Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Kinoton wont strike, need help asap

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Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 04-02-2009, 10:12 PM:

I am working on a kinoton power supply for a FP30 projector / console.

Problem: The bulb will not strike.

Troubleshooting performed so far:

1) 3 pole breaker is supplying power on each phase. Power between each leg is 201 VAC
2) 3 phase power is passing through the contactor and breaker.
3) 3 phase poaer is being applied to main power supply transformer.
4) Main power transformer is outputing 23 VAC from each output leg.
5) Power transformer outputs are connected to full wave diode block.
6) Diode block is outputing 45 VDC.
7) Ignitor board is securely connected to output of diode block and outputs of main power supply transformer.
8) All door safety switches are working. All fuses are working. Air flow detector switch is working.

I'm trying to figure out where to go from here. We have a spare projector here and I'm considering swapping out the entire assembly which has the ignitor coil, circuit board, spark gap, etc...

I'm really not familiar with these power supplies.

Thanks

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-02-2009, 10:17 PM:

quote: Eric Robinson
Diode block is outputing 45 VDC.

You need 100 to 140VDC no load voltage to even think on getting the bulb to strike.

Do you have a volt button on the console to see how many volts is coming out of the rectifier during operation? If so, hold the button in and turn on the rectifier and see if the needle swings up for voltage reading and also get your reading off the scale when you do this.
Bet one of the diodes opened up.. do you know how to test diodes?

Good luck .. - Monte

Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 04-02-2009, 10:22 PM:

Hi Monte,
I checked one of the other Kinoton units by unplugging the ignitor strinking board, turned on the bulb, and measured the output voltage of the diode which was 50VDC.

I know the strong rectifiers swing upwards of 100VDC to activate the strike, are the Kinotons different?

In summary, the working projector seemed to have the same DC output from the diode block as the non-working projector.

Also, this projector has one diode package, which has three connections for the incoming power and two connections for the outgoing DC.

Someone apparently has swapped this unit out already.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-02-2009, 10:35 PM:

quote: Eric Robinson
turned on the bulb, and measured the output voltage of the diode which was 50VDC.

..Sorry, but the startup voltage of the 100 to 140 VDC is needed without bulb ignition.

When rectifer comes on right at first, the startup voltage has to be this high. Then when the ignitor kicks in to shoot that 50kV spark across the bulb to ignite it, then the run voltage from the rectifier does drop down to the level you mentioned.

Does the igniter buzz or snaps when trying to strike the bulb..and is the bulb flashing when trying to ignite?

Lastly - have you tried another bulb?

-good luck .. Monte

Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 04-02-2009, 10:40 PM:

No, the ignitor does not buzz or snap and there is no flashing. There has been repotedly three diffrent bulbs installed in this machine. 1 used and 2 new.

Did you see my comment in the last post that I measure 50VDC output on a working projector that had not struck yet?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-02-2009, 10:46 PM:

Interesting that you got 201 VAC when touching across two legs on the triple phase. I would then say that could be a bit of a problem there...coming from the scource..

Since I'm not familiar with Kinoton rectifiers, (yet one would think that they would have the basic circuitry as with all rectifiers and needed the needed no-load VDC to initially kick in the bulb)..then this is beyond me ... someone else is gonna have to chime in on this help here.

Stll, check diodes, for they're the first to hit with problems.

good luck - Monte

Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 04-02-2009, 10:50 PM:

Problem fixed!

While snooping around some more, I found that one of the relays on what I'm going to call the ignitor board had burnt contacts. Luckily the theatre had a spare and I installed it...violla.

Now I know I better brush up on these power supplies...it's no fun being clueless in an emergency.

Thanks Monte for your quick responses [Wink]

[ 04-03-2009, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: Eric Robinson ]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-03-2009, 02:22 AM:

Yes, that was your autostrike board. That relay is a common thing to go out on some units. I have 12 consoles with autostrike boards and I keep a few of these relays handy.

That relay works with the igniter. When you hit the RUN button, the contacts in the relay closes, which allows the igniter to function to ignite the bulb. After bulb is lit, the contacts break open and shuts off the igniter. It sounds like an AC igniter.

Glad to help .. good luck as always - Monte

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 04-03-2009, 03:40 AM:

Eric, what model is the rectifier?

The ignitor on every Kinoton I've ever seen is within the lamphouse, not the rectifier. If I am reading your post correctly you've swapped out a PCB within the rectifier? In which case it's probably the O.C.V. boost board.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-03-2009, 06:10 AM:

sounds like it is the boost supply that is not working

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-03-2009, 09:10 AM:

Most Kinotons use IREM power supplies so there you have the RA or A1 relay board...which is critical for the boost circuit to work.

In the lamphouse, there is the igniter autostrike board too. Two different boards.

Note too, there is the white manual strike button...which Kinoton has even on their DC igniter systems.

Steve

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 04-03-2009, 04:51 PM:

What Eric describes (two relays on "strike board", "diode package", 45VDC) sounds more like a Kinoton KG110G rectifier though. I have actually never seen one of those in the free-standing version, only in FP50A/D consoles. Problems with the boost PCBs were not entirely uncommon. Sometimes just tapping on the relays helped. Interestingly, I got the bigger version (KG150 in FP50A) to light both Christie and Osram 3k and 4k lamps without the boost circuit at just 55VDC.

Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 04-03-2009, 11:35 PM:

Here are some photos which should reveal the make and model. I could not find make/model information printed anywhere in the rectifier area:

Circuit Board: O.C.V. boost board?
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?992eb9b079.jpg

Entire power supply
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?ae3cea7192.jpg

Closeup shot of burnt relay contacts
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?cfc091cb6e.jpg

I noticed the boost circuit board has the following connections:

1. DC + from main DIODE output (red)
2. DC - from main DIODE output (black)
3. 120 VAC (brown)
4. 120 VAC (brown)
5. leg 1 of AC from main transformer (yellow-18 gauge)
6. leg 2 of AC from main transformer (yellow-18 gauge)
7. leg 3 of AC from main transformer (yellow-18 gauge)
8. Yellow wire going to a capacitor (yellow-10 gauge)

What I'm trying to figure out is if this is a boost circuit board, how does it boost and where is the output?

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 04-04-2009, 03:56 AM:

That's exactly what I was expecting.

That is a Kinoton in house designed and manufactured rectifier, I forget the model number off hand, but Michael above does!
I'm guessing those projectors are FP20/FP50A? That rectifier is usually found in A series installations, we've installed a few both console FP50A and traditional FP20A.

Anyhoo, that is indeed the OCV boost board, basically it's a small DC power supply, note the bridge rectifier and capacitor bank.

The realy contacts are a known weak spot, and there is a re-designed board using solid state switching available. Contact your Kinoton dealer to order.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-04-2009, 07:31 AM:

IMAX had a similar design in some of their Miller units