This is topic SIMPLEX X-L: Perfuct Focus? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 03-28-2009, 04:58 PM:
 
Okay, here's a list of what we have... I'll tell you the problem after [Smile]

Simplex XL (flat gate)
Superlumex 2500W lamp house
Schneider 105mm prime lens with ISCO ultrastar HD anamorphic attachment

The problem is that,
at a glance everything looks great! However on steady pictures you see horizontal smearing (like a sideways travel ghost), white light moving from the outside in. When moving up to the screen to inspect it, it almost looks like a blueish glow.

We used the string method to align the lamphouse, it may not be perfect but it should be fairly close. No matter what you do to the lamp house you cannot completely remove this phenomenon.

The lamp is set to draw 95amps, backing it down does not have any benefit.

Is this the best a flat gate/x-l can achieve, or are we missing something?
 
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 03-28-2009, 05:50 PM:
 
Maye the lens is not square to the film, causing chromatic aberration?
 
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-28-2009, 06:00 PM:
 
is it coming from one side only towards the centre
It might be possible that light is getting around the apperture assembly and catching the back element of the lens
with that long of focal length of lens the back element will be some distance from the film plane so there could be stray light getting in
 
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-28-2009, 07:01 PM:
 
How does it look in flat?

--jhawk
 
Posted by Dick Prather (Member # 1136) on 03-28-2009, 07:28 PM:
 
Couple of questions:
As John mentions, what does it do in flat?
Do you have the lens shield on the back of the 4" adaptor?
Could you be getting reflections from your port glass?
Dick
 
Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 03-28-2009, 07:38 PM:
 
we have an isco ultrastar 70mm for flat and it looks great. No sign of chromatic aberration and we made the lens mount perpendicular to the gate.

also, we know it isn't the port glass. The light smear is equal on both sides of the picture....

I'm not sure if I follow what is meant by a lens shield on the 4" adapter?

thanks guys!
 
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-28-2009, 08:06 PM:
 
Also, if you remove the anamorphic adapter?

--jhawk
 
Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 03-28-2009, 08:21 PM:
 
It was doing this with a different anamorphic as well. We just recently switched to the ISCO ultrastar HD anamorphic, more or less hoping to clear up all the issues. We did however at one point change from an isco prime to a schneider.....
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 03-28-2009, 08:36 PM:
 
We see this all the time when alignment of the lamphouse is not quite right. Lose the string method, use the scope aperture plate and the scope lens without the anamorphic. Use the method when you tune for equally dark corners, refocus the lamp, and then readjust the entire lamphouse.

BTW: flat gates on XL's are not good enough these days. Curve it to see real improvement! Louis
 
Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 03-28-2009, 09:06 PM:
 
I don't quite follow how this would work. If I darken all the corners equally how do I know how to move the lamp house? or will it all make sense when I start doing it?

A curved gate is something we've discussed before. Does anyone have a compatible used one they might be willing to part with at a reasonable cost?
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 03-29-2009, 06:55 AM:
 
Alignment occurs when all 4 corners darken at the same rate. Using your normal scope plate (no point in illuminating an area not used) adjust the bulb focus so a corner or two are slightly dark; adjust the lamphouse until 4 corners are equally dark. Refocus bulb. You will probably find a corner or two slightly dark; adjust, repeat, adjust repeat. At some point you will see all 4 corners darken together. Focus the bulb and you are finished.

I would bet against an inexpensive curved gate. They are worth more than the entire flat gate XL.

BTW: it might be possible to reuse the painted part of the gate. That was normal back in the 50's when curved gates were new. Also, with a curved gate, it is imperative that the 2 mounting rods be straight or you will be out of focus from side to side; not so with flat gate machines. (One of the few bad things about the XL.) Louis
 
Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-29-2009, 02:54 PM:
 
quote: Jarret Chessell
A curved gate is something we've discussed before. Does anyone have a compatible used one they might be willing to part with at a reasonable cost?
Jarret, look at page 3 or 4 of the Equipment for sale forum, I have a curved gate and trap assembly for sale there. It is low mileage from a screening room.

The Super Lumex Lamphouse isn't too bad, but I have found many where the reflector mount isn't aligned squarely to the base of the lamphouse, I have added springs and washers to the reflector mounts to cure that....wish I had pics of one of the worst ones as it's easy to do, just hard to explain over a forum...

The reason it's not square has to do with the casting used to support the reflector. Some are evidently poorly machined at the base.

See if you can find a tech in your area who's familiar with that issue and better yet, has a laser alignment tool for the lamphouse.

As Louis said, forget the string method. It's half-assed and will never get it accurately aligned.

The light shield on the 4" adapter is a sheet metal tube with a flanged base that attaches to the rear of that adapter with three screws. It will help, BUT in some cases where the lens needs to be close to the gate it will not be able to be installed (if the back of the lens sticks out beyond the end of the adapter) or in some cases the setting of the lens won't allow you to open the gate fully either without sliding the whole lens/adapter out a bit.
 
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-29-2009, 03:38 PM:
 
The issue they are having I doubt is regarding a curved gate as the shorter focal length lens for flat will typically have more issues with gate issues
Try removing the anamorph and see if the problem is still there on the backup by itself ( if it is I would rotate the backup lens 90 degrees and see if the flare rotates if not then I would start looking at spill light getting in
If it does rotate then you have a lens issue
 
Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 03-30-2009, 12:17 PM:
 
A news update to get everyone's brains going again!

We removed the anamorphic and we still had the blurring. We even tried putting the old prime lens in and saw the same thing. Rotating the lens didn't change anything either.

*cough* Gord, what are the odds of sending that laser...
 
Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 03-30-2009, 01:44 PM:
 
Well it could be a cracked lens (inside) but since rotating did no difference (rotating the white glare) then its definately not a cracked lens. I've seen the effect you mention with cracked lens at a cinema. Have you noticed if the smearing always happens at the same place or is it happening in random places on the screen? Have you tried using the flat apperture for the scope for testing to see if the smearing still exists? Does it only happens at the very edges of the image?
Demetris
 
Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-30-2009, 02:38 PM:
 
quote: Jarret Chessell
*cough* Gord, what are the odds of sending that laser...
Actually I brought up the laser..and no chance, as I don't own one. The guy I used to do contract work for has one.

They were incredibly expensive when new and are very hard to find used..I've been looking for one for quite a while.
 
Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 03-30-2009, 04:24 PM:
 
Ooops, sorry Tony, I didn't phrase that well. We were trying to get our hands on a laser the last time we saw Gord... I'm just trying to bug him [Smile]

However it looks like a laser might be very helpful for getting everything in check. It is looking like some unwanted light is getting into the optics

Also Tony, do you know for sure if your curved gate would fit into an old black x-l, and do you have any aperture plates available?

Thanks for all your help

[ 03-30-2009, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Jarret Chessell ]
 
Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-30-2009, 06:52 PM:
 
LOL No problem... [Smile]

Yes, it will fit nicely in an older black XL, and I have aperture plates available as well.. [Smile]
 
Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 04-01-2009, 02:15 PM:
 
I was wondering if the size of the spacer between the prime and the anamorphic has an impact oh how the light is scattering? Is there a method to determine what the size of the spacer should be?

Also, how does this lens shield work? I've never seen/heard of them before this. Where would you get one, or how could I mimic one to see if i need one? (blocking the light with your finger does seem to help remove the blur)
 
Posted by Troy Hilsman Powell (Member # 4326) on 04-05-2009, 02:13 PM:
 
For god's sake man get a curved gate.
 
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-05-2009, 04:54 PM:
 
A curved gate will make no difference in this instance
the curved gate will effect focus more so with short focus lens than with the longer focal lengths involved
Look at the Super or E7 they produced excellent focus
 
Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 04-06-2009, 01:11 AM:
 
We're going to try out a curved gate.... even if it doesn't work for clearing up this problem it should help improve pictures in other ways. (Perhaps a cleaner sharper blur?)
 
Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 04-07-2009, 12:42 AM:
 
Curved gate on its way to ya..be sure to read the email I sent for alignment instructions. [Smile]
 
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-07-2009, 01:17 AM:
 
quote: Gordon McLeod
Look at the Super or E7 they produced excellent focus

Boy! Did they ever, along with rock steady images! Almost kind of sad to have old machinery like this outdo the newer lines of projectors.
 
Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 05-02-2009, 06:57 PM:
 
Sorry about the delay on updating our focus conundrum.

We now have an incredibly clear and sharp blur!!
The curved gate that Tony helped us acquire is a wonderful piece of curved goodness! (Thanks Tony, I like the magnet you sent too)
You can see film grain from the booth across the entire screen.
The light blur is still there, but is not nearly as dominating as it was before. You can see the picture is very sharp within the blur of white light. On darker images you can't even really see it.

Just a curious question, has anyone ever seen light blurring like what we're experiencing occur because of a defective bulb?

I guess what we really need now is a laser alignment kit... does anyone know where we could locate one?

Thanks everyone for your help on this issue so far.
 
Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 05-02-2009, 07:26 PM:
 
Hah, I have to laugh at the words Simplex and Laser alignment in the same sentence. I watched this done in the factory on a Mega that was getting ready to ship overseas for me to install, and the Laser was so far off, (loose in the Collar, and unnoticed). HeHe, Sorry, just Laughing

When I worked for them (Strong), my cost was about 800 bucks, wasn't worth it, but I thought it would look cool in my tool bag!
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-02-2009, 09:39 PM:
 
Richard... can we assume the guy that was attempting to align your Megathingy had just assembled a Chicken Fryer and had gotten confused...

Try to find an Align-O-Tron. Greg Mueller used to make them but he moved away and has pretty much disappeared. Do a google for Mueller Atomics....

Mark
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-02-2009, 10:03 PM:
 
I have a spare one from Mueller's Atomics, used once. Email me if someone needs it. Its a great little tool.
 
Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 05-03-2009, 01:00 AM:
 
quote: Jarret Chessell
We now have an incredibly clear and sharp blur!!
The curved gate that Tony helped us acquire is a wonderful piece of curved goodness! (Thanks Tony, I like the magnet you sent too)

I had a bad moment when I saw that first sentence....

Glad to hear the gate made an improvement, and I take it the alignment was no problem.

Yes, it still sounds like a lamphouse alignment issue or you need those light shields. I'll try to get a picture of the shields to post here soon. The Simplex XL parts manual here on the site shows the light shield..page 42, part # P-2869

Look through that parts catalog and make sure you also have ALL of the shields for your dowser and sight box cover door..if any of those are missing that could also be a source of light leaks...

Also, any chance you can get a screen shot (use a trailer so the MPAA piracy police don't get their panties in a wad) so we can see what the blur looks like? It may give more insight into the problem...

quote: Richard Hamilton
Hah, I have to laugh at the words Simplex and Laser alignment in the same sentence. I watched this done in the factory on a Mega that was getting ready to ship overseas for me to install, and the Laser was so far off, (loose in the Collar, and unnoticed). HeHe, Sorry, just Laughing
I could really get some digs in re your comments about Simplex sir, but I will only say that laser aligning a lamphouse at the factory then shipping it is a waste of time. The bounces and jolts of shipping, especially to an overseas destination will throw the alignment off big time.

Laser alignment is only effective when the equipment is installed in it's final location.

I do agree with you though, that a loose collar and the tech not noticing is good for a laugh...and sadly typical of Strong's modus operandi lately...
 
Posted by Jack Theakston (Member # 4484) on 05-03-2009, 07:35 AM:
 
Sorry to be a nudge, but are you SURE it's not the port glass? Did you give it a good cleaning? Check for scratches or mars of any kind?

If you're getting this aberration with any lens, I'm less inclined to believe it's your optics, and rather something in the line of throw. Make sure there's absolutely nothing but the glass in between your lens and screen, and if you can remove the port glass, try running something without it in place.
 
Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 05-04-2009, 12:07 AM:
 
I'll try to get a picture of the blur up on here, i'm not sure how well it will photograph. I'll try to do it next time I'm working there.

I'm fairly certain the heads have all the parts they're suppose to have in them, but I'll double check just to be sure. (these X-L's actually had more bits in them than other X-L's i've worked with [Smile] They were still carbon-arc right before the theater re-opened)
 
Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 05-04-2009, 03:33 AM:
 
I've seen a similar thing due to
a) Lightly scratched port glass caused by a concentrated horizontal cleaning motion and..
b) Internal reflections inside the shutter housing. The black paint had been burnt off the shutter blade and was reflecting light around the housing and out through the aperture.

Best 'o luck with it all.

Cheers
Ian
 
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-04-2009, 08:52 AM:
 
Take the port glass right out
 
Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 05-04-2009, 12:10 PM:
 
Jarret, A few things

You said the light blur is the same on both sides. Do you have side masking and could it be ambient light? (exit lights somewhere near the screen, or wall light reflections?)

Have you physically held up and looked through the scope lenses for damage?

How about the film? The flat is perfect, but the scope is bad, is it always the same scope film? Is the film damaged? Have you run RP-40 to look at it?

Misalignment of the lamp can damage both the film and optics, and not sure what you've tried.

Rick
 
Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 05-04-2009, 04:26 PM:
 
Gordon's got it in one!
 
Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 05-06-2009, 11:36 PM:
 
Okay, I had a chance to get some pictures after we closed tonight. The bad news is that I ended up using my nokia cell phone camera, but you can kind of see what I'm talking about.

Also, I took the glass out of the port window when I took these.

This first one is looking at the right side of the test film:

 -
Notice how the black is smearing over as a blue-purple kinda thing.

Here is looking at the same pattern on the left side:

 -
Same thing going on, but opposite.

And finally... here is dead in the middle...

 -

On the rectangles and the triangles you can see it smearing in. The center black line isn't solid black either.

Hopefully this shows enough that you can get an idea of what's going on.

Thanks for your help everyone.
 
Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 05-07-2009, 08:49 AM:
 
looking at the pix two obvious things you may have missed:
Have you checked the projector timing?
Is the projector at an extreme angle to the screen (ie a single screen theatre badly twinned?)
May also want to make sure the lens is sitting squarely in the collar and in the projector.
 
Posted by Vern Dias (Member # 5241) on 05-07-2009, 03:10 PM:
 
You said you had tried a different prime lens at one time. Did this problem occur with both primes?

You said you see no issues with just the flat prime? Have you looked closely at the RP test film projected with the flat lens?
Is there any sign of this effect then?

Did somebody disassemble the prime lens for scope and put it back together incorrectly?

It sure looks like something is loose / crooked / broken in the optics. I don't think I have ever seen an image thats looks as bad as your photos, unless there was a major problem with the optics. I suppose lamphouse alignment could do this, but I would expect to see the same issue (possibly less severe) with flat.

Good Luck!!!

Vern
 
Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 05-07-2009, 03:39 PM:
 
Jarrett.

Having that image without the port glass clears that item.

Has your reflector in the lamphouse ever suffered any dings or distortions, possibly from a bulb explosion? A distorted mirror may produce images such as yours.

Do you know if the machine has been run for any length of time with lamp running and no film in the gate? It doesn't take long to cook a lens.

Best of luck with this. I'd love to see what is causing this.

Cheers
Ian
 
Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 05-07-2009, 07:15 PM:
 
Have you tried the "questionable" lens in a different theater to see if the problem follows the lens?
 
Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 05-07-2009, 09:55 PM:
 
Projector angle is very reasonable. We've interchanged prime and anamorphic lenses with the same results appearing on the screen. The optics look great, not a hint of being burnt at all.

The flat picture does look much better, on test film the flat doesn't seem to have the problem to the near extreme as the scope, however, I think you can see the same thinking happening, a little... (i'll re-run the test film on flat to double check).

