quote:

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Confirm that you are running Scope Format (1.85:1)

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However, great help from Pixar!! Two thumbs up!!
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 05-24-2009, 01:35 PM:
 
That's a pretty serious mistake on a Prefect Projection instruction page. You would think SOMEONE there would have caught that.....and fixed it. Let's see how long before they do. Unless we are all wrong and it is indeed an anamorphic print that results in a 1.85:1 image on the screen. Really unlikely.
 

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Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-24-2009, 02:24 PM:
 
And the site's contact info doesn't have an email to send someone about this big flub-up.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-24-2009, 02:25 PM:
 
It is exactly what they said. Use the scope lens with 1.85 masking. Come on guys, you call yourselves professionals??? Don't forget to run the volume at 7db too!
 

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Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 05-24-2009, 02:57 PM:
 
We've already received our digital copy and according to the spec sheet its supposed to be shown in 2k 3D FLAT 1.85:1(1998x1080). We don't have 1998x1080 in the 3D option, but we do have it for 2D. Is this a typo or do I need to contact our installers to setup the 1980x1080 3D?
 

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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 05-24-2009, 03:42 PM:
 
Wow, what the hell happened over there at Pixar?! Good grief.
 

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Posted by Matt Fields (Member # 3211) on 05-24-2009, 04:59 PM:
 
Jeremy-

Only the newer projectors can do "full chip" (1998X1080) 3D. Just run it on your regular flat 3D channel, it will look fine.
 

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Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 05-24-2009, 05:27 PM:
 
Hey Matt,

I'm using a Christie 2000ZX installed 4 weeks ago. Should it have the full chip 3D?
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-24-2009, 06:02 PM:
 
Yes. triple-flash ZXs have been shippin for some time now.
 

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Posted by Matt Fields (Member # 3211) on 05-25-2009, 04:12 PM:
 
I got my ZX in January. I do have triple flash, but my dealer told me at that time that Christie was selling non-triple flash ZX's at a discount price to customers who had requested the M projector.

Perhaps Jeremy's theatre got one of those, but I have no idea if Christie is still doing that.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-26-2009, 06:48 PM:
 
Eheh, they've corrected it!
 

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Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 05-27-2009, 01:16 PM:
 
Okay, anybody know about 4K for UP? My most favorite theater ever just acquired one of those ill-advised Sony 4Ks for their main auditorium, and I am curious if they could possibly have full 4K resolution. Does the Sony even have triple flash to play 4K 3D if the content were there? I'm going to the premier, and will post my impressions of their new system (Sony and Real D, CP500, no idea on the server) in the video forum.
 

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Posted by Peter Castle (Member # 1997) on 05-28-2009, 02:59 AM:
 
Sony's 3D system splits their 4K chip into two 2K parts, so there would be no use in a 4K 3D source, and I very much doubt the existence of such.
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-28-2009, 04:50 AM:
 
The SXRD (or any 4k projector) takes *four* 2k signal to make up one 4k signal.

But that's just nuts and bolts, what does it have to do with the actual question? When we say a 4K 3D source, of course we mean whatever is necessary to produce 4k output, be it 4x dual link HD-SDI or whatever. (HD-DCI for Sony?)

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 05-28-2009, 09:12 AM:
 
DCI specifications (I guess we can call it "standard") don't spec for 4K 3D (4K-48fps). If such thing existed, which is does not, wouldn't be officially supported by DCI.

DCI compatible equipment must support 2K-24fps, 2K-48fps (which can be used for 3D) and 4K (24fps).

John: what's HD-DCI? Never heard that one before. For the time being, Sony takes the 4K input through dual srlv inputs. The logical thing would be that they eventully implement a quad 3G-SDI input.

On top of all that (4K 3D not being a supported standard in DCI specifications, thus no servers support it, etc), CGI animated features would be substantially more expensive in 4K than in 2K, as 4 times as many pixels would have to be rendered. And, if it was to be in 3D, then 8 times as many pixels would have to be rendered compared to 2K, driving the cost way too high for little perceived improvement.

And Sony projectors could only do 4K 3D in up to 30fps-per-eye (single flash), meaning it is not really suitable for 4K 3D.

