This is topic Flourescent dimmer in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-08-2009, 03:19 PM:
 
Anyone have recommendations for a dimmer capable of handling dimmable flourescent fixtures?
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 07-08-2009, 03:33 PM:
 
One thing I found to help stop dimmable fluorescents from flickering at low light levels is to parallel 60-100 watt incancandesent lamps in the circuit.
 

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Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 07-08-2009, 03:37 PM:
 
I've seen excellent results from Lutron dimmers in the corporate office world.

Lutron Dimmers & Dimmer Ballasts
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-08-2009, 04:19 PM:
 
Also since I didn't mention this, the dimmer must be capable of handling momentary closure commands, so the Lutron stuff is out. It would also be nice if it was multiple channels.
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-08-2009, 07:22 PM:
 
I have certainly seen it tried, most recently on a cinema "with good results guaranteed."

Bah, humbug! Going downward all is OK until near the end when all channels cut off at once (due to the relay dropping power.)

Going up, enough flicker to trigger epileptic seizures until all is lit then OK to full.

Bulbs must be aged to get close on ignition. Louis
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-08-2009, 07:39 PM:
 
Our good ol Stanley-Ash 8412's Theatrical Decorator dimmers does a wonderful job of dimming down our flourscent house lights.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-08-2009, 09:27 PM:
 
If this is for a large job it would very definately pay to consult with a real lighting designer or call Strand Lighting or Colortran and look into what they have. This is an easy place to get caught in the ringer! Most Imax theaters use a Strand Half rack and you could easily use a half or full rack to control an entire multiplex inside and out! I've installed and programmed alot of big expensive architectural lighting systems in the last ten years and they rarely work as advertised with the florescents although they have gotten better. Ok down to a certain level and then they have to be set to cut off right away(about 10% to 20% level) or they will flicker. You are also stuck using very specific lamps and ballasts in the fixtures. Doesn't necessarily save any operating costs and they are typically used just because of the soft light they produce. I know Heir Guttag absolutely loves flourescents
Mark
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-09-2009, 07:35 AM:
 
The Ash 8112 is available to fire dimmable ballasts but it is a different fireing circuit
The regular dimmer will dim the dimmable CFL lamps andwe have been using the ones from ULighting America
SCR or TRIAC dimmers will not dim the "dimmableCold Cathode" lamps from USHIO
 

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Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 07-09-2009, 11:19 AM:
 
Actually Brad Lutron has a complete range of multichannel wall dimmers including contact closure inputs to triger scenes. Check out their Grafik QS series of dimmers. The only thing is that you need an interface like a GRX-TVI to dim the 0-10 ballast of the FL.
Demetris
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-09-2009, 12:46 PM:
 
Lehigh has offered florescent dimmers...I still recall as the lamps hit their turning off point...things get a bit shaky...it is just the nature of the lamp.

Steve
 

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Posted by Oscar Neundorfer (Member # 458) on 07-09-2009, 09:02 PM:
 
Dimmable fluorescent ballasts (such as Advance Mark 10, Ambistar, and Lutron Tu-Wire) usually have a low end voltage minimum of around 55 to 60 volts for minimum brightness and guaranteed startup. I am currently working on a line of fluorescent dimmers for residential wallbox use (not really suitable for your purposes, Brad), and I have done a good bit of research into dimmable fluorescents. Most typical dimmers go far below 60 VAC, so you will get bad results, like flickering, as you get below a certain level. Dimmers for fluorescent use are designed with a bottom end voltage limit around 60 VAC give or take, depending on the ballasts for which they are designed.

Triac based dimmers usually work fine with these ballasts, and there are ballasts available for tubular lamps as well as 4 pin CFLs (NOT the screw in CFLs).

The big dimmable ballast makers are Advance Transformer and Lutron. I am not certain, but I imagine other dimmable ballasts are similar to those mentioned.
 

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Posted by Jake Spell (Member # 5294) on 07-09-2009, 09:30 PM:
 
We have lithonia sequel dimmer panels that have a main panel in the booth and satilites in the auditorium. It uses a set of dry contacts for up to 16 channels with 6 presets and an unlimited number of dimmers works well with all types of lights.
 

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Posted by Don Sneed (Member # 955) on 07-10-2009, 09:54 AM:
 
Just had this problem at an 8-screen theatre I just installed, the fluorescent lights started to dimmer ok, but as the voltage got lower the lights would flicker badly then out, When they was told to raise, the flicker again & only a lamp or two would come on, next time maybe 4-5 would come on, it you turned off the the breaker & turn back on all the lights would light, but dimming up from being dim down, not going to happen, they did dim, only to a medium glow from bright, not dim out or stay dim low. My understanding is the lights & fixure was about $250.00 each...needless to say they were replace with standard lighting that will dim...
 

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Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 07-10-2009, 10:15 AM:
 
The best way to dim fluorescents is with a dimming ballast with a 0-10V input; if you have the option to replace or specify the ballasts this will have by far the best results, and you can use the same 0-10V signal to control LED power supplies and incandescent dimmers, too.
 

