This is topic Cue marks: scribe circles or grease pencil? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Paul Burt (Member # 3743) on 05-11-2009, 11:17 AM:
 
I work at a number of venues where 2000' changeovers are essential for various reasons. No problem, I've dome this for years, but there is a new aspect to this: fewer and fewer film have cue marks from the labs. Most European prints and virtually all Asian prints are now struck without cue marks. The question is, which is better for the print, scribing cue marks, or using grease pencil? At the last festival I worked I would say about 60% of the prints without lab cues came in with scribed circles and the rest with grease pencil cues. (Since we used platters at this festival it was irrelevant, I didn't have to add any cues, but at my next festival we do changeovers & I expect I'll have to add marks to at least some of the prints)
Downsides: scribed cues can never be removed which may be a problem for future preservation. Grease pencil is sometimes too visible on the screen although it can be removed easily. Personally I prefer grease pencil cues but they can be almost invisible on dark scenes, and at one festival I work, films will be run in various venues and all the operators have to see them, not just me.
How do the members here weigh in on this?
 

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Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 4255) on 05-11-2009, 11:31 AM:
 
I would take the opportunity to make the correct scribe cues first, hopefully before less experienced operators have a chance to add thousands of their own. Cues are barely noticeable on platter runs, and future changeover operators will thank you for making decent cues.
 

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Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 05-11-2009, 12:17 PM:
 
What Damien said. Sooner or later, someone is going add cues in a destructive manner. Since you have a Clint Phare cue gizmo, use it to do it right. Ultimately it will save frame damage down the road.
 

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Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 05-11-2009, 12:41 PM:
 
I've used both but prefer the scribe. Grease pencil, if not removed, will come off on the film wrapped over it. If you do use grease pencil make it a small mark not clear across the frame like I've seen some apparently half-blind operators do.
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 05-11-2009, 12:52 PM:
 
Personally, I never ever used a cue scribe. Back in my changeover days, that gadget, and exacto knives were used so much, some films looked pretty horrible.

When I worked changeover booths in Seattle, some of the union guys used a technique I thought was pretty effective.

We'd cut strips of masking tape... about 1/16 inch X the width of the tape... less than an inch, as I recall.

Wrapping one of those strips around the edge of the film, at the frameline, causes a noticeable click when it runs through the gate... not unlike the old glue splices we used to use. We'd place the audible cues just before the visual one. It made finding dark cues much easier, because you knew it was coming right after the click(s).

As I recall, we used 2 clicks for the motor cue (something like 8 frames apart), and one click at the changeover. Curtain cues were 3 clicks.

I don't doubt that some here might recoil in offense that one would use a technique like this... but it worked back then, seemed to cause no damage, and the strips were easily removed when the time came.

Maybe using the artists tape would be a good alternative?
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-11-2009, 01:12 PM:
 
I don't believe in using shoe polish for reel end IDs, but how about a small strip of that "silver" sharpie ink along the side of the film at the appropriate spots? This would of course require decent booth lighting but you wouldn't have to mark the image area.

The only downside I could see is, you might muck up the SDDS soundtrack but who's using that old thing any more?
 

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Posted by Dick Prather (Member # 1136) on 05-11-2009, 01:12 PM:
 
Jack, I remember them well. We used to call them clickers and knew they were from Seattle. They were glued small strips of film then.

The only time I worked in Seattle was at the Aurora DI where they were also used to signal when to turn on the xenon lamp. They worked fine but made the film jump every time a click went through.

Normally I removed them. The Clint Phare markers worked fine. Sometimes we put a small drop of opaque in the CP mark. Most booths had opaque to bloop the optical track with glue splices.

I miss not seeing the ques on lots of DVD's. I think they should be left on.
Dick
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-11-2009, 02:43 PM:
 
"Blind man's cues" used at a drive in here with a 1500 foot throw. The valley fogged in too much to see a picture from the booth, but underneath the screen was still visible. (Booth located on top of hill at rear of drive in.) Louis
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 05-11-2009, 03:38 PM:
 
Scribe cues at the proper locations, always!! Grease pencil cues, no matter how small will always look horrible on screen. You simply cannot make them the exact same size and placement so that they don't dance about during the four frames. And the scribe cue is smaller than any possible mark from a grease pencil that would be of any use.