The reflector is in good shape, it has obviously never experienced a bulb exploding. It is possible the reflector has been damaged by an exhaust fan not being turned on while it's running for a while.

I appreciate more input and I'll try to look into a few other ideas that have been tossed up.
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-07-2009, 10:08 PM:
 
Remember this kind of problem will be twice (or more) times as bad on scope as flat due to the "stretch." It will appear still worse if there is an issue with the scope lens.

Uncouple the scope lens from its backup and look only at the backup with the rp40. Should be the same up and down, but 1/2 as bad on the width. Louis
 
Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 05-08-2009, 01:05 AM:
 
Okay, from the pics I see a few things that give me pause:

First pic: The purplish shadow ("Chromatic abberration") is from damage to the lens elements OR misalignment of the lens plane to that of the film (Lens collar or lens holder issue.) It won't always show up when a lens has been burnt from exposure to white light or a stopped machine.

Second pic:

The blurring ABOVE and BELOW the squares can be caused by either a warped shutter blade (check it by turning the machine over slowly and make sure none of the blades has any wobble or warpage to them) OR a bad shutter drive assembly. (Look at the metal drive gear on the horizontal shaft of the shutter drive in the gear side while the machine is running..if that gear is moving in and out, even slightly, the shutter drive needs to be rebuilt.) I have drives rebuilt available on a repair-exchange basis. Since that blurring is not happening all over the screen as it would when the drive is bad, I'd say the shutter blades are warped.

Finally you need some new RP40. [Smile] I'll try to get some out to you gratis within the week.

Richard made a great suggestion: Try the same lenses in another projector to see if the problem follows..if it does, the problem is in the lenses. If it does not, then there are still issues with either the projector or lamphouse.

Oh, BTW: following info would help:

Lamp Make Model and Bulb wattage;
Shutter type: Two or three blade;
Lens makes and focal lengths;
Screen size;
projection throw.

With all the brainpower on this site we'll get it solved!!
 
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-08-2009, 10:40 AM:
 
If one looks at the middle picture one sees on the left block a smeared image top and bottom of the same block on the right image it is a smeared image going downward and to the left and a flare to the right
My suspicion is that you have a bad anamorphic lens coupled with a less than prime prime
Also I beleive the focallength is relativelylong so one must ensure that there is the correct amount of extension tubes to open the cone of light to use most of the glass in the anamorph and also the interior of the extension rings must be black
 
Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 05-08-2009, 08:04 PM:
 
this is what we have:

Superlumex 2500W lamp house, the lamps we're using right now are OSRAM.
Schneider 105mm prime lens with ISCO ultrastar HD anamorphic attachment.

I also want to add, those pictures were with my craptastic nokia cell phone. I wanted everyone to see the blueish blur, anything that looks like a travel ghost in those pictures isn't really there. It's very crisp and clean with the exception of the blue blur. Vertical ghosting isn't present to the eye, i think the camera on my phone was picking up some of the intermittent movement.

We've tried adding extension rings between the prime and the anamorphic (they are not black inside). Also, using the same prime and anamorphic on the projector next to it (2 projectors one screen here), doesn't look nearly as bad, you can kind of see the blur a little, but unless you were looking for it would likely never notice it.

I haven't had too much time to play with it....

Mentioning the lens collar thing... I just had a flash back. We had one chap working there for a while who insisted on "locking the lens", then adjusting the focus, could that have warped something?

Would it be worth trying to swap shutters between our two X-L's?

And... I also want to mention something obvious before someone else does. We don't want to use the second projector as our feature projector, as it is on a more drastic angle to the screen.

and... if I keep posting pictures of our poor quality test films and equipment will more people offer to send me new freebies???

Thanks Tony again for all your hard work and trouble.

Now if only I could find a curved gate for my 16mm B&H [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 05-11-2009, 01:23 AM:
 
Here are some pictures with a real camera that show what's going on a little bit better.

 -

 -

 -

maybe this will help...
 
Posted by Vern Dias (Member # 5241) on 05-11-2009, 07:53 AM:
 
Your new photos confirm that something is definitely wrong and that it actually affects the whole screen. There should not be blue halos surrounding the black as shown in your screen shots. Even in the shot of the center of the test film, these are present. This indicates a problem.

I can only reiterate what has been said before.

Basic troubleshooting 101:

Process of elimination-

Split the anamorphic from the prime lens and test the prime alone.

Try a different prime lens.

Check the image using the flat lens, there should not be any blue fringing even when viewed from 3 o4 feet from the screen.

etc.
etc.

And finally don't be mislead by looking for the extreme issues on the side. Watch the center of the image and examine the image from up close. Any blue fringing indicates a problem. Identify it and correct it.

Good luck.

Vern
 
Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 05-11-2009, 08:19 AM:
 
Jarret,

Is the dominant flare always on the right side of all white areas of the test pattern?

Have you tested the focus and centering of the lamp house?

This effect can be seen when the light is not centered in the aperture. The small areas of white light on the screen are projections of the pin hole sized images on the film. They can produce images of the light source through those holes. If the lamp is not focused and centered properly the result can be what you are seeing.

Check out the Christie procedure for focusing the bulb in the reflector. If there is some light coming directly from the cathode (negative electrode) of the bulb, not shadowed by the anode, you can also get this effect.

KEN
 
Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 05-12-2009, 02:13 PM:
 
The flare can be controlled. It is centered right now to be the least offensive. Moving the lamp house left and right will change how the blur is on the screen. moving the lamphouse back and forth wont resolve it either.

Also, the part of the projector that holds the lens barrel has been played with a bit to help minimize it. It has some rubber grommets under it so we can change the angle of the lens to the rest of the projector (this actually really helped with being able to match up the scope with the flat for screen position).

I'm now also certain that all parts of the projector head are present.

Hopefully once we get our hands on a laser the problem will stand out more. [Confused]
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-13-2009, 06:34 AM:
 
I don't want to burst your bubble, but the laser presumes that the reflector is concentric. None are. That is why Bill Sanders when he worked for Christie stopped carrying the laser. Good starting point, however.

You told me something when you mentioned the rubber grommets; the lens is not aligned with the film.

Using a long tube in a dummy lens, a flashlight, and RP-40. you center the lens holder on the centerline of the image, frame exactly, then project the loop on the screen, Cut your plates and only then align the lamphouse. you are then guaranteed that all centers are the same.

Regarding centering the scope with the flat: assuming you can shift sideways it is always possible to get these to agree. The scope "moves" twice as fast sideways as the flat.

Avoid bending the lens, if you want focus to be acceptable. Louis
 
Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 05-15-2009, 07:52 PM:
 
So... turns out the 70mm Flat ISCO (ultrastar HD dark gold version) shows no sign at all of the issues being experienced with scope. (does anyone know if the f stops are colour coded on the ultrastar HD lenses? - We also have a light gold ultrastar HD lens 65mm).

Does anyone know if ISCO makes an ultrastar above 95mm? Do they have something comparable to an ultrastar at that focal length? Because.... we have literally tried four other ISCO and Schneider 105mm prime lenses and they all produce the same blur. We've also tried three different anamorphics.

Louis, could you please elaborate more on your tube technique. How would you set this up? What are you using as a tube? A failed attempt of this technique on our end suggests that scope and flat agree to disagree [Frown]

My fellow projectionist Victor has had a lot of trouble getting them to agree using any technique getting flat and scope to agree, up down and side to side don't seem to want to ever work together. To date we've been rotating lenses and barrels to get them to work together as well as they can. Shimming the lens with a business card in the barrel seems to work better than anything else.

Just to add some extra info. The projector has a two blade shutter. Both our shutters are sort of a light gray and dark gray, some paint is coming off, not sure what the original colour was. The shutter is in good condition otherwise.

Thanks again everyone
 
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-15-2009, 08:37 PM:
 
Are you sure your aperture plates aren't centered differently? If you project with the flat aperture in the scope lens without shimming the scope lens, is it still as far off-center as your current scope image without the shimming?