It can do fine 2K up to 60fps, 2K-3D up to 60fps-per-eye (others can't really do 3D properly at over 24fps-per-eye) or 4K up to 60fps. But 4K-3D, it's not really suitable for doing at all. I mean, it could do it at up to 30-fps-per-eye, but it would flicker a lot at 30hz (a regular film projector, with a two-blade shutter, does 48hz ... imagine a film projector with only 1 blade in the shutter and you get the approximate idea).
 

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Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 05-28-2009, 10:22 AM:
 
Okay, I think that answers my question then. I'm assuming that the projector downsamples by using the center of the chip and zooming, then? That might be good since I am always wary of corner brightness on underlamped installations (read: most digital, especially 3D). Thanks for the help, I am somewhat willfully oblivious to DLP. Once the projectionists are gone, we're one step closer to evil robot overlords.
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-28-2009, 08:41 PM:
 
Oops, sorry. Not "HD-DCI." I meant "DC-SDI."

And I have no idea what it is, either, other than the SXRD supports it. I asked a while back in this thread: Blu-ray for $100, but nobody answered...

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 05-29-2009, 05:58 AM:
 
It sure would be nice if someone would publish a glossary of all this alphabet soup designations which seem to multiply like rabbits with the advent of digital.

As for DCI-compliance, whether or not a new process or new way of configuring existing protocols fits into the existing DCI specs -- is the DCI spec being modified as new stuff comes along? Say someone comes up with an workable, superior 8K system, surely the industry should come together to modify the existing DCI specs at address newer technologies. If it doesn't, then it will only become an impediment to progress rather than a ruler by which everything is kept standardized.

It would be like if the SMPTE never included and defined TODD-AO's new 70mm specs once it was developed into workable, viable system. But even worse because the SMPTE only issues Recommended Practices; it doesn't have the power DCI seems to have. In other words, if Christie or whoever comes up with a way to project 3D in 8K at triple flash rate and using lasers, and it works -- the last thing you would want the studios to do is shy away from the new technology just because it's not compliant with a spec that was written before that technology was even conceivable.
 

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Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 05-29-2009, 09:54 PM:
 
Well, the way I see it is: right now, DCI wants equipment to do (basically) and in order of MY perceived importance:

-Keep a very high security data path so that it is very difficult to pirate the film (digitally). Other than projecting it and videotaping it, of course. Even then, the security measures calls for (eventual) watermarking of the picture and audio with all the information leading to the theater and time/date the recording happened (again, even when video-taped/audio-taped/recompressed/etc).

-A minimun of on-screen quality for the projector. This is (roughly) defined as full on/off contrast of 2000:1 (around 400:1 ANSI), 14fl screen illumination, 2K minimun resolution. The way I see it, as long as a projector does at least 2K, I don't think they have any problems certifying a theoretical 3K or 8K projector or, of course, a 4K. For 3D, for the time being, although they WANT 14fl, they are allowing light levels way below that (between 3.5fl and 5.5fl) because, until recently, most setups weren't able of much more and you may get more ghosting with more light. I think they'll eventually demand 7fl+ for 3D as a minimun somewhere in their (updated) specs.

-That all servers (players) play back encrypted DCP (Digital Cinema Packages) of 2K-24fps, 2K-48fps (suitable for 3D as well as for improved motion) and 4K-24fps, with optional subtitles (captions) and uncompressed soundtracks (up to 250Mb/s).

Those, I think, are in "2 words" the goals of DCI. They don't define all the hardware details, such as how servers should communicate with projectors, other than it must meet their security requirements (FIPS-3 Level 3).

Since most projectors are based on Texas Instruments DLP projection "heads", most servers implement communication with the projector through an encryption scheme of sufficient security that TI calls "Cinelink II" and that they implemented over a slightly non-standard version of the widely used video transmission protocol in the a/v industry known as HD-SDI ( SMPTE_292M ).

What they do, is encrypt the signal travelling out of the server (which must also license and buy chips for cinelink II) and into the projector, similarly equipped.

HD-SDI was thought for the transmission of signals of HD resolution (1920x1080) digitally and uncompressed over a cheap single coaxial cable, like the ones used in cable TV at quite large distances. But, it was thought-out for signals with color subsampled 4:2:2 and at up to 10bits in quality.

