Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Pro 35 Scratching

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Posted by Rod Cornelison (Member # 5202) on 06-26-2009, 12:15 PM:

Hey guys,

We just bought a 4plex in a mall to add to our collection of theatres. We have their Pro 35's and a couple of the prints have developped scratching on the emulsion side of the print. It's at the same spot on every frame so I'm thinking it has to be something in the main gate/intermittent area. either that or possible operator error (making loops too big maybe?)

I attached a image of what the scratches look like.

All help is GREATLY appreciated,

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-26-2009, 12:24 PM:

lower loop hitting the stripper plate on the intermitent or the large roller that absorbs the beating of the lower loop
usually pro35 scratches are from loop size issues

Posted by Rod Cornelison (Member # 5202) on 06-26-2009, 01:28 PM:

That's what I was leaning towards. I thoroughly went over each one and looked for burs or anything that might scratch the emulsion side. I've told my booth operators to make sure their loops aren't very big. I guess I'll have to tell them again.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 06-26-2009, 01:34 PM:

Or instead of telling them, show up at random and check their loops.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 06-26-2009, 02:58 PM:

Check beat roller below the intermittent sprocket. Look for signs of wear caused by the film. Replace the roller. I have seen scratching issues caused by this roller.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 06-26-2009, 03:05 PM:

I second Chris' reply, you need to drop in unannounced and check up on your operators to make sure they're threading correctly. Experience has shown me that they'll do it right every time as long as you're hanging around, but after you leave they'll go back to their own habits.

Give repeat offenders two chances to snap in, or else they're fired. And stick to it.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 06-26-2009, 03:26 PM:

Telling is just that.

Inspect and verify! Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-26-2009, 03:40 PM:

quote: Darryl Spicer
Replace the roller.

Screw that... replace the projector! They should have never been allowed to place Pro in front of the 35!!!

Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-26-2009, 07:57 PM:

Common on mark they could have had those wonderfull chineese machines instead :
Overall the Pro35 was a decent machine I still have enough of them running with next to no issues

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 06-26-2009, 08:06 PM:

And keeping track of who did the scratches is obviously a good thing.

Posted by Michael Hossen (Member # 4274) on 06-26-2009, 08:11 PM:

Yeah, come on Mark. We've been running Pro35's for at least the last 15 years and they've been great.

I've never had any issues with scratching prints, but I would say it's associated with the bottom loop being considerably too large.

Check your operators when they aren't expecting you to come in.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-27-2009, 08:31 AM:

quote: Michael Hossen
We've been running Pro35's for at least the last 15 years and they've been great.

Sure, as long as you never or very rarely use the framer... But then why bother to have a framer... too many weak spots in that machine. Especially the intermieetn!!

Mark

Posted by Michael Hossen (Member # 4274) on 06-27-2009, 10:03 AM:

In my 3+ years working with the machines I think I have only ever used the framing knob once or twice, and that's when someone else made a mistake and cut a trailer out of frame.

We train our operators so that they never thread out of frame, and they don't, but for the few occasions that we've needed to use the framing adjustment, it's been ok. I know the framing mechanism is a downfall of the machine, but I still think they're pretty decent.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-27-2009, 11:50 AM:

I'm glad they have been good for you but wait till you have a major film pileup... happens to everyone sooner or later... Thats when the Star Wheel radius gets bent [Eek!]

. Costs more to buy the parts to repair it than the whole projector is worth... Thankfully, I can claim to having removed more Pro(?)35's from service then I have ever installed. I can't think of one that I still am servicing in fact. Also many parts have been discontinued by Ballantyne... wait till you need an important gate piece.

Mark

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 06-27-2009, 02:34 PM:

Mark: I agree. Their time has passed. How do you know? Even Strong has discontinued making them and several key parts. Really good equipment is commonly available due to the Digital influx. (Simplex/Century)

On the other hand, it WAS an imperfect copy of an FP-35, which Ballantyne once distributed. Louis

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-29-2009, 05:55 AM:

The Pro35 was a very conflicted machine AFAIC. It's quiet, built like a tank, relatively gentle on film, has a shutter that even a 7kW bulb can't burn through, and I like the oil-submersed mechanism concept. The accompanying sound head also works well, if you keep an eye on the shaft bearings.