--jhawk
 
Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 05-15-2009, 10:21 PM:
 
Our apertures are filed to the RP-40. If you didn't have an aperture plate in, and you changed the lens from flat to scope you'd see the position change.
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-16-2009, 06:41 AM:
 
On an XL it is possible to shift the plate that holds the rod at the top of the lens from left to right. Because of the anamorphic lens, scope shifts twice as fast, hence it is always possible to match left-right centers.

The tube is a hollow rod about 16" long with a crosshairs on one end and a pinhole in the bottom of an allen screw on the other. Originally purchased from Xetron back in the early 70's. This mounts in an aluminum dummy lens.
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 05-16-2009, 12:26 PM:
 
Hi everyone this is my first post!
I work with Jarret at this theater with the unstoppable light blur.A projectionist who worked a while back used to lock the lens assembly to the upper lens holder guide shaft!He would then hide all the allen wrenches forcing all who needed to focus in a hurry to bend or twist the lens when the top stayed still but the bottom focusing knob shaft did move.He was fired for being a lunatic!It was very difficult to get the lens assembly on both machines to free up after that,even with the allen screw loose.
Louis you say scope and flat can be made to agree by moving the guide shaft left to right.I have adjusted this guide shaft with my goal to center and unbind focus movement but i will try to get the optical centers to agree as well,i always thought both flat and scope would move the same distance on screen but i see what your saying.
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 05-20-2009, 09:50 PM:
 
A quick update!
Our problem seems to be the Schneider 105mm prime lens!Even though it looks to be perfectly clean,scratch free glass my older ISCO 105mm is light blur free.
Does anyone know if ISCO made a 105mm Ultrastar hd lens?
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-20-2009, 10:06 PM:
 
Shake that lens and see if it rattles.

Also unscrew the front from the back of the 105mm lens(metal to metal contact) and see if the elements that face each other are properly mounted. I have had a little problem with older lenses unscrewing due to vibration.

We were not expecting the lens, since it was previously swapped with similar results reported. Louis
 
Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-20-2009, 10:15 PM:
 
quote: Victor Liorentas
He was fired for being a lunatic!
Good thing by the sounds of it.

Victor, these are for you...

...there. Some spaces for you for after your periods. [Wink]
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 05-20-2009, 11:03 PM:
 
When i last used the ISCO 105mm prime the lens assembly was out of square with the gate(pre rubber washers)!I have it aligned much better now so i decided to give it a try and was stunned to see the light flare gone!I bought the Schneider for $150 bucks and love the contrast and sharpness otherwise.
I will give it a good shake tomorrow and listen for any sounds.The ISCO is looking better so far but i need to see more film like Gran Torino tomorrow.The ISCO has nothing written on it maybe because previous owners swapped out spacers but it is 1970s era i think.
The Schneider is fools gold and only says Schneider 105mm f2?This is why i keep asking if anyone knows if ISCO made Ultrastar in 105mm cause everything i buy on the used market seems older than Schneider or ISCO modern lenses!
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-21-2009, 09:20 AM:
 
ISCO has only made Ultra Stars up to 95mm...ever. ISCO, 100mm and above made Kiptars, Super-Kiptars and Ultras...that is it.

Schneider makes a Super-Cinelux 100mm but 105mm and above have only ever ben Cinelux-Ultras, which are similar if not identical designs to the ISCOs. A chief difference in the Schneider's are that they come apart in the middle...which allows one to stop them down, if desired.

ISCO has normally had a more consistant lens (pull 10 lenses from each company...the ISCOs will all be pretty similar...the Schneiders will vary a bit). Schneider has also had a lot more trouble with lens elements coming loose for various reasons.

Steve
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 05-21-2009, 06:03 PM:
 
Thanks Steve! By ultras do you mean Cinelux ultra MC and is that better than super kiptars?
Thanks John for the spaces [Smile]

Thanks Louis I shook the lens and hear no rattle and can't get it to come apart in the middle.
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-21-2009, 06:49 PM:
 
Cinelux is a Schneider trade name. Up until about 1982, Schneider was the importer of ISCO lenses...some even mused that ISCO stood for International Schneider COrporation.

When Schneider went their separate way, they took the Cinelux name with them. If you have lenses from the mid '80s, you will see that they milled the Cinelux name off of the "ID" ring and they just were called Ultras.

Schneider brought out their own Cinelux Ultras at that point (confusing?). The color was different with Schneider clinking to the "Fools Gold") color while ISCO kept their 14K gold color...up until the Ultra-Star line when their gold darkened (about 20K) and the Ultra-Stars also had a light-blue stripe on them (which was mimicked by SANKOR to deceive).

In any event, the co-existance of Schneider ISCO and I believe the owner of each company were brothers or otherwise related. The 105mm - 150mm line...they have more than a passing resemblance to each other and I suspect are identical designs though definitely made in different plants.

In the movie heiarchy...the root level is the name, then "Super" is attached to it...and finally Ultra is the top-tier. You can see this in the Lume-X line, the Panavision line and others.

So an Ultra would beat a "super" Note, when one is combining lenses for say anamorphics or magnifiers...then the attachment may have been designed based on a different prime lens design...as a result, I've seen where older primes out did newer primes if the magnifier/anamorphic was also designed in yester-year.

Steve
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-21-2009, 08:08 PM:
 
They were once the same company. They were split in the 1980s and became competitors. ISCO bankrupted several/many times until the German government gave up trying to save it. Schneider purchased ISCO, reuniting the two companies in the last year or two. (ISCO sold below cost of production.) Louis
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 05-22-2009, 11:18 PM:
 
I just bought a ISCO ULTRA MC 35/70mm 110mm on e-bay which appears newer than my 105mm ISCO. It was only 60 bucks so i thought it would be worth a try cause i feel the primes i have are less than steller.

I have a great Schneider 100mm , the picture is far to big but is stunning when i tried it (even without a curved gate) so i wish to get something closer to that.

I just put a brand new Osram 2500 bulb in place and have this ever so subtle shadow in the center of the screen flat or scope?
[Frown]
This is new , the old bulb was starting to flicker but what is this?
My lamp alignment status is 4 corners dark evenly so i am stumped, again it is subtle ,its more like the sides are a bit brighter than normal but could this be a new type of Osram design or am i just cursed? [Confused]

The good news is by making flat and scope agree side to side and up and down my lens to gate alignment has never been better!
[Smile]
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 06-05-2009, 01:16 PM:
 
I just put my new ISCO Ultra MC 110mm 35/70mm lens in and it does make scope look quite a bit sharper than the other 105mm prime lenses i have! [Smile]

Still trying to get flat & scope to agree precisely which brings up a question.

If you get them to agree does it mean you are square to the film plane as a rule of physics?

Or does it mean you have the same optical center but not perpendicular alignment as a rule?
 
Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-29-2009, 05:38 PM:
 
Hi Jarret,

Any resolution to this problem?
 
Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 07-29-2009, 09:00 PM:
 
I wouldn't quite say resolved, however, it is very minimal now. Changing the prime lens over to the 110mm ISCO Ultra did improve things greatly. A few other things did help. Installing a curved gate seemed to make it less noticeable. It would also seem that the more you can make your flat and scope barrels agree the less blurring you see. One other thing that seemed to help was playing with the gate trap (making sure it's all cleaned out and adjusted correctly). I suspect it was caused by a few things being out of wack, we would like to get the lamp house aligned correctly, but getting it any better seems near impossible with our equipment and the tools available.

I would like to mention we are being very critical of the quality. (we went from okay to great after starting this thread). When looking at other screens at other locations running completely different equipment I can see some of the same phenomenon appearing....
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 11-02-2009, 01:42 AM:
 
Would anyone happen to know if the Super Lumex requires heat filter glass when using a 2500 watt bulb?

