Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Cinema Expo 2009

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Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 06-25-2009, 12:51 PM:

Well it's officially over and I am right now in my hotel room thinking what to do next so instead of waiting for the weekend to share my thoughts I thought to go ahead and try it out from here while I still have my thoughts gathered. Well starting up from the presentations in the auditorium they decided that this year all shows will be in Digital. WOW! They tried so hard to get all the maskings, colours, alingnments right that this year they forgot that they have to also eq to the auditorium. I mean in was really bad! And adding to the greatness of the experience pixels here in there throughout the presentations especially in backgrounds and smokes. I mean seriously guys is this your idea of Cinema done right! I despised every moment of watching the D-Cinema presenations. I was so happy that we were ran downtown to the Pathe cinema for the Transformers presetnation and also watched the hilarious Bandslam in pure 35mm! Now that was a quality presentation. Well getting back to the auditorium. This year they did actually a good think as they had 3 Christie, 2 Barco and 2 Sony projectors in the booth and showed films in all systems and all types of 3D so it was a great chance to make a comparison. From all the presentations I found that watching movies on the Barco range provided crisper and deeper images. Christie lacked the depth of Barco and Sony GEEZSZZ. Someone came on stage saying well we did this survey blah blah b;ah and people noticed blah blah blah. Well at the end they said that a third party survey was conducted with 150 vieweres of something to see if they see a ny difference between 2K and 4K. They claimed that ALL could see the difference. Well Hello people of the industry were in a packed auditorium why the heck didn't you make a real comparison there showing half 2K and half 4K the same sequence to see. Anyway Sony sucked as usual. The 4K CineAlta logo stopped the sound halfway. It's a Sign! Don't go Sony! Other projection problems was during the presentation of "You Are Not Stypid" a lot of digital artifacts freezing pixels during the presentation and also during playback of Alvin and the Chipmunks 2 the sound was not synchronised with the image and people claimed it was the file from the company. Well geez it gets even worse. Also during the Imax presentation of Transformers, black spots a[[eared and dissapeared throughout the movie (static spots) so I was thinking oooh there is the flawless Digital presentation. At least with film you have the chance to get rid of some of those with FilmGuard right? Next comes the ultimate 3D experiences. Well guys I have to say that by far Dolby is the brightest. With RealD presentations my eyes and brain hurt by the end, XPand is clearly not a plus choice due to the silly active glasses and in case of Real D or Master Image of course Master Image by far. I found Master Image presentation to have a deeper 3D depth but I don't know if that was because of the footage. RealD really seemed dark. Also the most comfortable glasses to wear were the Dolby glasses. This years' parties were not up to the usual standards and the crisis even prevented people from filling the Rai exterior with movie Posters unlike other years. The main aspect of all speeches e.t.c were Buy 3D. 3D is good for business. 3D this 3D that blah blah blah. Well that is as far as the presentations. Moving in to the trade show floor.
JBL did not even bother to come this year for some reason. I saw some brands making speakers I did not even know they existed. Alcons audio introduced a ribbon type of HF horn claiming it never burns and has better reproductions. I have to admit they sounded good. Christie was there with all D projectors and no 35mm equipment signaling the closing to the end of 35mm from Christie, X-Pand was there, Ushio, Osram, ASL, NEC, Barco, Sony of course claiming how their 4K is much better than anyone elses' 4K to come, Proyecson was there and showcased a spool tower and some rectifiers now projectors, Irem as usual, Kinoton had the E series and a D Cine projector, USL was there of course Clint Sam and the guys with all kinds of stuff and the new D-Cinema processor, QSC tried to bring one speaker and a processor in their booth but nothing else, Dolby showcased their new server and audio processor, DTS showed their XD20 unit and their new Qube pwered Cinema server, Cinemeccanica showed their new D-Cine projector which uses the Barco DP3000 light engine but employs a Xenon lamp up to 8K making this and their CMC4D2 solution the brightest in the market, they even created a smart way to be able to easily move the dolby filter weel in a matter of minutes from one screen to another, they had the V5 console and quite a lot of people, Prevost did not come this year, Lots' of chairs and erneman had 35mm projector as well. Meopta did not come. KCS was there with a broad range of display, Jack Roe and I guess that was it. I had the chance to tamper a bit with the servers. I wwould choose the XDC server purely for its ease of use, built in projector diagnostics/configuration tool and with a touchscreen coming as standard. Then I would choose Dolby, then the Qube DTS solution and then anyone else. A lot of TMS systems were shown and I guess that wraps it up. Well I did enjoy the show no matter how much I did not like the whole D-Cinema part but anyway I congratulate the Sunshine group for a great show another year. Hope to see some more of you guys next year there.
Demetris