However...

That framing coupler is its Achille's heel. I've never seen a Pro35 (even new) that didn't have more vertical jitter than any other projector I've ever used, regardless how often you turn the framer. If you're not sensitive to that, the machine is otherwise decent, but still obsolete. The jitter does drive me crazy, which puts it at the top of my "worst" list. I also don't care for it's mounting scheme... different than everything else out there.

I'd go with the other comments, regarding your scratching. I don't think the machine can do that if it's threaded correctly.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-29-2009, 07:56 AM:

Out of curiousity, what chains/theatres bought/installed these? I've never even seen one in real life.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-29-2009, 08:13 AM:

quote: Scott Norwood
Out of curiousity, what chains/theatres bought/installed these? I've never even seen one in real life.

Moyers Theaters which is now defunct probably bought more than any other chains did but I am sure there are other largish chains that had them... GKC Theaters in Illinois bought alot of them too. Ballantyne sold a setup consisting of a pair of them automated in which you used hour reels and once the change-over occured the first reel was run backwards through the projector to rewind it [puke]

.

Actually there is a second even more major achilles heel that has appeared since the introduction of estar base film... None of the steel parts inside of it are hardened. Thats what really sets apart the Century and Simplex from the Pro(?)35. The afore mentioned two all have hardened steel gears and intermittent parts. Thats why I said... wait for that film pileup to happen!! Ouch!

Mark

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 06-29-2009, 08:43 AM:

quote: Scott Norwood
Out of curiousity, what chains/theatres bought/installed these? I've never even seen one in real life.

Carmike had them in lots of their 1980's builds. In one of their abandoned theaters here in Montgomery, they left all 8 of their Pro35 (incase anyone is looking for parts).

I recall using them in a few theatres in the DC area in the 70's-80's. The thing I recall most was the operators manual that had a cartoon dog narrating the whole way. Pretty clear it was not meant to be used by professionals.

Posted by Edwin Graf Diemer (Member # 545) on 06-29-2009, 09:02 AM:

quote: Scott Norwood

Out of curiousity, what chains/theatres bought/installed these? I've never even seen one in real life.

The Sameric chain out of Philly loved those systems too-I think it was called the "Sword" made by Eprad. Mark is right-horrible, cheap machine, and jitter was always a problem. Poor sound head too. They broke down often, and once the theater I was at switched to platters the second projector in each pair were used for parts.

[ 06-29-2009, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: Adam Martin ]

Posted by Rod Cornelison (Member # 5202) on 06-29-2009, 12:02 PM:

The theatre we aquired was originally a Carmike, then CEC, now it's ours.

On the scratch, I ran a loop of green screen through and threaded it normaly and everything was fine, no scratch. I then increased the size of my bottom loop and BAM! same scratch, same place. it IS hitting the film stripper on the intermitent.

Big thanks for all the help.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 06-29-2009, 02:28 PM:

The best news yet: You have determined your problem! Louis

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-29-2009, 02:37 PM:

Glad to hear you found the problem!

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Moyers Theaters which is now defunct probably bought more than any other chains did

That's where I ran most of the ones I was around. The Pro 35 installs survived as Moyer became Act III, then Regal. Neither company replaced many of these machines, as far as I know. For that matter, they don't seem to replace/upgrade much of anything after they install it, though I've seen some nice total makeovers.

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 06-29-2009, 02:55 PM:

Mann Theatres installed 4 Pro-35's to be run with hour-long reels when they converted the Fox Twin in Lubbock to the Fox Four in 1974. 3 different machines in that booth until they got 2 sets of 5-deck Potts platters in 1987, then they took out the Simplex 35s and the Norelco DP70s.
Back in 74, a fellow named Cecil, who was the main union operator at the Fox then, took a trailer, went to Omaha and picked up the Pro-35s. The only reason I can think of for him doing this was so Ballentyne could show him how to set-up and operate the units. Any time one of the other projectionists would try to steady the image by jamming a pencil eraser in the gate, he would get irate and complain "I went to Omaha to get this, and you are NOT going to jam an eraser in the gate!"
I wondered then why Ballentyne didn't just ship them down here...