If too much heat hits the film , what effect on focus should be apparent?
I have a curved gate upgrade on this Simplex xl,ISCO Ultrastar HD 70mm for flat,110 ISCO prime for scope with Ultrastar HD anamorphic.

If i sharpen all 4 corners + top and bottom of the screen evenly and completely, the middle will be softer.

The reverse is also true and with both formats. I have no turret.

I see this with RP40 and detect it on films all the time, mainly credits.

I spend hours a week after close playing and adjusting and slowly losing my mind! I can't get a laser or the Lumex align kit but i do have the 4 corners dark evenly when zooming the lamp in to far then i back off.

Yes the light blur is still present but small.

The picture is also mostly dam great but i am frankly obsessed with the goal of perfection.
 
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-02-2009, 03:03 AM:
 
quote: Victor Liorentas
detect it on films all the time, mainly credits.

Course there, you're dealing with opposites of the spectrum - solid black and solid white.

The black is definitely going to absorb more of the heat of the bulb, and about the only trick on this one so the lettering isn't so jittery, is to back the bulb off until the total field of light on the blank screen slightly darkens.

A simple rule of thumb on fine bulb focus is (with scope lens and aperture, motor running and no film in machine..and do this quick..): shoot the light on the screen, focus down til you see the four corners on the screen starting to go dark and you got tonnage of bright light everywhere else on the screen.

Then focus up 'til the four corners brighten up and the field of light "just" starts to go dim on the screen. This will get you in the ballpark area of a good bulb focus.
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 11-02-2009, 01:29 PM:
 
The "4 corner method" works great.

From what you have said, it sounds like you have lamp alignment correct. You may find that (esp. on the curved gate) the shoes are not quite parallel. Many older XL's have bent rods on the gate shoe mounts. Do not try to bend them back. I have shimmed Many Many curved gates using bit of Pepsi/beer cans. It should be possible to get perfect focus if the lens is centered on the picture centerline. The shims work great. If you guess wrong, then you have twice the problem. Move to the other side and you are almost there. Louis
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-02-2009, 02:16 PM:
 
We use the Schneider gate alignment tool. Lets one measure lens to film plane very accurately and ensure all is uniform.

For lamp alignment...make sure the working distance is correct from reflector to aperture. We use a combination of a Laser (to ensure a bulls-eye between lens and reflector center and the Kinoton light projector to ensure the reflector is precisely pointing back to the lens/film. You'd be amazed at how much better the light gets when you really get it centered right (also the film gate area runs cooler as the light leaves the system rather than bouncing about).

Steve
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 11-02-2009, 06:54 PM:
 
Louis, do you mean shimming with bits of metal around the rods?

Yes Steve, those tools would come in very handy!What do they cost?
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 11-03-2009, 12:13 AM:
 
Tonight i tried slipping a piece of port glass between the lamp and projector.
I noticed the light loss but also noticed the middle of the screen relax and come right into focus!?

I need to try it more when i have time but i wonder if i should just drop the amperage down a bit, i am at 95 amps.
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 11-06-2009, 04:38 PM:
 
I tried shimming with Sprite can pieces and wow what a huge difference!
The picture is wider as well,i only noticed the extra width cause it is hitting my main curtain a tad.

I have found lowering my amperage 1 step has improved light output, perhaps it was to much for the rectifrier [Smile]
Less light blur also!
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-06-2009, 09:56 PM:
 
I use a similar thing... digital depth gauge and precision ground lens bushing. This is the exact same way allo professional movie camera flange focal distance is measured and adjusted.
 
Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 11-07-2009, 01:14 PM:
 
While operating this projector today I noticed the picture was so sharp that I got cut!

It's like working in a brand new cinema!
 
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 11-07-2009, 04:27 PM:
 
quote: Steve Guttag
Cinelux is a Schneider trade name. Up until about 1982, Schneider was the importer of ISCO lenses...some even mused that ISCO stood for International Schneider COrporation.
The name ISCO derives from the original name of the company Jos. Schneider & Co., where Jos. stands for "Joseph", the founder of the company, and Co. stands for "Compagnon(s)" which means partner(s). One of the co-founders was Schneider's son.

In 1936, when the company needed to expand, they started building a new factory in Bad Kreuznach and also founded ISCO as a daughter company for lower cost lenses in Göttingen.

Back then, acronyms which could easily be pronounced as a whole word instead of single letters (like "Gestapo" or "Stuka") were trendy, and since JSCO is hard to say, they simply replaced the J with an I as both letters sound the same in German anyway ("Joseph" or or "Ioseph" both sound like "Yozef"). J as an individual letter is pronounced "yott" in German, and "Yottsco" is not only clumsy, it also sounds a lot like "kotzen" which means "to puke". That was probably not the image the company wanted to project (pun intended).

One of Schneider's original lens models was already called ISCONAR anyway, and I think it was production of this model that they moved to the new company.
Schneider was run as a privately owned company by family members until the early 80s when it was transformed into a publicly traded company, and at that point, they were split up into separate companies.
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 11-07-2009, 10:11 PM:
 
Always good to hear a success story. Louis
 
Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 11-18-2009, 02:43 PM:
 
quote: Brad Miller
I have a spare one from Mueller's Atomics, used once. Email me if someone needs it. Its a great little tool.
Brad,

Do you still have this available?
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 10-15-2010, 12:47 AM:
 
I swapped my reflectors tonight to see if i could get better light with the same bulb same projector.
This would tell me if i had an alignment issue or a twisted reflector.
The light i was getting was ok but never as evenly spread as one would want. The light was darker in 2 opposing corners and i could never fill it without messing everything else up!
It is now brighter and the dark corners bright as ever!
I waited a long time to do this because i was already using the better mirror with less flaking from heat damage but this flaky mirror has a cooler color temperature and very even light!
It seems much brighter!
I still need to run film but i am bursting with joy from these results!
 
Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 05-24-2013, 05:14 PM:
 

It has been 952 days since the last post.


 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 05-24-2013, 05:14 PM:
 
For those who have followed this thread,in the interest of keeping it complete and relevant.
Near perfection was achieved on this Simplex XL but in 2012 I bought a 1997 era PR1014 head and decided to swap it out. [Roll Eyes]
What a dumb move that was!
Anyway some things I have learned.
1.If it's not broke but near perfuct! Don't fix it or swap it out!
2.Many of the issues we had with the 50s era XL was to do with the inconsistency of the Simplex lens holders.The ones I have are all very different from each other and will change the perpendicular alignment lens to gate.

If I had the alignment tools I would have had an easier time. With the newer XL head I right away got a softer picture and it was harder than expected to get it to the level of perfuct the old head was putting on screen.
I had to swap out gate parts and the entire lens assembly. I also put in a rebuilt shutter assembly.

We are mainly digital now but kept our 35mm projectors in place.
This has made it harder to see the results of any changes I make because I don't get to see what different movies look like the next day.
You get to know a specific film and then you change something.Then you see what that film looks like after the changes. Not anymore unless I stay all night running my films or trailers over and over.
3. Not all lenses are the same even if they are the same exact brand and focal length. I have 3 Isco Ultrastar HD full size anamorphic attachments that each focus differently. One will focus perfect side to side and middle but top and bottom are weak.
Another does top to bottom perfect with side to side weakness.
This is without changing anything else.
This is also very subtle but can be seen.
That's all I got for now. [Smile]
 
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-24-2013, 09:42 PM:
 
SuperSimplex and E-7's knew how to run film in an excellent way. The XL was a needed inprovement for the company, but got lost in this department.
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 05-29-2013, 12:20 PM:
 
I have seen many good and bad examples of the Simplex XL with curved gate at the plexes over the years. This is on flat and curved screens.
I have noted that these screens were all 3k bulbs or more with prime back up lenses usually under 95mm.
In my case...110mm prime with a 32 foot wide scope image on a flat screen.
Very little downward slope angle and close to centered horizontally.
I sometimes wonder if a curved gate works against me using only 2500 watts of Super Lumex brightness?
I get that the curved gate should help any situation but more so beyond 3000 watts.
So could the curved gate or the amount of curvature be a problem under 3000 watts?
 
