Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Star Trek: Check your volume, I guess

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 05-18-2009, 04:33 PM:

Just got a broadcast fax:

"In order to protect the integrity of the vision of the film makers, the producers of " STAR TREK " have requested that you play the film at a minimum sound level of 7 DB's so that the audience can experience the sound effects as they wre intended."

Yes, I know what they're trying to say, but "7DB's" (?) shouldn't be too hard on our trusty old amps, eh?

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-18-2009, 04:53 PM:

I always make a point of running my movies at 7db. That way I know the audience can really hear the air conditioning and be comforted in the fact that it is operating and they are getting their money's worth.

[Roll Eyes]

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 05-18-2009, 05:28 PM:

Thats pretty funny, what are you going to do about it? Now I guess that 7db really means dolby 7? I guess that as the cars arrive you are going to have to install processors in all of them? Perhaps you could calabrate all the customers car stereos with a test film? Perhaps using a db meter you could do random checks of the cars, anyone not playing it loud enough will be asked to leave!

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-18-2009, 05:55 PM:

I remember when most movies came with memos "from the director" in the cans saying that the movie MUST be played at a volume level of "7". That doesn't seem to happen as much any more from what I have personally seen, though. With the typical shitty auditorium EQs I hear at local multiplexes, 7 would be much too loud. A better EQ enables higher volume levels since certain frequencies aren't slicing your ear apart. Most multiplexes seem to run at about 5.5, max. I run my movies at my theater at about 6.5 - 6.8 usually. NO complaints.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-18-2009, 05:59 PM:

I just use the old tried and true method of listening with my highly-sensitive ears and discerning the proper level. It must work because we virtually never get complaints either. Occasionally I'll hear a "Wow, that was LOUD!" comment, which I consider a compliment.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-18-2009, 06:40 PM:

Jane Campion faxed a note around to all cinemas here on opening day of 'Portrait Of A Lady' to play the film at '7' and no lower.

That thing was so freaking loud it ended up playing on 4.2!!! At '7' I could hear it in the booth...with the monitor turned down!

7! [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 05-18-2009, 06:42 PM:

quote:
Thats pretty funny, what are you going to do about it? Now I guess that 7db really means dolby 7? I guess that as the cars arrive you are going to have to install processors in all of them? Perhaps you could calabrate all the customers car stereos with a test film? Perhaps using a db meter you could do random checks of the cars, anyone not playing it loud enough will be asked to leave!

Yah... pretty funny, if you look at it that way, but I'm pretty sure they weren't thinking about drive-ins.

They don't have to worry about us. I have more trouble with multi-megawatt subwoofers than people who can't seem to get enough volume out of their radios... part of the risk of having digital playback stuff! [evil]

quote: Joe Redifer
I run my movies at my theater at about 6.5 - 6.8 usually. NO complaints.

Paramount will arrive shortly, to remove all of your prints.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-19-2009, 06:55 AM:

I usually screen all my movies and I set the fader setting for each of them.
Usually they run at 6.5/7. In my case Star Trek is being shown at 7.3

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-19-2009, 03:23 PM:

We just got a re-broadcast of the fax, now asking us to play it at "7 on the Dolby Fader." They must have realized that the original fax was becoming a joke on the industry's pre-eminent projection site.

However, what if you have DTS or heaven forbid, SDDS? I think we need another fax.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-19-2009, 03:30 PM:

What if I have an Ultra-Stereo processor?

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 05-19-2009, 05:01 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
We just got a re-broadcast of the fax, now asking us to play it at "7 on the Dolby Fader." They must have realized that the original fax was becoming a joke on the industry's pre-eminent projection site.

Yes... and now that they've made that correction, I fully understand what they're requesting, and will make a concerted effort to confirm my fader setting is at "7"... thereby sending a little more, or maybe less to the 20 bands of digital processing circuits that make up the front end box in my FM sound system. Surely, my customers will appreciate the nuanced difference the change, if necessary, will make to their evening's enjoyment.

