quote: Monte L Fullmer

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horizontal scratches are from the platter

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These are vertical scratches running from the top of the frame to the bottom.

These are definitely base side scratches. They are very visible and I can feel them when I run my fingernail sideways across the frame.

I've explored the entire film path and I can't find any place obvious where the scratches might have happened.
 

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Posted by Jon P. Inghram (Member # 4125) on 07-05-2009, 01:59 AM:
 
On a AW3 it's possible to thread the film over the metal bracket on the bottom roller on the sliding cluster and put nice fine black scratches down the entire print.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-05-2009, 08:22 AM:
 
You didn't say if the scratches stood perfectly still, or if they had a rhythmic bounce to them slightly left to right.

(Only older AW3s with the black rollers could Jon's example above happen.)
 

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Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 07-05-2009, 02:14 PM:
 
If you can rule out the sound drum - I am assuming you have a Simplex 5 Star sound head with that 1050 - check the bottom most pad rollers in the sound head. I have seen these freeze up and start scratching a print.
 

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Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 07-05-2009, 03:59 PM:
 
Brad, the scratches are pretty much steady through the entire film.

After looking at things more closely, I'm left to think the person who threaded that show may have threaded through the wrong spot on the brain wrap detector. This would have left the film dragging on a metal shaft - although I'm not sure the scratches would have been perfectly steady in this case.

The other possibility is the person had the film inside one of the posts on the brain, but I don't see how this wouldn't have caused a brain wrap.

I'm going to have to spend more time looking at it closely when I get in today. Brad's comment making me realize the scratches were steady leads me to think more and more that it's a place where the film is locked into place.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-06-2009, 12:10 AM:
 
What kind of "Simples" sound head do you have? 5-star or the SH1000 or whatever it is called? 5-Stars have the swinging tension arm. The other kind has two sprockets after the actual sound drum.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-06-2009, 02:49 AM:
 
If the scratches are steady, you can pretty much rule out the platter.
 

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Posted by Jonathan Althaus (Member # 5042) on 07-09-2009, 01:20 PM:
 
We have 1050's here and one had non-soundtrack side vertical scratches. Turns out a screw and spacer were missing on the intermittent shoe. The intermittent was rubbing on the misaligned film.
 

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Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 08-14-2009, 06:54 PM:
 
I've had these same scratches turn up on several more prints, all in the same house. I've been over the projector and platters with a fine tooth comb, and I can't find anything obviously wrong.

I have run several test loops to try and find the source of the scratches and the only thing I found that would duplicate them is someone threading the film over the bracket for the bottom roller on the take-up side, rather than in the roller. Although I can see this possibly happening once, I just can't see it happening multiple times.

One thing I have found is that the rubber wheel on two of the platter decks were worn pretty badly. On one deck the wheel looked dried and shriveled and on the other it was like it had been ground down by running the platter. It does seem this was causing inconsistent speed, which could have been causing the base side to be dragging on the split fingers for the brain. In fact, on one brain there was a bit of a grove cut into the inside finger about the height of the top of 35mm film. I just don't know if this combination would cause vertical scratches that are perfectly steady.

Any thoughts appreciated.
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 08-14-2009, 07:21 PM:
 
A picture might be helpful...

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Jon Petersen (Member # 5016) on 03-05-2010, 06:32 PM:
 
...well...what happened?

I came across this thread with very little hope in my heart. But I felt a giddiness grow inside my belly as I read Justin's dilemma. I am having the SAME problem. Long, thin, black scratches from my Simplex 1050! The more I read Justin's post, the more and more it sounded like I had written it myself. I have checked and rechecked and re-rechecked every inch of the film path and found nothing. "This is it! Here comes the solution!", I thought.

These forums have always supplied me with more answers and useful advice than I can say. I love the community aspect that you all have built. There is an amazing partnership among all of you as well as a feeling of 'these-people-really-understand-me' that makes me feel both welcome and envious. I truly thank you all for the free advice that you have unknowingly given me.

I am sorry that I haven't thanked you all before and I feel a bit ashamed to say it now, as I ask for even more help.

Justin, I guess I am directing this your way:

What happened? Did you find the source of the scratches? I feel like the last pages of a mystery novel were ripped out of my book. I thought I had a solution coming my way as I scrolled down the page, but no. Maybe I don't deserve and answer, seeing as how I have freeloaded for so long. But I swear by my dog that from now on, I will attempt to actually contribute to these boards, rather than just take.
I will leave behind my selfish ways and attempt to make these boards even better with the inclusion of my limited knowledge.
I patiently and humble await a reply.
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-05-2010, 06:36 PM:
 
Hey, Jon! Post some pictures and we'll see if we can help!