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-29-2013, 03:01 PM:
 
I've seen 3K lamphouses behind flat gate XL's issuing out great results on the screen in long throw houses. It's just that the curve gate 'stretches' the film to prevent focus drift when the heat of the arc or lamp distorts the film when the frame is in the trap.

The trick with flat gate units is to build the upper loop a bit higher where the film is entering the trap dead straight in with no curl at the very top of the trap where the curl of the loop is nowhere close to the top of the gate rail. This is what gives the steady image .. along with the machine running tons quieter.

Anything of a higher wattage would need the water cooled trap version.

Nothing wrong with a Super-LumeX behind an XL as long as bulb focus is correct.
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 05-29-2013, 04:01 PM:
 
My bulb lamp house align is fantastic.
I don't have a turret so most issues come down to the Simplex lens holders I have because they are far from perfect.

I have a couple like new one's on order and maybe another Ultrastar HD anamorphic lens. Hoping to stumble on the right combination.
I have my flat gates still but I don't want to go back to them.

I don't plan to go back to my old XL head because it's now on the other projector.
 
Posted by Jonathan Bodge (Member # 4072) on 05-30-2013, 09:01 PM:
 
Interesting discussion. I for some reason have always liked the look of a straight gate. I remember walking into a cinema in North Hampton Mass and the picture blew me away. Come to find out it was a Brenkert BX60. At one point installed an XL straight in Montauk NY and what a great picture.
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 01-08-2014, 09:40 PM:
 
How often have others of you found alignment issues on a curved gate non turret XL? What methods have you used to adjust for these issues?

1.Gate to film misalignment.
2.Lens to gate misalignment.

Just wondering if there is anything I have not tried.

[Smile]
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-09-2014, 08:22 AM:
 
Mostly the two rods get bent. That moves the shoes out of alignment side to side. Don't bend them back, shim the shoes.

This is not a problem with a straight gate since the solid part of the gate is the part that holds the aperture. Bent rods don't matter; they only hold the spring which is self aligning. louis
 
Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 01-09-2014, 10:09 AM:
 
Could you be more specific about the rods? I'm not getting it. Maybe it's just the term rod.
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 01-09-2014, 12:10 PM:
 
The rods Louis refers to are the pins or shafts the actual film gate slide onto and is then held tightly in place with two big nuts.
These rods determine the straight align of the film against the trap but the original design had the trap determine the alignment.

This may be a weakness of the xl after the curved gate was introduced because it relies on those two rods for precision alignment.

I have found the lens reducer's or lens holders to be less than perfect as well.
 
Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 01-09-2014, 07:09 PM:
 
Oh, those shafts. I've never seen these be a problem. I close the gate and then tighten the knurled gate nuts. Kind of self aligning that way.

As to the lens bushings, they are awful but not the real problem with uneven focus, it's more about being somewhat eccentric, but rotating them does not cause any out of focus, just the picture shifting around.

The issue I don't care for is the gate stop being all over the place and the curve in the intermittent tang that hold the shoe being off the proper radius.
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 01-09-2014, 07:50 PM:
 
Sam if those shafts are bent,wouldn't your self align upon gate closure in fact be a tic off affecting side to side focus?
On a curved gate that is...
My lens holders have been around the block and perhaps dropped or ground down with a grinder because they all perform differently.

I have many and continue to buy them.
I have one xl head with a bunch of issues in the focus assembly such as the threads on the focus knob shaft.
 
Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 01-09-2014, 09:07 PM:
 
I don't recall having many issue with XL's. I even own one, but it's not being used
on a large screen and I've never had focus issues with my particular set up.

BUT- - back in the 1970's I worked at one venue that had the 35/70mm version
of the XL and I was never happy with the image steadiness or edge focus.

I've heard that their 35/70 machines were not engeneered very well, and to
make matters worse, the theater it was at had a huge screen and a short throw,
which only maginifed the imperfections. It was especially bad in the winter
time when keeping things in focus for the first reel (on each machine) during
the first show required constant attention until the lamphouse (one of those
huge Ashcraft rotating carbon models) warmed up everything up.

I actually had two marks on the focus knob labeled "hot" & "cold" LOL!
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-10-2014, 08:28 AM:
 
In the "before-Strong" era, all 70mm XL's were fully built as 35mm machines and then sent to Howard Straight (sp) to be converted. This, according to Howard. I knew him well during his on again, off again relationship with the "boys from Omaha."
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 01-16-2014, 01:11 PM:
 
What I was most interested in exploring and this is mostly directed at Louis,Steve,Mark and Tony...when using your alignment tools and finding lens to gate is off.
What methods do you employ to get it aligned?
Ive heard of the Kinoton tools for instance?

Steve Guttag once mentioned the analog soundtrack prevents the image from being centered exactly between the perforations.So the image is forced off center and lamp heat will pull the film unevenly.
Has anyone seen the result of this? I think I have but I am not certain.When I get the best corner to corner and center focus,if I study just left or right of center I see softness in one small area. I wonder if this softness is that very issue?

This is walking up very close to the screen.
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-16-2014, 05:28 PM:
 
If you check older SMPTE Journals, the uneven focus due to the optical soundtrack offset has been reasonably well documented. Glenn Berggern has published a bit on this.

As to getting things aligned. The Kinoton light projector is really to get the reflector in perfect alignment, not the gate/lens mount relationship.

For vertical/horizontal...a laser is your friend but before you can pull out your red-dot machine...you need to make sure pitch and yaw are right. For that, Schneider made a great kit that used a dial indicator and some precision ground lens plugs. you mount the lens plug in the lens mount, put the supplied plat in the gate where the film would run (it is 35mm wide)and then start measuring from corner to corner. Shift/shim parts as needed to get everything equally spaced. Once you have that...take a laser and bore-sight it down the centerline of the aperture...then all of the way back to the center of the reflector...you now have established a true centerline from lens, through the aperture to the middle of the light source...while the laser is in there, put a fixture that will simulate the anode of your lamp stem and get the anode support dead center on the laser so it is at the right height. Then use the Kinoton light projector to adjust the reflector to bounce the light back exactly. While one can do an okay job with just the laser, it will never take into account all of the imperfections in the reflector that the actual light will bounce off...The Kinoton device will. You'll see the interference pattern and can center it very easily. When you're done, you'll be amazed at how much more even your light is and how much better focus will be when you have the light going through the optics and hitting the screen rather than bouncing all over the place and being directed at strange angles everywhere.
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 01-16-2014, 08:58 PM:
 
I hope to get those journals one day. The Kinoton light projector too!
Perhaps I should just try harder to get a Kinoton. [Smile]
In the meantime I do have lamp alignment that is super bright to the point of flicker. Round black circle in the middle of the screen with lens out. Capable of four corners dark evenly with scope lens in.
Just can't believe how stubborn this newer PR 1014 head is regarding a great sharp picture on both formats.
I should have kept my old Simplex head in place because it really did respond to my fine tune adjustments.

This PR 1014 just trades one issue for another when I make adjustments [Frown]
Can you feel the despair [Confused]
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-17-2014, 08:34 AM:
 
The issue continues to be that the film plane is not quite 90 degrees with the optical centerline.

I would also agree that the center of the picture on the film and the optical centerline may or may not be the same depending on the vintage of the Simplex.

The "bent" rods I was referring to are best left alone. It is possible to shim the film trap shoes. i use Pepsi/beer can strips between the shoes and their carrier. Try one side, if worse, move the shim to the other side. If better, but not enough, add another thickness.
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 01-17-2014, 02:19 PM:
 
Thanks Louis [Smile] I have been shimming the gate shoes for a couple years since you first mentioned it on this thread.
It worked great on the old xl head but this PR 1014 head doesn't play ball.
For instance.
Lets say I got my lamp alignment great and four corners dark evenly is achievable with a bright even picture when lamp focus is backed off(Super Lumex 2500 watt)
I start with test film on scope. Study it and then rotate lens 180 degrees and decide which of the two evils to go with.