The producers may rest easy, knowing this concern will assure that my customers will hear everything, from the loudest explosion down to the softest Tribble "coo".

What teamwork!

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-19-2009, 05:02 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
What if I have an Ultra-Stereo processor?

Then you need to push that Simplex down a bit more in that rubbish bin and make some room. [Razz]

quote:
assuming their air conditioner isn't running!

Why would they have air conditioning on? Surely you pipe it to each car. [Wink]

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 05-19-2009, 05:04 PM:

quote: John Wilson
Then you need to push that Simplex down a bit more in that rubbish bin and make some room.

Good one!

Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 05-19-2009, 05:05 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
They must have realized that the original fax was becoming a joke on the industry's pre-eminent projection site.

Could you direct me to that site? I like jokes. [Razz]

I don't have Star Trek, but I have very rarely ever had a print that I could run at 7. When I first started in projection a couple years ago, I used the CP650 in the big house at that theater as a benchmark for changing mixes over time. My first few months, I was running a lot of things at 6.5 or so, but over the next several months I had to turn the fader preset down on average, to the point where when I left a last year, the thing was at 5.5-5.6 for most movies (Wall-E being a notable exception, I played it at 6.5). So, as unscientific as that is, I find it pretty compelling evidence that in just that space of time, prints were mixed increasingly poorly on average, and when someone wanted to mix it right (Pixar), they did.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-19-2009, 06:37 PM:

There is also the matter of personal taste. I enjoy seeing movies in our theatre at 7, I think it sounds great that way although the dialogue is a bit louder than I think it needs to be. So we run everything usually around 6 or 6.2 which seems to be a happy medium. I don't think we've ever gotten a "too soft" complaint.

I do remember running Wall-E at 7 - and will try it on the Trek movie this weekend.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-19-2009, 06:44 PM:

"7" is a reference.

There are 2 factors: If your equipment is set up "by the numbers" and is exceptional, then 7 is a POSSIBILITY.

The audience must be trained to accept 7. If you run very low, that will become the "NORM" for your audience.

If anything is "wrong," then 7 won't work. If all is exceptional, then 7 CAN work.

Many of our customers are able to use 7, some are as low as 6 because they cater to the over 60 crowd, who demand low sound. Great way to eliminate your core audience over time. Louis

Posted by Tony Ratcliff (Member # 1196) on 05-19-2009, 07:24 PM:

And I thought it was just me that played each movie at a different volume level. I am still analog. And the analog sound tracks have gotten horribly worse in the last few years.
One film will sound awesome - clear and loud.
The next film will be horrible - muffled and low.

Here I was hoping that some day I'd be able to upgrade to digital and be done with all that.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-19-2009, 08:04 PM:

quote: Tony Ratcliff
One film will sound awesome - clear and loud.
The next film will be horrible - muffled and low.

The "Up" trailer sounds better than the Hannah Montana movie. I think that could just be her voice though.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-19-2009, 10:57 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
the over 60 crowd, who demand low sound.

I do not understand this. Their hearing has been damaged by their extremely advanced and incomprehensibly amassed age, yet they demand softer sound? Why? If anything, I'd think they demand it to be louder. They always crank the hell out of their TVs.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-19-2009, 11:34 PM:

Joe,

It's because hearing aids make pretty much all sounds significantly amplified, not just the ranges that they have trouble hearing. So if you scream next to a person who's using a hearing aid, you could easily see them wincing from it.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-19-2009, 11:47 PM:

I think it would be easier to turn the hearing aid down or remove it than to get up (which takes them 20 minutes), wander out and complain (walking down the hall takes another 20-30 minutes), wandering back into the auditorium, finding their seat and then sitting back down (possibly 45 minutes).

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-20-2009, 12:00 AM:

Yeah, but then they wouldn't have a reason to bitch at you.
"I wasted half the movie looking for somebody to turn down the darned volume!"

This way they get a free rain check and, if they bitch loud and long enough, they might get free popcorn. Most of them are retired. They have the time to spare.

