people for their car, then there is no way they could make it for $38,000 (nor could anyone else).

Ask anyone that has had to go through UL (or ETL) listing what it costs just for that...now spread that out over your potential sales. Ever priced out steel? It isn't cheap stuff, let alone bent up and painted steel.

Unfortunately, slave labor, no overhead (environmental or otherwise) and high volume has skewed your belief in what things are really worth.

I have no idea if Kelmar is going out of business but I highly doubt they have ever been living wealthy. They make good products for fair prices. And yes, when the market is small, you are going to pay that much more for it. That is true in any industry. But hey, you think it doesn't cost that much to make it...open Joe's rewinder's see if you can live off of you rewinders were everything is under a grand. BTW...the LIST price for a single motor table top is $318.00...so change out your sagging table if it pisses you off so...or make your own. So, what is the cost/year on a rewinder? $100/year? Big deal.

Steve

[ 03-26-2009, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: Steve Guttag ]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-26-2009, 12:09 AM:

Steve, if you've read my posts you'd know that I don't have a Kelmar table.

So I can finance one and pay $100 a year? I know what you are saying, but the cost/year thing doesn't do a whole lot for me unless something requires maintenance. Like the cost/year of owning a Strong projector would be xx amount of dollars due to changing oil, gate bands, etc. A cost per year for something bought outright which rarely needs anything replaced or fixed is like saying the cost per year for a nail is .000000000000001 cents.

And I never said Kelmar was "living wealthy" or are scam artists or anything else you will try to imply from my comments. You seem to think that I did because of the AIG comment as well. My comment only said "it seems" like they are overpriced. So much defensive anger in you, Steve. You don't happen to be associated with a Kelmar dealer, do you?

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 03-26-2009, 12:23 AM:

We've been using the dual motor table for 20 years now and no sagging problems. All original parts except the auto-shut off arm. It was either never installed or ordered. It was only just last summer that I installed it. I will be modifying it to install a counter top light for examining film when building up prints. I'll probably go ahead and replace or just lay down a new piece Formica while I'm at it.

We had one film cleaner until recently. I have since bought 4 more off ebay for really cheap. I have also found that the windshield washer hose that Autozone sells buy the foot is really good for replacing the rubber inserts on the rewind side of the cleaner. It fits snug on the shaft and isn't too big in the uncompressed state, so its real easy to slide the cores (film-tech or cardboard) off for changing. Just had to cut them a little longer so that when compressed they engage the core firmly. I can't remember the part# right now, but I'm sure Mike Blakesley can get it before I do.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-26-2009, 08:13 AM:

Joe, your nail example is why nobody really cares about the price of nails except contractors that buy them by the ton. They are effectively free from a owner's standpoint.

Most theatres do pay a bank and the cost of things, like rewinders are factored into that payment. Everything in a business should figure in its return on the investment. Some things are easy, some things are hard (say painting the walls in an office...how much more money does that generate).

I'm not angry at all with you but I do see an unrealistic skewing of perception when one thinks in terms of what China can do en mass versus what one has to do for a tiny market like cinema. When you are making very few things, the cost of each has to be higher to pay for not only the materials and the people to make it, but all of the design work that went into it, the overhead (shop, certifications...etc) and such.

BTW...Kelmar is by far not the most expensive rewinder out there nor are most of their products...they are typically in the middle of the road, price wise, with some a bit more, some a bit less. The fact that you noted that nobody seemed to be able to make a rewinder for under a grand should tell you that perhaps there is more to it in the big picture. Perhaps a Wolk rewinder with the washing machine motor hanging off a table you supply could be made that cheap...however, from a liability standpoint...the exposed belt plus the knob that will tear up your chest if you come near it while on would scare most companies away (as it should).

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-26-2009, 10:36 AM:

Ok, So far here are the scores....

Steve:4

Mark:3

Gord:2

Monte:1

Joe:0

Or this translates into:

Kelmar Dimmers: 10

Stan Ash Dimmers: 4 (they woulda been a 5 but they left the dam manual buttons off!)

Lindsey Fairbanks: 3

Lehigh: 3

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-26-2009, 01:08 PM:

Actually manual buttons are a option if you request it

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-26-2009, 03:17 PM:

Steve, you just described my Neumade PRT Ultra table to a T with your washing machine/exposed belt reference.

Mark, STFU.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-26-2009, 08:07 PM:

Neumade does cover the belt on the PRT...it is just that most take the belt guards off.

Steve

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-26-2009, 08:28 PM:

Interesting. I've never seen one with it covered. Got any pics lying around?

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 03-26-2009, 10:20 PM:

I don't know how to create a link to the page Joe, but look up your own topic, "How do I get my long shaft out of this hole?"

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-26-2009, 10:45 PM:

Joe's long shaft

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-27-2009, 01:02 PM:

quote: Gordon McLeod
Actually manual buttons are a option if you request it

Manual override buttons shold NEVER be an option on any dimmer!!

quote: Gordon McLeod
actually we have very stable hydro

I know darn well that Keith wold argue with you on that statement!