A properly scribed cue is NOT noticeable to the vast majority of audiences. (Over 90% of the audience at UC Irvine I've spoken with didn't even know we were running two projectors and never saw any cues..when they were properly placed and made. They DO notice the grease pencil cues though..every time.)

quote: Jack Ondracek

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Back in my changeover days, that gadget, and exacto knives were used so much, some films looked pretty horrible.

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quote: Jack Ondracek

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As I recall, we used 2 clicks for the motor cue (something like 8 frames apart), and one click at the changeover. Curtain cues were 3 clicks.

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So basically you had two film jumps at each motor cue and three at each curtain cue? And you thought that to not be as distracting as a properly scribed cue? You're right, I recoil at that.

quote: Jack Ondracek

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Maybe using the artists tape would be a good alternative?

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The alternative for the motor and changeover cues would be to use the scribe, and for your curtain cues use your skills and a pre-run of the reel to judge by image or soundtrack when to hit the curtains. That's exactly what we had to do on the military base I started my film career at, we were not allowed to put any cues on the National Anthem trailer or the preview and feature snipes.

I would like to kill whoever came up with the "hole punch" cue maker. There is one or two out there that makes smaller holes than the standard paper punch...perhaps those were intended for editorial or lab use only, but I have run into them on release prints.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-11-2009, 04:04 PM:
 
Do not use scribe circles! Grease pencil can wear off much too quickly. Instead, I highly recommend hole punches. Never miss another changeover again!


 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 05-11-2009, 04:13 PM:
 
Love ya Joe..
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-11-2009, 04:32 PM:
 
Scribed cues all the way. Grease pencils are obnoxious on screen and as most people lay the film down on a table to mark them and to remove them, they end up scuffing up that stretch of film.

If a lab scribes cues on their EK prints and release prints have printed cues, I don't see why anyone would want to slash grease pencil marks across the image since obviously cues are deemed acceptable. Just use the 24 frame standard, not the 18. That way if a few frames get chopped off during handling, at least there is a decent length of time after the last cue.
 

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Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 05-11-2009, 05:01 PM:
 
Louis.
Do you have any more info on that drive-in with the 1500' throw? That sounds facinating. Maybe a good topic for another thread?

Cheers
Ian
 

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Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-11-2009, 05:27 PM:
 
Maybe it's just me but wouldn't having the fog come in (to the point of making the image impossible to see through it) also make the on-screen image awful, even for a drive-in?
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 05-11-2009, 08:06 PM:
 

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr

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I don't like the idea of the "Click" cues, as they will cause noticeable image jump and it would be possibly for the soundtrack to mask them. (You do changeovers with the monitor loud enough to hear the soundtrack, right? To avoid cutting off dialogue? )

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quote: Chris Slycord

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Maybe it's just me but wouldn't having the fog come in (to the point of making the image impossible to see through it) also make the on-screen image awful, even for a drive-in?

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Yes. At which point most patrons leave.

We once had a double of Rocky Horror and Phantom Of The Paradise...250 cars lined up to get in. They got in and about 30 mins into Phantom in came the fog. We then had 200 cars lined up to get out. Bummer for them was, as soon as interval hit, the fog disappeared so everyone who stayed (all 50 cars) got to see Rocky Horror with no fog whatsoever.

We ran Phantom on 2000ft spools and did changeovers looking into the Century to see the cues.
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 05-11-2009, 08:13 PM:
 

quote: Chris Slycord

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wouldn't having the fog come in (to the point of making the image impossible to see through it) also make the on-screen image awful, even for a drive-in?

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quote: Robert E. Allen

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If you do use grease pencil make it a small mark not clear across the frame like I've seen some apparently half-blind operators do.

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We were talking about the guy who taught me about changeovers. This reminds me of a funny story he told me.

The theater he worked at had an Employee of the Month promotion. They'd put the person's photograph up in the lobby, near the concession stand. As time goes by, he gets his picture put up on the wall.

One day, he was walking by the concession stand and he noticed somebody had taken a grease pencil and drawn a big slash mark on the picture.
 

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Posted by Paul Burt (Member # 3743) on 05-12-2009, 11:00 AM:
 
Occasionally I've gotten prints from Japan with the tiniest punch-hole cue marks I've ever seen, maybe about 1mm across. Almost invisible to an audience, but large enough to be seen if you're looking closely. Although the Clint Phare marker works fine (yes, I prefer this to a grease pencil) I'd sure like to get one of those. Anyone have a contact in Japan?
Some archives insist that no marks of any kind, particularly scribed cue marks, can be added to any of their prints. For those I use a grease pencil, despite its visibility, and remove the marks after the screening.
 