I shim the gate shoes for maximum even focus. Then I switch to flat and it wants the opposite shimming for better focus. [evil] [evil]
Then I will loosen up the lens holder(reducer) and rotate the scope lens to a different position and start all over.
It's never very good.
Sometimes it's a decent focus between lenses but flat will be off center to far right or left and no amount of rotation of the lens holders concentric action will fix it so it's back to the drawing board.
I do adjust the front right left of the lens assembly to make flat and scope agree horizontally.
If fact everything anyone's ever said in this thread has been tried(except using those specialist tools) and worked on the old head.
I have 3 sets of scope lenses(Ultrastar HD) and 7 lens holders.

My only solution is to adjust for one format at a time before a show. Then undue the shimming adjustments when I need the other format. It works but that's a lot of work and not realistic if I were running lots of film.
I guess it's lucky we went digital when I got the PR 1014 head! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-17-2014, 02:57 PM:
 
Use the scope backup lens only to eliminate one of two variables (the anamorphic.) It needs to be razorsharp corner to corner FIRST. Only then will lamp alignment be a factor.

Once scope backup is good, then test with flat. Both should agree.

The reason you have gone in circles is that you are chasing two (or more) variables at the same time.

Lens alignment to the gate is always first. Louis
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 01-17-2014, 04:54 PM:
 
Ok Louis Ill give that procedure a more thorough try.
Do you believe in having any spacer between the prime and anamorphic?
Ive gotten vague answers about that or some say yes and some say no.
Prime = 110mm
throw = 87'
screen width =32'

Ive tried spacers in the past but in the excitement of running around in circles chasing multiple problems,not sure what the differences were? [Smile]
 
Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 01-17-2014, 06:46 PM:
 
I agree with Louis about going back and testing with just the scope and flat prime lenses.

Note the footage marks on the scopes are important but not all that accurate.

I don't think spacer tubes are needed or matter at all at this long focal length.
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-18-2014, 06:35 AM:
 
Spacers don't matter unless you are at short focal lengths. Special fittings are used then to get the lenses closer. Otherwise you lose your corners. Louis
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 01-20-2014, 01:37 PM:
 
It's hard on the eyes to look at the 35PA test film through the prime lens only. [Smile] It's so bright and hard to make out fine detail from the booth. I have to walk right up to the screen.

I see some pumping at the top and bottom and travel ghost (tiny bit)at the top and bottom moving towards center. I installed a rebuilt shutter assembly. Could it be bad anyway or can the intermittent be part of the problem.(picture is steady)Also sanded and painted shutter blade flat black.

Depending which lens holder (reducer) I use,I get different problems with focus. One gives me good focus except the bottom of the screen. Another gives me top and bottom softness if middle is sharp.
This is the same crap I see with the anamorphic on by the way.

I have 4 different prime lenses 7 lens reducers and 3 Ultra HD anamorphic's. I only spent 2 hours on this last night,trying just a couple different prime lenses and reducers.

Let's just consider for a moment the soft at the bottom system.
How would you know if the issue is gate shoe assembly , lens assembly or reducer (assuming lens is fine)?
Lets say I shimmed and tinkered for even sharpness on the prime lens. How on Gods green earth am I going to loosen up the lens reducer,get the anamorphic back on,tighten the lens back in the reducer without anything changing?
I know I could mark everything first but once it's back together, you only have two positions which the anamorphic can sit in the projector. The odds of everything being exactly the same after the scope is back on seems slim.
Some of these lens reducer's have trouble gripping lenses tightly or the projector lens assembly can't grip the reducer OR you can't get the lens reducer into the lens assembly! [Mad]

Are these parts this bad new on new installs? Do I just have bad luck buying used parts?
Would I be better off with a turret head?

[Big Grin]
Keep in mind that my issues are small here(except this travel ghost nonsense) [Smile] ! I am mostly being super critical since I am the last man standing in this city of mine playing with film. I want to do it justice.
Also...with everyone so used to complete sharpness at all times with Digital Cinema (one of it's strengths), any focus issue or travel ghost like smearing seems to stand out more than ever.
Even a few specks of dust seem more offensive than it used to but that's what filmguard is for!
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 03-13-2014, 01:58 PM:
 
Ok and we're back! [Smile]
This might be premature but I may have figured out where I've gone wrong with my newer PR1014 head.
When I first got it I swapped out many part's that were newer from my old XL head.This can be a problem if your not careful because not all parts are identical from different eras of the XL.

The gate parts were something I noticed and adjusted immediately but only today did I look more closely at the gate trap!
It has clear cosmetic differences.The important one which may have caused me problems.Problems I didn't realize I had.
In particular the way the gate shoes contact the flexible straps!

When gate tension is set correctly,shoes cup the intermittent sprocket just right.Gate shoe runners were not in close contact with straps at the bottom of the gate!
This is what I saw upon close inspection.
So I switched back to the original gate trap and saw much closer contact with straps at the bottom of gate.
I can't check for results on screen for about 10 hours but pray I'm on to something! [Cool]

My luck is not good though.Just bought a iconic Blue Star anamorphic and had to send it away to Century optics in Van Nuys because something is rattling around inside and focus is worse than my Ultrastar HD!
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-13-2014, 03:59 PM:
 
Yeah...but on the up side. You'll get it nice a clean and set up on an optical bench to perfection so it is likely to be better, when all is done, than an off-the-shelf one.
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 03-13-2014, 04:13 PM:
 
Yes and I just got a very pleasant phone call from lens tech John Sioringas from Century Optics saying he found the problem and it's a matter of a single element.
A very reasonable price to fix it too! [Smile]
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-13-2014, 09:16 PM:
 
John is excellent too.
 
Posted by Frank Bolkovac (Member # 6201) on 03-16-2014, 10:20 PM:
 
Might be a form of travel ghost if there is a hole somewhere in the shutter's cut off blade.
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 03-19-2014, 06:32 PM:
 
No holes in my shutter blades.If fact I've repainted them a perfect flat black.
I have solved almost every focus artifact except for one. This one issue used to be subtle but now looks worse.

With the top/bottom/center and sides sharp I have a soft area just left of center. If I focus this I lose top/bottom a bit.
I've taken louis's advise and am working the problem with just my prime lenses (5 of them) and they all show the same thing.
I've had my Blue Star repaired and it's on it's way back to me.
I want to get this thing right before I install it.

It's frustrating because it's so close to being great.

I think the film is bulging in towards the lamp in that spot.
Why? Too much heat? Intermittent out of align?
The gate has brand new straps/gate shoes and is adjusted perfectly as I can get it.

I have been careful to work one problem at a time but now I'm stuck.
 
Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 03-20-2014, 10:31 AM:
 
Have you tried moving the inner lateral guide roller out of the way with the target film running? You can do this with a little stick or screwdriver. This might help if the film is being pinched.

Also, I would move one of the so called studio guides away from the film a bit for the same reason as above. Worth a try.
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 03-20-2014, 12:09 PM:
 

 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 03-20-2014, 12:20 PM:
 
Hi Sam!
It's a curved gate so no studio guides but I was thinking the lateral guide might be a culprit and yes I did move it to release pressure off the film.
Problem is from the booth it's hard to see how much that helped.
That lateral roller can only be in so many positions where it will still turn freely and do it's job.

I do have an update on this.
It's fixed!
I spent the last week carefully adjusting my reflector to bulb relationship. The super lumex reflector has a threaded rod at the top of the mirror mount which allows forward and back adjustments. This is similar to moving the bulb yolk up or down.
Without the alignment kits or lasers I was having a hard time getting this relationship spot on.
I figured out a way using straight edges placed across the reflector and bulb and eyeballing a 90 degree angle in true hillbilly with a purpose fashion!
It worked!
I should have invested more time earlier on this particular point but I thought I had it close enough based on the incredible brightness I was getting.
All four corners darkening evenly and so on.
I believe it was off just enough to give me great light but shooting off in every direction and causing concentrated heat to that area of the film.
So the bottom line is bulb has to be perfectly centered and square with the reflector.

