Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Angels and Demons

This is topic Angels and Demons - On the floor in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Scott Christopher (Member # 834) on 05-24-2009, 09:17 PM:

I don't know where this happened, I'm told somewhere in Sydney (Australia)

Posted by Don Furr (Member # 1469) on 05-24-2009, 09:36 PM:

LOL....too much Film Guard...it slid off the platter.

Posted by John Henry (Member # 3084) on 05-24-2009, 09:42 PM:

Considering the turnout...thats where it belongs LOL

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 05-24-2009, 09:47 PM:

Are you sure that's Angels & Demons?

It looks like only 6 reels worth of film. . .

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-24-2009, 11:00 PM:

That print didn't slide off of the platter. It ran through the projector and onto the floor. Probably a shitty splice jammed in the failsafe holding it up but the platter wasn't properly engaged for takeup.

Posted by John Koutsoumis (Member # 1855) on 05-24-2009, 11:11 PM:

It pays to do several walk by's during the running of the show. Looks there is film taken up on the top platter but not much so I guess for 2 hours or so no one was watching. Happened to my once but only the last 2 reels. Learnt my lesson the hard way [uhoh]

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 05-25-2009, 01:52 PM:

That happened to me once for about one reel. Never could figure out why. Thanks for the hint Brad. BTW I didn't build it.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-25-2009, 09:44 PM:

Every time I see a picture like that my heart drops through the floor!

Not only is that a whole shitload of film that is potentially destroyed, some poor schmuck has to pick it all up and get it back onto the platter!

If done right, carefully rewinding from the tail end without disturbing the pile, it is possible to recover the print with minimal damage. A trip through the cleaner will FilmGuard will fix 90% of it. But, as we all know, some dipwad popcorn jockey is going to try scooping all that film up and, in the process will end up with it tied in big, knarly knots.

As John K. said, checks every 20 minutes or so would have nipped this problem in the bud.

Posted by Scott Christopher (Member # 834) on 05-25-2009, 11:25 PM:

Properly installed fail-safe devices, correct film handling procedures and the banning of 'kids' to operate the machines would prevent this from happening. 20mins of film can be a nightmare to pickup but alot easier than the whole print.

The previous cinema I worked at have started operating with 1 operator for 2 locations. There's 7 screens on one side of the road, and 3 screens on the other side... The 2 buildings are atleast 100metres apart. Sadly, the cinema industry here is slowly turning into McCinemas.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-25-2009, 11:43 PM:

quote: Scott Christopher
Sadly, the cinema industry here is slowly turning into McCinemas.

Oh, come on...that's a bit rich!

That happened years ago. [uhoh]

Posted by Scott Christopher (Member # 834) on 05-26-2009, 12:07 AM:

I was being kind.... somehow [Smile]

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-26-2009, 12:46 AM:

So was I. [Razz]

Posted by Jarrad Salmon (Member # 3818) on 05-26-2009, 05:31 AM:

I hear you guys, seems popcorn and choc tops are more important to some cinema managers... Looking at the photo I think the platter system is a Christie?

Not many locations in Sydney with Christie platters... Kinda narrows it down.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-26-2009, 08:17 AM:

Mc Cinemas: we reached that point about 20 years ago in the US. That is the only reason why I removed the AAII's we had. The kiddos could not deal with them; they were passable on the Century and Simplex. Louis

Posted by Jim Bedford (Member # 4) on 05-26-2009, 08:56 AM:

Talk about a "horror" picture! This pix is worse than one of two nekked guys riding tandem on a bicycle in front of a rugger team.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 05-26-2009, 09:26 AM:

And how much you want to bet, no matter what the condition of the print is when it gets shipped out after this was done to it, that theatre won't get billed for the damage you KNOW the booth monkey is going to cause trying to deal with this mess. I'll even bet you one more, that in all probability the theatre management won't even be notified that damage occurred. As long as it's back on the reels and they get the right number back, that the beginning and end of it.

Believe me, if theatres got billed back when prints are damaged in their care, theatres would address the competenecy issue of the booth personnel who handle the prints. If it doesn't hurt them in the pocketbook, stuff like this could happen every day....so what?

Posted by Tim Asten (Member # 4051) on 05-26-2009, 02:34 PM:

The platter is a Kinoton.