Old people are a lot smarter than you give them credit for! [Wink]

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-20-2009, 12:29 AM:

A lot of times the hearing aids can't be adjusted easily, though some people just go ahead and take them out if they're gonna be in a situation that's loud anyway, especially since amplifying something that's already loud will make their problems worse.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-20-2009, 12:50 AM:

Siemens makes hearing aids that come with a little wireless remote control. You just take the little clicker, hold it up near your ear and press the button for the setting you want. You can program in several different presets, one for home, office, theater or what-have-you.

One of our regular customers has a set. They are pretty cool! [Cool]

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-20-2009, 10:17 AM:

Old people dislike the surround racket more than anything. It "covers up" the dialogue.

Posted by Rod Cornelison (Member # 5202) on 05-20-2009, 10:30 AM:

years ago i turned mine to 11 and ripped the knob off!! [thumbsup]

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 05-20-2009, 10:35 AM:

I agree with Mike. Dialogue is the most important part for the little ol broad crowd. They do not come to movies for explosions or jets or gunfire. They would be quite happy with good, clean mono sound.

Little ol broad, btw, is not age or gender specific [Wink]

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 06-20-2009, 12:04 PM:

Hearing loss isn't just about those people with hearing aids. An ever-increasing percentage of population has hearing loss, including people as young as high-school students.

Hearing loss doesn't mean you hear everything lower - it means that the threshold at which you can hear low level sounds increases and/or that the frequency response of your hearing no longer follows a normal curve. Also, you don't lose hearing consistently across the band - it can be frequency limited. In my case, for example, I have hearing loss in the mid-high frequencies, but remarkably, it's normal at higher frequencies. In addition, hearing loss frequently results in being more sensitive to loud sounds.

Most hearing tests only test up to about 5-7KHz, so you have to request special tests to have your hearing tested fully.

A recent study showed that at least 20% of high-school students have already experienced hearing loss, due to in-ear MP3 headphones, rock concerts, etc.

Levels at concerts (even Broadway shows) and clubs are now at absurd levels (IMO). One evening at such a venue can result in permanent hearing damage. One day, I predict there's going to be a class action lawsuit against such a venue, either by patrons or by employees.

I create websites for musicians and virtually every musician I know has hearing loss and tinnitus. I experienced tinnitus for a year after attending a concert with a slight cold, even though I wore hearing protection.

As reported in EQ Magazine (September 2002), OSHA put together a chart of maximum exposure times to various sound levels. Exposure beyond that time can result in hearing loss. It's based on an A-Weighted SPL level. The basis is 85db (equivalent to loud street traffic from five feet away) for which maximum recommended exposure is 8 hours. Loud classical music at 95db has a maximum exposure time of some 47 minutes. A subway passing (103db) has max exposure time of 7 1/2 minutes. Loud rock on stage (115db) has a max exposure time of only 28 seconds. Threshold of pain is considered to be 130db and above, but I've had pain at many rock concerts (but maybe that was caused by the quality of the performance.)

It seems evident that a greater proportion of the population, especially urban residents, is going to have hearing loss at ever-increasing rates and at ever-decreasing age levels. What does this mean for the theatrical industry? It means that mixers are going to have to mix for the highest level of dialog intelligibility - something which Dolby, THX and others have been pushing for 30 years. Especially in an acoustic environment which is subject to reverberation or "boominess", turning up the level can actually make things worse.

I used to frequently observe ridiculously loud sound levels in movie theaters, but that is a rare occurrence these days. It sometimes still happens with trailers, but even that happens far less than it used to.

I think you have to take complaints about the levels with a "grain of salt". When someone says, "it's too loud" or "it's too soft", there's certainly a possibility that it is, especially in effects movies where the director's weak ego forces the mixer to mix it loud, but I would propose more often than not what they really mean is that, "I can't understand the dialog."

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-20-2009, 01:23 PM:

OK, then here's a question.