[Big Grin]
The lens assembly is also off and requires shimming but that's easy compared to eyeballing the bulb/reflector.
Trying to achieve lens to film alignment without the bulb/reflector alignment perfect is where I was going wrong.
As Louis said "chasing two or more problems at the same time.
Once I had the lamphouse right the gate and lens assembly adjustments are a piece of cake.
I receive my Blue Star anamorphic back from Century optics in a few days but my picture is so good now, you could paint this Ultrastar blue and tell me it's the actual Blue Star! I might fall for it. [Smile]
The lesson here is bulb/reflector = lamp house. Only then do you have a lamp house worth aligning to your projector.
Thanks Louis,Steve,Sam,Mark,Tony,Gord and God!

Now I can get to work on my left off center projector! [Big Grin]
Piece of cake.
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 03-20-2014, 02:45 PM:
 
Glad that worked. EVERYTHING needs to be on optical center, and when it is, it really really works. Hard to believe that a picture could be that good! Louis
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 03-26-2014, 11:48 AM:
 
I got the Blue Star lens back from Century Optics. They fixed the rattle but when I displayed my test films it was still not great. I can see it's better but it still performs below my 3 Ultrastar HD lenses. If it was 75% before then it's 90% now. I don't know if I am missing something but I spent 4 hours on it last night and in the end my old Ultrastar HD easily out performed the Blue Star.
I need to take a few days rest from it.I will write Century Optics and see what they say. They did tell me it's the hardest lens of all to work on.
Otherwise I'm $950.00 poorer on this and have a pretty Blue paper weight to show for it. Not sure what to do?
I don't think I've missed anything.
I have the Ultrastar HD back in place looking excellent with a showing of T2 on Friday so I'll take a break from it till after that showing and give it another try.
I'm exhausted and need a vacation!
[Frown]
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 03-26-2014, 06:25 PM:
 
Uncouple the anamorphic. Put only the prime lens in and focus it. Do not change this setting.

Hold the anamorphic in front of the prime lens and adjust only the anamorphic distance setting until focus is good. This may or may not occur at the distance that corresponds to your throw. It doesn't matter if the picture is good. Louis
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 03-26-2014, 07:37 PM:
 
I'll try that Louis.If your suggesting my distance setting is off?

I got very good at adjusting that 20 years ago. Film Tech method or my preferred method of focus knob,distance,focus distance until they converge. That's what I spent so much time doing last night after making sure the prime lens by itself was optimum.The thing I didn't do was hold the anamorphic in front and adjust distance...I went straight to attaching it to the prime.

Even if this way you suggest is better,I think it could be.I still think the Blue Star is mis-aligned inside. I hope to be proven wrong. [Smile] It would be great if this issue is caused by the Blue Star being very finicky before it shows what it can do.
I would expect a better lens to be easier to adjust though...
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-27-2014, 03:12 PM:
 
Keep in mind people that the adjustment on an anamorphic projection attachment IS NOT a focus adjustment in the true sense. It is actually an astigmatism adjustment. If you approach it for what it really is then it may be easier to deal with.

Mark
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 03-27-2014, 04:44 PM:
 
Indeed Mark!
Anyone out there find making these adjustments on a Blue Star anamorphic more difficult and picky than a lessor anamorphic?

Century optics has made some suggestions such as sending the Blue Star and 110mm prime lens back to them and they will focus match them together. Which is what is done to a integrated lens.
Does that sound like a dream solution or a compromise to the Blue Star or the prime?
That's a deep question! [Cool]

Wow! Just after I posted this ,the forum took on a anamorphic stretch!? I kinda Like It! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 03-27-2014, 11:20 PM:
 
OK here is a major update!!
I focused the prime lens by itself and then held the Blue Star up and turned the distance ring(astigmatism) through it's range.

It's not even close to focusing! I mean way off on another planet.
I tried the same thing with an Ultrastar and no problem.

John from Century Optics said this to me in an email.

Hi Victor,

When you sent us the "Blue Star" you just sent us the anamorphic section of the lens, the prime
was not included. At this point to check it you could attach another prime lens of good quality to the
Blue-Star anamorphic and re-check the image. If that does not improve the image, then send me the
Blue-Star and the prime lens you are using with it.

The Ultra Star HD lenses have the prime lens built into the rear of the lens, along with the anamorphic
section of the lens. They are matched and focused together into one lens.

I would have called you about this but lost or misplaced your number.


Best Regards



John Sioringas

I then answered telling him that I had the full size Ultrastar attachments and not the integrated all in one type. I said I use the same Ultra MC 35/70 110mm prime for everything.

Not heard back yet.

Anyway I was shocked that prime by itself was in focus,then holding anamorphic up and it's whole range of adjust barely changes it. It's a big blur. If I turn the focus knob a couple of turns it will converge into a decent focus.

The plot thickens? Or is it thinner? [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 03-28-2014, 03:54 PM:
 
Anamorphic won't refocus a lens that is already out of focus. I think something might have become disturbed in transit. John Sioringas is a good man and the lab does great work. Louis
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 03-28-2014, 04:28 PM:
 
I agree Louis.
I believe everything will get worked out.
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 03-28-2014, 06:27 PM:
 
I just had a fascinating long phone conversation with John.
He was telling me about working with NASA on special lenses!
He also said it's not necessarily correct that all anamorphic lenses will focus on the prime when it's in focus by itself.

He told me not everyone agrees with a curved gate design necessarily either. Over 3000 watt lamps perhaps.

Anyway I will be sending the prime and Blue Star back at his insistence.
[Big Grin]
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 05-04-2014, 04:40 PM:
 
On Tuesday May 6 I should receive the Blue Star anamorphic back from Century Optics.This will be the second time they went through it but this time they had my 110mm prime with it.

It was confirmed that my prime lens was perfect and any issues are with the Blue Star. They said the Blue Star was being stubborn in producing a sharper image.They did detect a hint of softness.

I'm hoping they were able to solve it but anyway no charge this time.
Fingers crossed. [Smile]
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 05-07-2014, 11:22 AM:
 
I got the Blue Star back again and this time it looks fantastic!
I could see it right away! Not had time to fine tune but I am very relieved to have a Blue Star lens as opposed to paper weight!
John Sioringas is the man! [Smile]
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-07-2014, 02:31 PM:
 
I was hoping for that response. John has not lost his touch!
 
Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 03-01-2017, 10:51 AM:
 

It has been 1028 days since the last post.


 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 03-01-2017, 10:51 AM:
 
Louis you were very correct about me running around in circles chasing more than one problem! While trying to install take up reel belts on my SH-1000 sound heads...I discovered motor to coupler to gear box mis-alignment which has been causing vibrations all this time. Mark Gulbrandsen just instructed me how to get it aligned.
With the vibrations gone...so went my light blur artifacts on the test film! It's super clear now!
I would have invented light speed quicker than fix this the way I was going. [Smile]
 
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 06-05-2017, 09:07 PM:
 
I have since perfected the motor to gearbox alignment,the projector runs very smooth and super quiet.It was a problem that started a few years ago and got worse very slowly,so I didn't realize or notice until it got obvious like a freight train.
Some of the bolts were less than tight for many years.

This inspired me to start from scratch aligning the lenses for flat and scope. It was very easy to see what was what compared to the old days when I was dealing with motor vibrations and not aware it was so key to solving the visual artifacts on screen.

The results I have now are beautiful. The other issues covered in this thread were real but the motor vibrations exaggerated some of them. Of course,if I fixed a particular issue,the vibrations effects were always still there.
The top tip here is to get your motor to gearbox alignment smooth and perfuct! [Smile]
 




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