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 05-26-2009, 05:12 PM:

I agree its a Kinoton, I think I recognise the booth, I am probably wrong but I suspect the projector is on a lift and is 20ft up in another room, only lowered for threading purposes.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 05-28-2009, 09:44 AM:

quote: Scott Christopher
1 operator for 2 locations. There's 7 screens on one side of the road, and 3 screens on the other side...

That sounds similar to my current job.
I've got 6 screens located in two buildings seperated
by two city blocks. It's sometimes a bit of a challange,
but all that running back & forth and up & down all
those booth stairs keeps me from getting too outta shape!

Posted by Fred Tucker (Member # 4482) on 05-30-2009, 03:55 PM:

THat picture reminds me of a couple of years back when I got a phone call @ 2:00AM, exact same thing happened for a midnight show of Flying Scottsman (i think). Not a big deal really, just time consuming. Move the mut into place and and start winding slowly, a couple of hours later and a few shows with film guard aand good as new. Not sure it was worth the effort though as the movie only lasted 1 week here and did less than 20 in attendance for the week.

Posted by Jarrad Salmon (Member # 3818) on 05-31-2009, 04:29 AM:

yes, I was wrong about the make... but it is easy to narrow down the probable location of the booth.

Posted by Jonathan Althaus (Member # 5042) on 06-17-2009, 08:02 PM:

We floor-fed 70 mins of this film today. Must be something with the movie, just wanting to be on the floor. Pics to come shortly......

Posted by Darren Ward (Member # 4394) on 06-22-2009, 11:21 PM:

Just to dispel all the speculation...

The platter is a Kinoton. The projectionist on when it happened is a 13 year veteran. The top plate which you can't see contained what was left of Angels and Demons. The accident occurred after the film had run completely through the projector; once through, the tension on the platter arm sitting under the plate is totally relieved and as it jolts back into it's final position, it pulls the tail of the film along at an alarmingly high speed. On very rare occasions, disastrously so as in this circumstance, the film wrapped around the platter's spine whilst still in high speed run off. Tension on the arm is re-engaged and the plate starts spinning in the opposite direction at the same high speed, and predictably, a lot film ends up on the floor, and a lot wraps tightly around the platter spine. The mess you saw occurred in around a 15 minute period.

I'd love to go into further detail, but am reluctant to. The photo you saw was sent via MMS to two people. One of those people transferred it to an email and then it appears to have exploded from there. Eventually it got back to the managing director, who was less than happy about our dirty laundry being so widely visible. I was actually a little stunned to see it posted here, but then again, I guess we're a very small community even on a worldwide basis. Needless to say, this has caused a lot of angst for several people responsible for letting the cat out of the bag.

Incidentally, the problem has been resolved by adding a projector shut-down command to the last pulse, effectively leaving the tail of the film in the gate. A simple solution, but one that often never occurs until necessity brings it about after an incident such as this.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-23-2009, 12:33 AM:

Thanks for the information. It certainly does dispel a lot of speculation.

What the suits don't realize is that we've all seen this kind of thing before. Most of us have probably seen worse. (I've seen a platter pulled over on its side by the projector when the film wrapped around the payout.)

To them it's more of an embarrassment. To us, although embarrassing, it's more of a cautionary tale. We stand up and say, "This is the kind of thing we need to teach people how to avoid."

Trouble, as unpleasant as it is, brings the capacity to deal with it. Those who have never seen this kind of trouble won't know how to deal with it if or when it does happen.

None of my projectionists know how to fix a brain wrap because none of them have ever seen one in person. It may be a good thing that we've not has a catastrophe in the booth yet. But it is also bad that my operators will be dumbfounded when it finally does happen to them.

Your management obviously wouldn't want to trumpet this event to the heavens but they certainly shouldn't try to sweep it under the rug, either. They should be doing two things:

1) They should be spreading the word to other theaters that this can happen and should be telling them what to do to avoid it.

2) They should make the photo available to interested parties in the theater industry and helping to get the word out: "This can happen to you if you don't watch out!"

Even though it might be embarrassing at first, posting this picture ultimately HELPS the exhibition industry.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-23-2009, 12:34 AM:

Makes you wish you had an AW3! [Smile]

Be careful about the MOTOR OFF command though. The first time you interlock, you may not find that such a good idea.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-23-2009, 12:35 AM:

Hi Darren

Welcome to Film-Tech.