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 03-05-2010, 06:38 PM:
 
What I found was a roller on the brain which was not spinning freely. We had one particular roller where the round shaft the roller mounts to had come loose from the hex nut base. This was on an AW3 platter that was new in 1997.

I'm still not comfortable I know exactly what was causing the scratches, but the moment we stopped using that brain the scratches stopped.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-05-2010, 07:59 PM:
 
Note, a common cause of base scratches on a Simplex (except the Millennium) is an upside down intermittent shoe. The hardware that is being used will often rattle the screw loose and people put the shoe on any old way (experience has shown that they get it wrong 95% of the time).

If one looks at the shoe carefully, they will see that the radius of the shoe is much shorter (smaller) on the exiting portion of the shoe than the entrance.

This shorter radius pulls the film away from the tang that holds the shoe. If the shoe is put on upside down, and depending on the tang, and the depth the gate closes, the end of the tang WILL rub the film.

I highly recommend having a stick of blue-loctite (looks kinda like chapstick) Amazon picture of Blue Loctite ...it will keep the screw from rattling off but does not prevent one from removing the screw. I like the stick form of loctite because it doesn't dry out in one's tool case nor get all messy. Do NOT use RED however!
 

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Posted by Jon Petersen (Member # 5016) on 03-06-2010, 12:48 PM:
 
I think I can rule out the brain being the source. I've swapped the brain with others from other booths. That's not it.
One theory that has been floated my way was that it only takes one or two 'mis-threadings' to initially cause the base sratches. Then as the print is run more and more, the scratches fill with dirt and oil, making them appear on-screen to be getting worse. (I guess that is where Film Gaurd comes in. I just hope the higher-ups will agree to make the investment.)
This mis-thread theory seems to make sense being that this is the only Simplex I have (The three others are Vic 8s), and this is the only auditorium where the scratches are occuring.
I will try to get some pics up.
Thanks for your input.
 

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Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 03-07-2010, 02:02 PM:
 
Jon

If you really want us to help with your scratching issues, you need to post a picture of the damage...without it we're just flying blind.
 

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Posted by Jon Petersen (Member # 5016) on 03-08-2010, 03:04 PM:
 
PROBLEM SOLVED!

Fortunately, I figured it out. Unfortunately, I can place the blame squarely on my own shoulders (more or less). I was lazy, then I was blind, then I was stubborn.

It turns out that one of my floor managers, who is no longer a regular projectionist, but will occationally (average less than two times per week) thread a film when we are short-handed, has been consistantly mis-threading that projector for weeks. An incorrect film path through the film detector allows the projector to run perfectly, while scratching the cuss out of the print.
Since taking over as a floor manager, she had a hiatus from threading any film. Recently, she has been called upon to thread a couple of times. I should have re-evaluated her more thoughouly before she resumed some of the projection duties. (That was me being lazy.)

Of course, when the scratches first occured, the first thing I thought of was that someone must be mis-threading. I even suspected the very same incorrect film path as a way that the film could be scratched, but thought,"No. That can't be. No one would actually thread it that way." (That was me being blind.)

Finally, after being told over and over that the problem does "not lie with the machine" and rather "with one of your projectionists" by my local cinema service guys, I refused to listen. "No. That can't be. They wouldn't do that. My people are reliable. It has to be the machine." (That was me being stubborn)

I was actually in the process of having each of my projectionists thread the machine while I watched, just to eliminated the possibility of the claim being made. The first two guys checked out fine. Just before I was about to test the threading capabilities of my floor manager, twenty wrong things happened at the same time (as they often do). In all of the chaos, she ran upstairs, threaded the film and started it while I was taking care of nineteen of the twenty wrong things. Thirty minutes later, I ran upstairs and was horrified! There it was! The misthread! In the same place that I suspected then discounted. I stppped the film (Alice in Wonderland - 110 people in the auditorium), corrected the path, and started it up again.

Long story, I know. Thanks for reading. Thanks for your help.
Hopefully I won't need it anymore.
 

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Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 03-29-2010, 09:40 PM:
 


As I said before, I was never able to figure out exactly what was causing our scratches before. In the last week we've started getting identical scratches on the same platter. Right now they are fairly faint and I'm running with film guard every show to help make them better.

I am nearly positive this is a platter problem, but I don't know what is causing such steady and perfectly vertical scratches.

What I did to make the problem go away is time the platter, disassemble and clean the brain, changed the platter bearings on one deck, and there might have been one other thing.

I haven't been having any problems with this platter in general, but occasionally it won't take up right away on the first show of the day, causing the projector to shut down immediately after it starts.

Last night I did find the middle deck was lagging a bit on payout so I turned up the HI pot a small amount.