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Posted by Jake Spell (Member # 5294) on 07-10-2009, 07:42 PM:
 
One of the best ways iv found to fix the flicker problem is to limit the botow range to 15-20 percent.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-10-2009, 11:39 PM:
 
One of the best ways I've found to fix the problem is don't try to dim f-lamps. They suck at it.
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-11-2009, 07:24 AM:
 
Tony: Agreed, but the "Greenies" are mandating this "change." Louis
 

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Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 07-11-2009, 07:56 AM:
 
It depends not only on the actual ballast but also on the actual fluorescent. Italian ballasts and fluorescents prove to be very good here in Cyprus. Using Lutron controls we dim them very low.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-11-2009, 08:34 AM:
 
I haven't found the greenies to be bothering with such stuff in theatrical...they are mostly targeting household lamps of typical and higher wattage.

Afterall...in theatres, the normal lamps are almost never at full brightness and often are off or barely glowing.

Steve
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-11-2009, 09:12 AM:
 
Steve: the theatre owners are being told by their architects that "normal" bulbs are not going to be allowed to be sold much longer so that the "switch" to fluorescent will be a mandate in 3-5 years. (Does any of this sound familiar???) Louis
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-11-2009, 12:21 PM:
 
Architects are also telling the theater owners that if they don't use flourescents that their electric bill will run them out of business.

Personally I am fine with it for lobby applications, but not for auditoriums. This dimmer is for various zones of lobby use.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-11-2009, 12:35 PM:
 
I thought that LED lighting was eventually coming in to take over flourscent lighting....
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-11-2009, 12:44 PM:
 
LEDs definitely have some promise as they are certainly dimmable, don't have the Mercury issue and are often less power consuming.

None of the people we service have been issued the florescent threats, that I'm aware of. In fact one just renovated and the dimming lamps...all halogen or incandescent. Like Brad...in the non-auditorium areas where the lamps are set to specific levels...there is no need for standard lamps...why pay for them and pay to keep replacing them. But in the theatre...there is no electric issue really...the cost/year is barely measurable. Most of the time, the lamps are off or barely on...the rest of the operating hours they are normally at some percentage and again not at full-on.

The only movement on legislation I've seen are on typical household lamps in the upper wattage (above 40-watts, IIRC).

Steve
 

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Posted by Jack Theakston (Member # 4484) on 07-12-2009, 10:53 AM:
 
The best tube lighting that I ever saw that could dim was not fluorescent, but GE's Lumiline, which is actually incandescent. Of course, it's expensive as anything, I'm not sure if they make the bulbs anymore and I'm sure it gets hot, too.
 

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Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 07-18-2009, 02:24 PM:
 
I haven't seen lumilines in years, but what happened to cold cathold fluorescent--that's easily dimmable.
 

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Posted by Paul Trimboli (Member # 1509) on 07-18-2009, 09:03 PM:
 
Fluros put out the most awful light, I know I would not be wanting to install them into a cinema! They are talking about a similar incandescent ban here in Australia, what stupid idea! Maybe once LED technology has matured a little more (its almost there in most domestic applications but the prices need to drop a little bit more- but they do work out cheaper over the length of the lamp) but they are saying to install CFL lamps which are worse for the environment because of the pollution involved in their manufacture and then not to mention their disposal!
 

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Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 07-18-2009, 10:28 PM:
 
The cinema chain I work for new complex features computer color programmed led lighting in all auditoriums and gray drapes.

No more light bulb changing! Cinemas can color change as part of the presentation.

This complex also feature balconies in all 8 cinemas.
 

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Posted by Rick Hunter (Member # 1606) on 07-18-2009, 11:21 PM:
 

quote: Paul Trimboli

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They are talking about a similar incandescent ban here in Australia, what stupid idea

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quote:

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Incandescent Bulbs Return to the Cutting Edge
By LEORA BROYDO VESTEL

SANTA ROSA, Calif. — When Congress passed a new energy law two years ago, obituaries were written for the incandescent light bulb. The law set tough efficiency standards, due to take effect in 2012, that no traditional incandescent bulb on the market could meet, and a century-old technology that helped create the modern world seemed to be doomed.

But as it turns out, the obituaries were premature.

Researchers across the country have been racing to breathe new life into Thomas Edison’s light bulb, a pursuit that accelerated with the new legislation. Amid that footrace, one company is already marketing limited quantities of incandescent bulbs that meet the 2012 standard, and researchers are promising a wave of innovative products in the next few years.

Indeed, the incandescent bulb is turning into a case study of the way government mandates can spur innovation.

“There’s a massive misperception that incandescents are going away quickly,” said Chris Calwell, a researcher with Ecos Consulting who studies the bulb market. “There have been more incandescent innovations in the last three years than in the last two decades.”

The first bulbs to emerge from this push, Philips Lighting’s Halogena Energy Savers, are expensive compared with older incandescents. They sell for $5 apiece and more, compared with as little as 25 cents for standard bulbs.