I assume it was still spinning out when you got there. Do you have the red holders on the platter take-up arm?

Easy fix though. I agree about the interlock thing. [thumbsup]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-23-2009, 12:50 AM:

quote: Darren Ward
The mess you saw occurred in around a 15 minute period.

That is actually quite impressive in a very destructive way. Did I read your post correctly in that the platter started to spin in the opposite direction? What kind of platter system would allow this? Why would this "feature" ever be needed? Kinotons are reeeeaally weird. Why does Australia love them so much? It's all they seem to use.

Last Wednesday night one of our guys threaded the wrong movie on a split house. Wackiness ensued and suffice it to say when I came in Thursday to build a bunch of movies, a print was on the floor. The morning guy didn't know how to handle the situation that was left for him and the night guy didn't bother leaving any notes. All shows that day had been canceled. I fixed it in about 15 minutes. The guy who was the cause of all the grief is gone (he had other issues as well).

Posted by Darren Ward (Member # 4394) on 06-23-2009, 02:27 AM:

Thanks for the feedback guys. The projector this platter runs to is on a hoist, and is usually suspended around five metres from the ground. As far as I know, it seems to be a fairly uncommon set-up so those Australians among you who do recognise the location based on that description, could you please keep it to yourselves for the moment, there is still a bit of fallout from this circulating photo!

Due to the distance of the platter from the projector, coupled with the fact that film is falling such a great height, this seems to accentuate the speed with which platter spins once tension on the arm is released. I'm not a particularly technical operator so I don't understand why the platter spins in the opposite direction once the arm is tightly re-engaged, but it does. It has happened to me once before, though I was nearby when it did. The Angels and Demons incident happened to my counterpart.

Fortunately due to the set-up of this projector, interlocking is not possible.

Thanks for the warm welcome John, and yes, platter continues spinning until physically stopped!

Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 4255) on 06-23-2009, 03:56 AM:

quote: Joe Redifer
Why does Australia love them so much? It's all they seem to use.

AW3s, and thankfully so.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-23-2009, 10:30 AM:

Interlocking is ALWAYS possible. The next time I am in Australia I'll fix that for you. [Cool]

Posted by Darren Ward (Member # 4394) on 06-23-2009, 01:41 PM:

I should rephrase that, interlocking in this case is certainly possible though tricky. Regardless, management will never do it!

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-23-2009, 03:47 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
Interlocking is ALWAYS possible. The next time I am in Australia I'll fix that for you.

And that would be...? [Wink]

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 06-23-2009, 05:38 PM:

Why did the platter spin in reverse? Its called the Coriolis Effect.

Sorry guys, I couldn't resist.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-23-2009, 06:04 PM:

I don't know John. Do you have a location with two neighboring cinema complexes across the road from each other I can play in? I've always wanted to interlock one print between every house in two completely separate complexes. I understand there is a 30 and a 24 plex in this situation somewhere in California. Whew, my pants are getting kinda tight! [Cool]

Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 4255) on 06-23-2009, 06:47 PM:

I want someone to interlock across postal codes, or at least a state line.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-23-2009, 07:05 PM:

quote: Rick Raskin
Why did the platter spin in reverse? Its called the Coriolis Effect.

Sorry guys, I couldn't resist.

It had to be brought up eventually. [Wink]

quote: Brad Miller
Do you have a location with two neighboring cinema complexes across the road from each other I can play in?

There's one in Castle Hill that has two separate locations...problem is, they've just converted one of them to all-digital. They do retain two houses with 35mm and digital though so it is still possible.

[Wink]

Posted by Jarrad Salmon (Member # 3818) on 07-06-2009, 05:52 AM:

Thats right John,

I have been given a schedule once with a interlock between the two locations... Would be interesting seeing the film run through the shopping centre, food court and fire exits!

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-06-2009, 06:08 PM:

When you want to do that interlock Jarrad, just let Brad and I know and we're there. [thumbsup]

(If you would please make sure it's not raining, that would be a help to the slave screen's results.) [Wink]

I've now managed to interlock 5 of my 6 booths. You can see a video of the previous interlock (missing two of them but at the building extremes ) here. As soon as I get time, I'll post the additional screen connection that now goes through the floor.