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 06-25-2009, 06:52 PM:

One would think that after all the issues at previous trade shows the manufacturers of digital projectors would make certain that there would be no problems or half assed presentations, or is what Demetris experienced the best that can be expected.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 06-25-2009, 09:14 PM:

You have a limited amount of time for setup and there are (at least) three projectors being installed, (at least) three different 3D systems to install, three or four servers being set up and their shows loaded... all at the same time. It would be nice to have enough tome to do it all right but this is rarely the case at a permanent cinema installation and roughly never at a trade show.
For a show like the Academy Awards the setup takes weeks, there are innumerable technical rehearsals and run-throughs and dress rehearsals. A trade show site usually opens for exhibitors a day (or sometimes two if you're really lucky) before the show itself.

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 4784) on 06-26-2009, 04:41 AM:

Interesting comments about 3D, Demetris. I was invited yesterday to a big Disney hoopla, with several hundreds of journalists, exhibitors, etc. After successfully showing "Up!" at the Cannes film festival they wanted to have a preview event in Paris. A lot of people came with some kids (yes they had been allowed to bring the little ones along) and the screening almost turned into a riot.

They had chosen to show it with the Xpand system. I had been previously quite impressed with the system at a preview showing of Monsters vs Aliens, so I was looking forward to seeing a Pixar film using these active eyewears. The system failed to deliver.
The projection of "Partly Cloudy" was catastrophic. Image never in focus, loads of aliasing and ghosting and a vast majority of glasses not running in sync!

As "Up!" was starting, they stopped the projection. Some poor Disney guys came on stage to apologize, saying that they would try to fix the problem and that we would see "The Proposal" and have dinner first. This is when the yelling started. As I said, a lot of people had come with their kids and had obviously NOT planned to stay for dinner and to watch the Sandra Bullock film.

I raised my voice and asked if they had a back-up 35mm print. They had. The whole audience agreed to simply see the film in 2D and less than half an hour later the showing finally continued.

I am not against D cinema. When it works, it really works. Most people can't make the difference between Silver and Server. I admit I was fooled a couple of times. But yesterday's incident proves that systems need to co-exist, at least for a little while longer.

Now, where I can I see a demo of the Master Image 3D on these shores. That looks quite intriguing...

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-26-2009, 05:06 AM:

Yes Dave I understand but these are technical demo. If you show a poor presentation in these exibitions, how can you expect to move a customer towards your products?
I've seen so many "demo" with screwed up presentation...

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 06-26-2009, 07:28 AM:

quote: Dave Macaulay
A trade show site usually opens for exhibitors a day (or sometimes two if you're really lucky) before the show itself.

Been there, done that with ComNet. To add to the confusion, the booths were often staffed by marketing types with little or no technical skill.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-26-2009, 10:07 AM:

Demetris,
The sound at Showest also always sucked beyond belief. Never EQ'd properly and played back at levels so high I that didn't know that many db even existed.

Of course... Sony has blown more demos over the years at shows than all the other manufacturers combined!! One tme at NAB Christie allowed Sony to use their CP-2000 cause Sony's 4K wouldn't work. Never mind the fact that at NAB no one knew that Sony 4K demo actually played in 2K.

Mark

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 06-29-2009, 01:31 AM:

Interestingly enought on the first day there was an "interactive challenge" and a question came up about what do people think about 3D. Most of the attendees claimed that its' another way for the rippoff of the exhibitors. Picture that! I was expecting more comparisons between 2K and 4K in real and "flawless" presentations of D-Cinema (after all that is the ONLY + in the D-Cinema) which failed to deliver. Sorry guys but 35mm beats the hell out of everything.
Demetris

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 06-29-2009, 10:15 AM:

So what you guys are saying is that due to various constraints the half assed presentations Demetris experienced ARE about the best that can be expected at a trade show.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-29-2009, 01:38 PM:

quote: Bill Enos
So what you guys are saying is that due to various constraints the half assed presentations Demetris experienced ARE about the best that can be expected at a trade show.

Exactly, Trade shows are no place to do any type of serious comparisons on either sight or sound... They are a place to go see manufacturers, other buisness aquaintances, friends, whats new in equipment, and eat at all the best food places and drink at the best bars those places have to offer!!

Mark

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 06-29-2009, 02:25 PM:

Mark, you're right about trade show screenings.

It wasn't always that way, but, starting with ShoEast in Atlantic City and continuing up-to-date, the people who did the screenings had no motivation except cash. In the past, I did many "portable screenings" representing Warner Bros for over 10 years. We had the BEST new equipment, with several of the best (competing) technicians. It was a blast. Uusally the only time we techs saw each other. (I represented "management" or Dolby depending upon the contract. Dolby didn't have techs outside NYC and SF yet.