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 05-12-2009, 01:22 PM:
 
I see a lot of those tiny punch hole cues on prints from France during the Richmond French Film Festival too, maybe one of our colleagues in Europe can shed some light on them.
 

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Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 05-18-2009, 06:05 AM:
 
Unless you are dealing with a brand new print (where the leaders and tails have never been removed), the actual change, or second cue, is not really needed anyway. Since you are standing by the 'incoming' projector you just need to listen for the splice (joing leader to film) as it goes through the gate. Assuming you have laced on the correct leader number, this should coincide with where the second cue would normally appear. Just hit the picture and sound changeover switches at this point!
 

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Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 05-18-2009, 06:42 AM:
 
The little timer in your head is all that you need once you hit the motor cue.
 

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Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 05-18-2009, 08:56 AM:
 
I agree with the previous post.
If you run change-overs these all the time, you develop a
sense of timing where you just "know" exactly when the 2nd
cue mark is coming.

Just how embedded that sense is becomes apparant whenever
I have to project silent films at less than 24fps.
I have to force myself to remember not to hit the change
over at the usual interval. Sometimes waiting for that 2nd
cue at 18 or 20fps seems like an eternity!
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 05-18-2009, 03:06 PM:
 

quote: Paul Burt

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I'd sure like to get one of those. Anyone have a contact in Japan?

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Paul, I hope I never see a print coming from your theatre after you've used one of those hole punches...
 

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Posted by Paul Burt (Member # 3743) on 05-19-2009, 12:27 PM:
 
Tony, I can't imagine why you'd want to see scribed circles rather than the tiny Japanese punch holes. Neither one can be removed, and the tiny holes are a lot less visible on the screen. And the prints from Japan are always the most carefully struck and shipped ones I see at festivals, with the least damage from previous screenings.
When I scribe prints, it's for a situation where the films are being projected in up to seven different venues by different projectionists (sometimes with varying degrees of experience), so there's no option of leaving off the second cue. Running five or six different prints in a row with 2K changeovers is challenging enough, considering that not all of the operators are that familiar with changeovers to begin with.
Listening for a head splice won't work either, since a lot of the prints I get are brand new.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 05-19-2009, 01:41 PM:
 

quote: Paul Burt

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Tony, I can't imagine why you'd want to see scribed circles rather than the tiny Japanese punch holes. Neither one can be removed, and the tiny holes are a lot less visible on the screen.

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I can tell you why: Let's say the print's been around the mill for a long time, and sloppy operators keep cutting frames off of the tail, to the point that the last frame of picture is the changeover cue. (I have seen this more than once.)

Now, with scribed cues, you can fill them in with grease pencil which blacks them out, and you can now add proper cues again at the right locations. The end result is actually pretty unobtrusive onscreen. This is a good fix for prints with multiple cues too...best of all, those who don't like it can wipe the grease pencil off and have all the cues they want.

With the holes there is no way to black them out.

The ONLY holes that belong in film are the ones for the sprockets.
 

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Posted by Paul Burt (Member # 3743) on 05-19-2009, 06:53 PM:
 
I would assume that if the last frame of picture has the changeover cue due to bad handling, then the correctly timed changeover cue would appear first and there would be no problem. And if a print is that beat up, the obtrusiveness of a tiny punch hole is not something that an audience would be likely to notice. Ever see those holes? They're tiny. Operators who clip frames aren't likely to try to hide cue marks anyway.
Besides, I try not to make decisions based on the incompetence of those who might follow. These imported festival prints rarely get that kind of abuse. More likely to be abused are domestic general release prints which already have lab cue marks.
Returning to my first question then, I assume you would prefer grease pencil to scribed cues.
 

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Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 05-19-2009, 07:29 PM:
 

quote:

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Do not use scribe circles! Grease pencil can wear off much too quickly. Instead, I highly recommend hole punches. Never miss another changeover again!

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Joe that brought back some memories from my early days , even over here in the land of precission projection we used to see prints ome in with puch holes, i will however admit there was no ecuse for missing the cues!
 