This is a simplex 1050 with a Christie AW3 that was new in 1997.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-30-2010, 12:17 AM:
 
Justin, I have seen scratches like that before on one of those ancient Simplex soundheads (not the 5-star, the one that has two sprockets in it). Is that what you use? If so, you'll likely see the base side of the film lightly rubbing against the pad roller on one of the sprockets at the loop. Solution: make smaller loops.
 

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Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 03-30-2010, 01:24 AM:
 
Joe, I'm nearly 100% certain these scratches are related to the platter. I remembered that when this was happening last summer we stopped using the middle deck and stopped getting scratched film. I just wish I could peg down what is actually happening.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-30-2010, 11:06 AM:
 
If the scratches are rock-steady then I find it unlikely to be the platter.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-30-2010, 12:07 PM:
 
If the scratches are being caused by a stopped roller then it could be the platter, but if they were caused by the film rubbing across a post or a guide, then I'd think the scratches would move around from side to side a little.
 

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Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 03-30-2010, 12:48 PM:
 
Have you laced the film up and stopped the machine when the scratches appear? Carefully inspect every contact point where those scratches are located (looks like you have at least 4 starting just left of center and over towards the right)paying special attention to those surfaces that contact the base side of the film since the scratches are black.

Also, can you post pics of your entire setup of this machine?
 

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Posted by Matt Skilton (Member # 5288) on 04-12-2010, 05:15 AM:
 
Hi guys, we're having a mysterious base scratching issue at the moment. The scratches tend to be very faint and very wavy, ranging from Left-Hand side, Centre and Right-Hand side in the same prints (although the majority are Centre and RHS). We can't even pin it down to just one projector or platter because it's happened to many prints, some of which haven't shared the same screen. They are also intermittent; some reels are fine while others have a more continuous scratch.

We also use AW3 platters and Vic-5 projectors. We've inspected the rollers and film paths and can find nothing wrong. It's very frustrating as we'd really like to find out what's doing it.
This week we've changed all the feeder unit guide bars and tips so that they are now all smooth but we are clutching at straws with this one it has to be said.
 

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Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 04-12-2010, 10:04 AM:
 
The last two times I've seen scratches such as you describe,
it's been caused by a dragging (optical) sound head drum,
or a misthreading in the soundhead area.

But check the sound drum carefully. Last year I had one
sound head drum that passed the "spin test" but I later
discovered that when I spun it with my finger it looked
and felt 'OK', but after about a minute of film running
through it, it began to slow down due to a faulty bearing.
It still looked like it was turning normally, but it was
dragging just enough to cause long, steady vertical black
lines through the entire print.

I finially discovered and confirmed the problem using an optical
tachometer, and comparing the speed of the 'bad' sound head
flywheel against the speed of the flywheel in another projector.

I think the bearing cost me well under $50 to replace.
Unfortunately, the print cost about $1800 to replace.
 

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Posted by Matt Skilton (Member # 5288) on 04-13-2010, 04:40 AM:
 
Cheers Jim. My colleague (Tom, who is also on these forums) also suspected the sound drum as, apart from the feeder until, it's the only part that can potentially rub against the whole print. I shall try and investigate as best as I can. I'm suspecting one or two screens that could be the culprit.
 

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Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 11-02-2010, 01:32 AM:
 
I think I may have finally figured out what was causing this problem.

Tonight while I was cleaning the film gate, I noticed the black was wearing off on the little curved piece the intermittent shoe mounts on. On further inspection I noticed that one of the little tabs on the spacer block had broken off. This seemed to allow the shoe to settle deeper than normal.

On this same projector I've had problems finding the correct setting for the screw which adjusts how deep the gate closes. Looking closer at what happens when the gate is closed, I noticed this screw was set too far in and this was causing the spacer block be pushed forward more than it should be - probably what caused the tab to break off.

I replaced the spacer block and adjusted the set screw so the shoe just barely rests on the intermittent sprocket when the gate is closed - prior to this, the gate had room to close when the shoe was resting on the sprocket.

I was looking more closely for the cause tonight because I've had a print get scratched after months of no scratches.

I'm inclined to think the problem rests more with the setting for the gate closing than the broken spacer block - meaning if the gate setting had been correct, the broken spacer block may not have been an issue.

I'm still baffled as to why the scratches seemed to be linked to which deck of the platter was used.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-02-2010, 03:03 AM:
 
Oh the platter issue side of this spectrum: I had a bad brain on one of my AW3's that was causing the basic same scratch - base side - of the print.

It turned out that the roller holes were worn out since they are not bearing loaded with the rollers not turning smooth and causing the film to buckle a bit inbetween the pinch roller and the center roller.

Oh, what failsafes do you have?
Do you have FP-350's per chance?
For the rollers, if the older ones that are solid plastic are not turning too good, or has froze up, on those failsafes could be worn to smooth and you can get some nasty line scratches ...
 

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