Imagine what a Film-Tech screening would be like if 10-15 of us "took over" the screenings at one of the shows. Louis

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-29-2009, 07:45 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
Imagine what a Film-Tech screening would be like if 10-15 of us "took over" the screenings at one of the shows.

I'd volunteer for sure! Where do I sign up at? [Big Grin]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-29-2009, 07:54 PM:

Count me in!

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 06-30-2009, 12:50 AM:

Me too but running the 35mm stuff [Big Grin]

Posted by Christos Mitsakis (Member # 143) on 06-30-2009, 07:10 AM:

...and the 70mm stuff...

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 06-30-2009, 08:16 AM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
Imagine what a Film-Tech screening would be like if 10-15 of us "took over" the screenings at one of the shows.

A bunch of guys arguing about the merits of film v video, changeovers v platters, simplex v century v kinoton and how many supwoofers to put in? [evil]

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-30-2009, 10:14 AM:

Don't forget emulsion-in vs. emulsion-out winding, JBL vs. Electro-Voice vs. Altec speakers, Harkness vs. Hurley vs. MDI screens, ISCO vs. Schneider, and xenon vs. carbon arc.

Most likely, the "screening" part would never actually happen, but the debates would be fun to watch.

I'm still not sure why it's so hard to get these trade show screenings correct. I've seen temporary film and video installations elsewhere that went off perfectly.

Posted by Pietro Clarici (Member # 4937) on 07-07-2009, 10:04 AM:

quote: Demetris Thoupis
Well guys I have to say that by far Dolby is the brightest (...)

I think they were using *two* DP3000s there(http://www.dcinematoday.com/dc/PR.aspx?newsID=1482), so it's not surprising they had the brightest image...

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 07-07-2009, 10:58 AM:

Christie was using also 2 projectors for the Real D presentation. Still Dolby beat the hell out in brightness.

Posted by Pietro Clarici (Member # 4937) on 07-08-2009, 01:09 PM:

I could be wrong, but AFAIK every Real D presentation has been on a single projector setup with the new "light doubler" XL system described here: http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/f16/t000403.html.

Anyway, the Infitec system is known to be one of the least efficient in terms of light output. It has virtually no ghosting, but there is a reason why they are recommending to install a high-gain screen to go with it, or, as you confirmed, why Cinemeccanica here is trying to get a 8kW lamp into their updated CMC4s. I mean, exclusively from a lumen-per-watt standpoint there are better 3D solutions out there, and probably better projectors than Barco/CM too.

For example, I've been told that MasterImage has upgraded glasses and a new filter wheel coming out in October, which would be cheaper, approximately 15% more efficient and completely cross-compatible with Real D glasses (which I find odd). Now, that with a Christie and a properly curved screen would be my choice... until, of course, it will actually be possibile to get two projectors for the price of one + the 30K MI system.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 07-08-2009, 11:53 PM:

Trying to upgrade existing screens though make the silver screen a very bad drawback point. Also adding the royalties of the Real D sure does not make it a favourable system. Dolbys' system however is the correct compromise for existing screens. Master Image beats the hell out of Real D that is for sure and that is what I mentioned in my first post in this thread. As far as projectors I do stand that the Barco range seemed to me better than the Christie or even the Sony showcased in the auditorium.

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 07-10-2009, 02:45 PM:

Haven't seen any digital 3D movies yet, but every time I've seen a digital 2D print in a regular theatre, the presentation has been surprisingly excellent. No pixelation, no blocking, no noise, rock steady, very even screen brightness, etc. The only thing I haven't liked is that in spite of the fact that these digital prints are supposed to have uncompressed sound, the sound frequently sounds shrill and metallic to me...not sure why that is.

The only thing I've seen so far that's disturbed me is that when I saw the latest Star Trek at the Ziegfeld in New York, there were these horizontal blue streaks in many scenes. At first I thought those were purposeful, but they also existed in the desert scene. I couldn't tell whether this was a digital print problem, a projector problem or something else. I had wanted to sneak into another screen to see if it also existed in 35mm, but I wasn't able to. Anyone else notice this?

So I have to think that all the problems you experienced were due to the non-permanent facilities, although you'd think they could have done better.

Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 07-11-2009, 07:44 AM:

The blue lines were created by hitting the anamorphic cameras lenses with flashlights. Usually these streaks only appear when bright light sources are in the frame or light hits the lens front surface, but STAR TREK's director & DP decided to put them in almost every shot. Because it looks so cool.

It's been discussed here in detail:

cinematography.com : Forum>STAR TREK