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Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 05-19-2009, 08:26 PM:
 
Why risk missing the changeover with the cue only in one corner? Get out your pocket knife and scratch a big X across the whole frame. Emulsion side, of course.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 05-20-2009, 01:21 AM:
 

quote:

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I would assume that if the last frame of picture has the changeover cue due to bad handling, then the correctly timed changeover cue would appear first and there would be no problem. And if a print is that beat up, the obtrusiveness of a tiny punch hole is not something that an audience would be likely to notice. Ever see those holes? They're tiny.

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To answer back in reverse order, yes I have seen the holes, yes they are tiny and yes they are permanent and cannot be covered up no matter what. And if the print is that beat up, why add to it with more hole punches? As I said, even scribe cues can be covered up with my method.

Did you not read all of what I replied?

And as for the part I highlighted in bold, how can you say that the original motor cue will be correctly timed when the actual changeover cue being at the last frame will be about a foot too early? Many is the film where I would have to hesitate a half to 3/4 of a second at the actual changeover cue to make sure I don't cut off dialogue.

The original instructions for a proper changeover used to specify that the sound changeover should lag about 1 second behind the picture to keep the sound correct.

Most films have music, background sounds or random stuff to help hide the changeovers. Try running "Chariots Of Fire" where every reel had dialogue at every changeover with your assumption and you'll be hacking up a lot of talkin.

If you're missing frames off the end of the reel, the proper way to re-do the cues is to re-scribe BOTH sets displaced by the amount of missing frames.

Otherwise you risk losing dialogue or other sound glitches, or flashing black frames from the tail of the outgoing reel on screen.

Changeover timing is an art, takes lots of practice and if done with precision, you should be jumping from the very last frame of the outgoing reel to the very first frame of the incoming reel. According to the many directors who have been to my screenings, I tend to hit the marks pretty well. (I'd better as I have been doing this since 1982.)

quote:

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Why risk missing the changeover with the cue only in one corner? Get out your pocket knife and scratch a big X across the whole frame. Emulsion side, of course. [evil]

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Martin, you're diabolical.
 

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Posted by Paul Burt (Member # 3743) on 05-20-2009, 11:08 AM:
 
I've been doing changeovers since the 1970s. If cue marks need to be added because there aren't any, the print will be new. I've never seen a chopped print without cue marks. If an old print comes in with many missing frames and a bunch of scribed circles (not uncommon in old studio prints), I use grease pencil so the operator will know which cues are the ones to use. There is no other reason to put any cue marks on an old print.
I don't use grease pencil unless I have to for the reasons stated in the posts above. They tend to transfer to earlier parts of the film, and they look ugly on the screen. Scribed cues can be covered up only on dark scenes. Once they're on the film they are basically permanent. (Not that many people notice them anyway. I've had frequent experienced moviegoers ask me how I know when to change from one projector to another, totally unaware that cue marks even exist.)
Those Japanese punch holes are nothing like what you'll get from a hole punch from Staples. I've run prints with them and they're far less visible that scribed circles, and are a lot neater when projected, unless your Clint Phare scribe has a new blade.
No solution is perfect. If there's any confusion as to which cues to use, it gets noted on the inspection sheet. In any case, any projectionist doing 2K changeovers, especially on foreign films, should carefully inspect the cue marks on each reel.

Years ago, I once got a print with staples in the center of four frames as cue marks. Too much trouble to lay on clickers, I suppose.
 

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Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 11-10-2011, 01:44 PM:
 

It has been 904 days since the last post.

 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 11-10-2011, 01:44 PM:
 
Many of the prints I've run over the past 5 years or so are from archives. All cues have to be removable.

I use grease pencil cues, and I have a method that produces a cue that doesn't dance around. Simply lay down a strip of paper tape to protect the part of the image you don't want to mark, and then mark each of the four frames from corner-to-corner. Then remove the tape.

(I might take a photo, but I think this is pretty easy to envision.)

If the shot is very dark, I make the cue a little more prominent (longer stroke).

I'm not a fan of the parade of scribed cues. When I see multiple sets of cues, I reach for the grease pencil.

The "clicker" idea is interesting. I'd imagine it would make the image jump, and probably have some sound ramifications, too.
 