The latest "setting request" comes from Technicolor. They describe situations in "The Proposal", where audience laughter (!) is drowning out subsequent dialog. Calling it a "sound problem", they're asking you to fix the issue by adjusting your setting to "7.5". They say this will "translate to 88 dbc (slow)".

What does that mean? Is it wise to ask the theatre to turn the volume UP? How does audience reaction result in a "sound problem"? Is this monumental waste of paper justifiably "green", given the likely result of all these notices?

It's interesting enough that we're told by the studios how to (generically) set our sound systems. Next, we'll be getting emails, describing how to confirm the proper number of perfs in our loops. [Roll Eyes]

Oh, wait... Brad and Joe have already done that!

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 06-20-2009, 04:08 PM:

Jack,

The problem they are addressing with volume change is a common one in comedy. It is called "pacing". That is where the comic gives the audience time to breathe and to laugh before delivering the next line.

Turning up the volume will not fix bad pacing but it will readily train the audience not to laugh.

If only we had learned something from VAUDEVILLE!

KEN

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-20-2009, 04:13 PM:

Dialogue intelligibility is certainly a primary reason for complaints. Lets face it, few theaters put in proper baffle walls and acoustics along with proper tuning to ensure this. The biggest problem I find though is with the tuning. Most systems are not properly designed nor tuned to handle a proper response in the low end, or worse...the physical theater walls are not built to such a standard to permit it, so theaters compensate by just rolling off the bass. These theaters, even though obviously not playing at "7" / 85db do hurt to listen to anywhere near that level because there is no low end to balance the higher frequencies and the sound system just ends up "shrieky".

Common tuning problems that I find will generate complaints are over-EQing (trying to get that final line "perfect", what I call the "Bose" bass curve (meaning the system design actually sucks, but the tech tries to compensate by boosting the upper bass frequencies), and not paying particular attention to the rolloff frequencies near 4-8k (which will ignite people with tinnitus and sensitive hearing).

I've gone into troublesome auditoriums that were at least adequately designed in the construction and equipment stage with poor tuning where they were running consistently at between 4-5 on the fader and after re-tuning and implementing a trailer fader of some sort, left with them running 6.5-7 all the time for the feature.

The problem is that it can't just be blamed on the tuning. Room construction and quality equipment also come heavily into play and most theaters cinch on this, making playing the movie at "7" / 85db impossible. Those theaters that were well designed and tuned properly DO play at 7 all the time WITHOUT these silly notices that the studios send out. Those that cannot play at 7 without generating complaints will play it lower. This is why the studios are solving exactly nothing with this waste of paper and resources.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-20-2009, 05:54 PM:

I quote Brad 100%.
And I'm not sure that 0.5 on Dolby fader is 3dB, I knew that 3dB is equal to +/- 1 point on the CP knob if I remember correctly.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-20-2009, 07:00 PM:

quote: Kenneth Wuepper
Jack,

The problem they are addressing with volume change is a common one in comedy. It is called "pacing". That is where the comic gives the audience time to breathe and to laugh before delivering the next line.

Exactly!

Thanks, Ken. [thumbsup]

quote: Brad Miller
This is why the studios are solving exactly nothing with this waste of paper and resources.

True, especially considering you could easily tune up your system to provide 85dB at "3", if you really wanted to.

Seems I once heard that some outfit set up their auditorium at full-up, just to prevent the "operator" from getting thing louder than they wanted.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 06-20-2009, 07:19 PM:

Though the technical isn't quite right (more on that), I think the request is basically reasonable. If in fact The Proposal's sound mix is such that people miss some important dialogue because of audience reaction, turning it up just a little bit is a reasonable reaction. It's not as good as remixing the track to avoid the problem in the first place, but that's not going to happen.

For most people, 1/2 of a fader setting (1.7dB) is well beneath the threshold that they can distinguish. Basically they're asking theatres to raise the volume by the smallest possible amount. It shouldn't hurt anyone or feel too loud, but it might be just loud enough to reduce the problem somewhat, or at least placate the relevant production executives.