But they are also 30 percent more efficient than older bulbs. Philips says that a 70-watt Halogena Energy Saver gives off the same amount of light as a traditional 100-watt bulb and lasts about three times as long, eventually paying for itself.

The line, for now sold exclusively at Home Depot and on Amazon.com, is not as efficient as compact fluorescent light bulbs, which can use 75 percent less energy than old-style bulbs. But the Energy Saver line is finding favor with consumers who dislike the light from fluorescent bulbs or are bothered by such factors as their slow start-up time and mercury content.

“We’re experiencing double-digit growth and we’re continuing to expand our assortment,” said Jorge Fernandez, the executive who decides what bulbs to stock at Home Depot. “Most of the people that buy that bulb have either bought a C.F.L. and didn’t like it, or have identified an area that C.F.L.’s don’t work in.”

For lighting researchers involved in trying to save the incandescent bulb, the goal is to come up with one that matches the energy savings of fluorescent bulbs while keeping the qualities that many consumers seem to like in incandescents, like the color of the light and the ease of using them with dimmers.

“Due to the 2007 federal energy bill that phases out inefficient incandescent light bulbs beginning in 2012, we are finally seeing a race” to develop more efficient ones, said Noah Horowitz, senior scientist with the Natural Resources Defense Council.

Some of the leading work is under way at a company called Deposition Sciences here in Santa Rosa. Its technology is a key component of the new Philips bulb line.

Normally, only a small portion of the energy used by an incandescent bulb is converted into light, while the rest is emitted as heat. Deposition Sciences applies special reflective coatings to gas-filled capsules that surround the bulb’s filament. The coatings act as a sort of heat mirror that bounces heat back to the filament, where it is transformed to light.

While the first commercial product achieves only a 30 percent efficiency gain, the company says it has achieved 50 percent in the laboratory. No lighting manufacturer has agreed yet to bring the latest technology to market, but Deposition Sciences hopes to persuade one.

“We built a better mouse trap,” said Bob Gray, coating program manager at Deposition Sciences. “Now, we’re trying to get people to beat a path to our door.”

With the new efficiency standards, experts predict more companies will develop specialized reflective coatings for incandescents. The big three lighting companies — General Electric, Osram Sylvania and Philips — are all working on the technology, as is Auer Lighting of Germany and Toshiba of Japan.

And a wave of innovation appears to be coming. David Cunningham, an inventor in Los Angeles with a track record of putting lighting innovations on the market, has used more than $5 million of his own money to develop a reflective coating and fixture design that he believes could make incandescents 100 percent more efficient.

“There’s enormous interest,” Mr. Cunningham said. “All the major lighting companies want an exclusive as soon as we demonstrate feasibility.”

Both Mr. Cunningham and Deposition Sciences have been looking into the work of Chunlei Guo, an associate professor of optics at the University of Rochester, who announced in May that he had used lasers to pit the surface of a tungsten filament. “Our measurements show that the treated filament becomes twice as bright with the same power consumption,” Mr. Guo said.

And a physics professor at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Shawn-Yu Lin, is also seeing improved incandescent performance by using a high-tech, iridium-coated filament that recycles wasted heat. “The technology can get up to six to seven times more efficient,” Mr. Lin said.

Despite a decade of campaigns by the government and utilities to persuade people to switch to energy-saving compact fluorescents, incandescent bulbs still occupy an estimated 90 percent of household sockets in the United States. Aside from the aesthetic and practical objections to fluorescents, old-style incandescents have the advantage of being remarkably cheap.

But the cheapest such bulbs are likely to disappear from store shelves between 2012 and 2014, driven off the market by the government’s new standard. Compact fluorescents, which can cost as little as $1 apiece, may become the bargain option, with consumers having to spend two or three times as much to get the latest energy-efficient incandescents.

A third technology, bulbs using light-emitting diodes, promises remarkable gains in efficiency but is still expensive. Prices can exceed $100 for a single LED bulb, and results from a government testing program indicate such bulbs still have performance problems.

That suggests that LEDs — though widely used in specialized applications like electronic products and, increasingly, street lights — may not displace incumbent technologies in the home any time soon.

Given how costly the new bulbs are, big lighting companies are moving gradually. Osram will introduce a new line of incandescents in September that are 25 percent more efficient. The bulbs will feature a redesigned capsule with higher-quality gas inside and will sell for a starting price of about $3. That is less than the Philips product already on the market, but they will have shorter life spans. G.E. also plans to introduce a line of household incandescents that will comply with the new standards.

Mr. Calwell predicts “a lot more flavors” of incandescent bulbs coming out in the future. “It’s hard to be an industry leader in the crowded C.F.L field,” he said. “But a company could truly differentiate itself with a better incandescent.”

This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:

Correction: July 8, 2009
An article on Monday about energy-efficiency innovations in incandescent light bulbs misstated the name of the university with which Chunlei Guo, an associate professor of optics who is using laser technology to increase bulb efficiency, is affiliated. It is the University of Rochester, not Rochester University.

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