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Posted by Jim Henk (Member # 3628) on 11-11-2011, 03:40 AM:
 
The guy I learned from went a step further. He taught to use the cue maker (only when absolutely necessary, mind you - short ends, etc) and then if the scene was dark, in order that the cues would only be visible to you, use a grease pencil over the cues, then clean off *all* the excess. The only grease from the pencil that remained on the frame(s) would be in the etch pattern in the circle itself. The result? Proper dark and stable cues with no other marks on the screen. Conversely, if the scene was light of course, then no grease pencil, so the cues would again, blend into the scene as much as possible. To use them, simply have very good eyesight, and pay VERY close attention. Worked very well, and was as professional as possible in a calendar repertoire house with old prints of classic titles.
 

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Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 11-11-2011, 06:12 AM:
 
One of the major problems with operator-applied cue marks, besides the obvious ones, is the amount of handling required on the bench which otherwise would not be necessary. Applying the Motor Cue also involves handling the print within the body of the reel - a bad idea.

Perhaps one of the things that might happen, as film becomes specialised, is that those companies / organisations that distribute prints in future will be much more receptive to ensuring that cues are applied in the lab, as by nature they will be much more focussed on the requirements of film projection.

Also, since it's likely that almost all film venues going forward will be specialist venues, frequently running archival material, they therefore will all have to have two machine changeovers. This will put the need for proper cues on prints back centre stage.
 

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Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 11-14-2011, 06:35 AM:
 
I just ran a print of a 1980s Japanese film (print came from UK) that was marked with grease pencil, and the entire reel endings were contaminated by tiny particles that had been embedded into the emulsion. So if you use grease pencil, please make sure you get it off properly.

If temporary cues are necessary, I use a thin strip of opaque tape which does not leave sticky residues. A start cue should be enough, I only put a C/O cue when the scene is full of fast movement (ShakyCam, ultra-fast cutting). If you know your projector and count down, you won't need a second cue.

With subtitled prints you often can use the captions as start cues. With ten reels of "Dancer in the Dark", I had to use tape cues on two reels only because there was no dialogue.

I noticed that on many older prints there are double and triple marks because projectionists were too lazy to search properly for the printed or scribed marks, the just slap their grease pencil marks over it. During projection, these unnecessary marks usually can be seen perfectly...

With release prints, I would advise to scribe correct marks permanently. Loss of frames at reel ends has become less of a problem with polyester base. Even if the C/O cue gets chopped off, it does no harm when the print is plattered, and any competent C/O operator will recognize the missing cue and be able to handle it, either changing over without a second cue or by creating a temporary one and compensate for the shorter distance when threading.

With archival prints, no permanent cues. Making C/O cues is the main source of dirt which will spread all over the reel during a print's life. I believe Brad decribed the effect when he wrote in another thread about keeping leaders off the floor.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 11-15-2011, 03:42 PM:
 
As with so many areas of film projection, I expected there could be a variety of approaches to this.

Jim -- I'm not 100% sure I understand what you are describing. I'm having trouble picturing this in my head. I guess I don't see the value in having a colored circle, versus a white one. Am I missing something?

quote: Christian Appelt

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With archival prints, no permanent cues. Making C/O cues is the main source of dirt which will spread all over the reel during a print's life. I believe Brad decribed the effect when he wrote in another thread about keeping leaders off the floor.

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quote: Tony Bandiera Jr

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we were not allowed to put any cues on the National Anthem

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quote: Jim Henk

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Actually, I'd love to find a cue maker today. Haven't ever seen one being offered.

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You just haven't asked the right person.

quote: Steve Guttag

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I'm not a big fan of gloves...I've yet to see any benefit because they get so dirty so fast...I just keep my hands clean and my fingers off the face of the film.

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quote: Jim Cassedy

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I worked at a military theater for several years too.
Once, I had some Lt.Colonel up in the booth on an
inspection tour. At one point as I was threading up the
National Anthem film, a bit of the leader touched the
floor. "DON'T LET THE STARS SPANGLED BANNER TOUCH THE
FLOOR!!" he SCREAMED at me. He wanted me to treat the
anthem film as though it was the flag itself , and I
was in no position to argue, so from that point on
I did as he wished.

.... They would update the anthem every few
years, and I found a whole bunch of old anthem films
stashed in a booth closet. .....

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quote: Steve Guttag

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I'm not a big fan of gloves...I've yet to see any benefit because they get so dirty so fast...I just keep my hands clean and my fingers off the face of the film.

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quote: Steve Guttag

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They leave too much residue. I don't know how Manny removes them without seriously over-handling an archival print.

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quote: Steve Guttag

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How do you wipe it off without abrasions?

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