For details on how much a fader unit really is, please see the Dolby Fader Settings to measured dB SPL. Ken from Dolby provides the answer for the CP650 (which is 3 1/3 dB per unit above 4.0 on the fader), and Steve G. provides some comments on the pre-digital fader characteristics.

Jack, your joke about perfs is oddly pertinent. Scott and I both had experience talking to the production secretary for The Proposal when they were looking for places to screen their dailies in Boston. She was very concerned that we might not have "4-perf anamorphic" capability.

--jhawk

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-21-2009, 04:55 AM:

I have a question: how many cinemas/projectionists check the volume of the movies they show? I used to check all my movies, screening them from beginning to end before regular shows. But many people I know just set a safe "5.5" (on sound system correctly calibrated for 7.0) and live happy.
So I agree with John: besides technical notes maybe what Studios are asking is "can you check your volume and have your customers listen properly to something we have worked for a long time??"

Sure, it's not just a matter of fader. But in my experience sometimes the projectionist keeps a very low volume just because of the trailers - despite the availability of an automation that could provide multiple volume settings.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-21-2009, 06:07 AM:

quote: John Hawkinson
Scott and I both had experience talking to the production secretary for The Proposal when they were looking for places to screen their dailies in Boston. She was very concerned that we might not have "4-perf anamorphic" capability.

...which makes as much sense as if I asked the labs to check their chemical temperatures... something I know very little about.

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 06-21-2009, 10:16 AM:

It's easy for that confusion in terminology ("4-perf anamorphic" etc.) to occur on the production side, since they are dealing with 3-perf and 2-perf Super-35, as well as anamorphic and non-anamorphic origination, so it's easy to see how a term like "4-perf anamorphic" can be coined.

quote:
But in my experience sometimes the projectionist keeps a very low volume just because of the trailers -

Wasn't the trailer loudness issue supposed to have been tackled by NATO, Dolby, TASA et al a good number of years ago?

Also...in my experience, anything mixed at Skywalker Sound always played at 7. I worked in a cinema where most films played at 5 1/2, but significantly, not Star Wars and Pixar material.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-21-2009, 10:38 AM:

quote: Brian Guckian
Wasn't the trailer loudness issue supposed to have been tackled by NATO, Dolby, TASA et al a good number of years ago?

Yes, but they failed big time as only they can. Trailers are still crazy-loud. Just listen to All About Steve.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-21-2009, 01:59 PM:

The MONO button is your friend. Don't be afraid to use it for trailers. They are all recorded stupidly loud and deserve to be collapsed to mono because the feature's audio should NOT be less impressive than the advertising in front of it.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 06-21-2009, 02:24 PM:

For clarity, I don't want make the production folks sound unreasonable. It's totally appropriate for them to want to confirm that any theatre supports their format when they're hiring it, and 4-perf anamorphic is a fine way to describe cinemascope. It's certainly possible that they might have been shooting 3-perf (or even 2-perf!), and so it's probably quite important that it be clear. So it's not like asking labs to check their temperatures.

It's just funny because you'd be hard-pressed to find a theatre that didn't support it. It would be like asking your lab, "Do you support process ECP-2E?" which is the chemical process for virtually all 35mm release print films.

Part of the issue with trailers volume is that I think it is legitimate for the average dialog in a trailer to be louder than the average dialog in a film, because there are people talking and other ancillary noises that go on during trailers, which is fine, but someone who wants to be able to listen to dialogue during the trailers ought to be able to do so.

Unfortunately, this is a slippery slope, and one which it seems the studios slide right down a bit too fast.

--jhawk

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 06-21-2009, 06:37 PM:

quote: John Hawkinson
It's just funny because you'd be hard-pressed to find a theatre that didn't support it

Unless, of course, your theatre has converted completely to digital!

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-21-2009, 07:43 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
the feature's audio should NOT be less impressive than the advertising in front of it.

Quite the conundrum when showing Woody Allen movies.