Since DCINEMA specifies their signals slightly above this (2048x1080, 4:4:4, 12 bits), then the cheap way out was to use two of these serial interfaces HD-SDI together and carry "half" the information for the signal in one cable and the rest of the (additional color) information on the other.

Thus, most servers communicate with (TI) projectors using two non-standard, encrypted, variations of the HD-SDI standard outputs/coaxial cables/inputs. This has UNOFFICIALLY started to be known as dual DC-SDI (Digital Cinema Serial Digital Interface) instead of HD-SDI, since DCI is now sort-of a wide standard on itself. It would mean the usage of dual HD-SDI to transmit 2K-4:4:4-12bits-XYZ within the DCinema industry instead of the original intention of using it for HD-4:2:2-10bits-YCrCb signals within the Television industry.

But there are other standards, like the blooming 3G-SDI ( SMPTE_424M ), which, when used in a non-standard way, could allow the transmission of a DCI 2K signal over a single cable instead of having to use two, like it's being done today.

Eventually, 3G-SDI may lead the way to the future, since it's getting kind of messy to have to use two cables for a regular 2K projector, 4 cables for dual projectors (Imax), and 8 cables to a theoretical 4K projector.

Also, when you do 3D over a "regular system" (i.e. not-dual-projection), since the server only has a dual HD(DC)-SDI connection and current projectors only has a dual DC-SDI input, they must downgrade the quality of the image throwing away half of the color resolution (4:2:2) and using only 1/4 the amount of possible colors (10 bits instead of 12 bits), because the 3D signal doesn't fit at full quality through the only two cables the way it comes on the DCP package from the studio.

If you have a server with quad HD(DC)-SDI outputs, like some do (and is an option on others), then you can use the full quality of the signal when paired with a dual-projection setup (like Imax) for 3D as well.

Once again, DCI is closing their eyes at 3D being commonly shown at 4:2:2 10 bits for the sake of it being the cheap way to do it currently with a single projector, and giving the scheme their blessing in spite of such an image being hardly (at all) any better than a blu-ray disc, specially in Scope 3D movies shown on 2K projectors.

Sony has its own way from the server to the projector, so it can also preserve the full resolution and color depth when playing back 3D.
 

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Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 06-01-2009, 09:36 PM:
 
I discovered that the Show Start cue for 3D Flat 2048 actually switches the projector into 3D Flat 1998x1080, so apparently its tagged incorrectly.

This did get me to thinking though, what are the current resolutions in use and if we are properly set up other than the apparent mistake with the 3D Flat 1998x1080. Below is a list of the Show Start cues that were set up for us:

2D Flat 1998x1080 on Channel 1
3D Flat 1920x1038 on Channel 15
3D Flat 1998x1080 on Channel 13 (tagged as 2048x858 in server)

2D Scope 2048x858 on Channel 2
3D Scope 1920x804 on Channel 16
3D Scope 2048x858 on Channel 14

We are using Christie CP2000ZX's with GDC servers.
 

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Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 06-01-2009, 11:02 PM:
 
I haven't started to work with DCI servers yet, but it looks fine to me.

If you have an older non-triple flash non-"Brilliant 3D" projector and the movie is 3D flat, you use your

-3D Flat 1920x1038 on Channel 15

If you have a newer projector, then you use:

-3D Flat 1998x1080 on Channel 13

...which seems to be misstagged in your server.

If it is Scope, same thing:
-3D Scope 1920x804 on Channel 16 for non-triple flash old projectors
-3D Scope 2048x858 on Channel 14 for newer ones

There is no (true) setting for 2048 flat, as DCI specifies 2K flat 2D-or-3D as 1998x1080 and 2K Scope 2D-or-3D as 2048x858.

The other smaller resolutions (1920x1038 and 1920x804) are, once again, compromises made for earlier projectors that couldn't support the whole resolution in 3D 48fps, and DCI turned a blind eye to in order to rush the adoption of digital, but that doesn't really meet their own specs ...

Worst case scenario: you have an older non-triple flash projector with a 3D Scope movie. You are actually probably putting on the screen a 1920x804, 4:2:2, 10bits picture, at 24fps. If you are watching Smallville or American Idol on your TV, you are watching a 1920x1080, 4:2:2, 8bits picture, probably at 30fps (or 25fps).
 

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