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 06-29-2009, 07:24 PM:

The company I worked for back in the 80's was Mid-States theatres. They had these projectors in practically all of their locations and a lot of them set up for reel to reel operation. They were not the type that Mark mentions but You could rewind on the projector but not through it, the film went around the front of it back up to the supply reel. The location I worked started as a 6 screen it was 4 platter and two changeover until they made it a 10 screen. I spent 7 1/2 years working with those things. Then I jumped ship to a different company and started working with simplexes. During that 7 1/2 years I got to experience som Centurys and Westars. Gained a lot of experience in those first 8 years...

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-29-2009, 08:32 PM:

quote: James Westbrook
I wondered then why Ballentyne didn't just ship them down here...

Don't know. Probably the system's best selling point was that it was pretty much a self-contained plug-n-play system. A two-projector setup came with automations that could be run as single-machine or 2-machine changeover. Amplifers were available in each base, one being active and the other sitting in the "slave" machine as a spare.

During construction, Ballantyne would send a raceway with all the auditorium and projector interconnects punched out on sockets. You mounted the raceway, connected power, speaker (they were mono), curtains and lights. When the machines arrived, they were put in place, plugged into the raceway, apertures cut & that was pretty much it. All of the systems I worked with came with Strong lamphouses, mounted and aligned. The 2kW supplies could be mounted in the base, if desired, though it made servicing a bit harder. We usually mounted them outside.

I worked in several single-screen houses that Moyer bought and multiplexed (ruined). Between them, I had original booths that were equipped with decades-old Brenkerts, E-7s XLs and Centurys. Right off the truck, not one of the brand new Ballantyne machines came close to the image stability of the projectors in the older booths, regardless of brand. To this day, I have never seen anyone get close to locking one of those machines down without frequently shovelling money at them.

The lack of hardened parts wasn't so much a problem, unless as Mark said, you jammed the machine. Internal parts tended to break and bend, under the right (wrong) conditions.

Otherwise, there was a lot to like. Too bad Ballantyne couldn't finish the job.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 06-29-2009, 09:42 PM:

quote: Jack Ondracek
Neither company replaced many of these machines, as far as I know.

When Act III renovated Cinema World in Eugene in 1995 (expanding from 4 screens to 8 in the process), they went Simplex. Maybe that was an exception.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-30-2009, 02:39 AM:

David, I think the love affair with the Pro 35 originated with Tom Moyer. Some of us were convinced he had stock in the company. I don't know of any Ballantyne installs after Tom Moyer & his "Luxury Theatres" (in Washington) became Act III. The sentiment was not shared by his brother, Larry, who had his own chain.

Up here, Act III was about half-way through a new build when Regal bought them. The theatre is very nice... none of Moyer's equipment or (thank God) color schemes. Simplex machines throughout, dual digital audio in each console (all SRD, half DTS, half SDDS). Regal finished the job very nicely. It's probably the best theatre we have in this county.

Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 07-02-2009, 02:13 PM:

Cobb Theatres used them at the Madison Square 8 [now 12] in Huntsville which opened in 1985. I always noticed a lot of jitter in images there. Touchstar Cinemas now has that theatre and while Regal had it, I believe they replaced all those projectors with another type (and they also put in stadium seating, digital sound, and adjustable screen masking). The Gateway Cinema 4 in Decatur (closed May 2000) may have had one of those projectors in one auditorium, but I can't find where I stashed that info.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-03-2009, 04:42 PM:

Ballantyne offered Moyer a leasing option with the PRO35

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-04-2009, 06:15 AM:

At one time the US networks all used Simplex XL-modified telecines. All was well. Then came the Ballantyne based telecines. Jitter and ghosting filled the airwaves. 4-5 years later, all was well. I assume they went back to the XLs.

They (Ballantynnes) handle film well, however. Louis