Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Dolby Surround EX still in use?

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Posted by Brian D. Whitish (Member # 825) on 09-04-2009, 01:47 AM:

Is Dolby surround EX still being used for theatrical releases? Its no long on their website nor is it on posters anymore. Or is it on all prints?
Brian

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 09-04-2009, 02:26 AM:

Dolby Surround EX (or in its DTS Digital Sound equivalent, DTS-ES) is still in use, though it's not favored by most mixers. The last theatrical release with an Extended Surround track was Disney/Pixar's Up, and the the next is Overture's Pandorum. We're seeing typically 2-3 Hollywood releases per year.

Posted by Scott Ribbens (Member # 180) on 09-05-2009, 12:16 AM:

" Ponyo " was/is in EX.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 09-07-2009, 03:52 AM:

Woo hoo. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 09-07-2009, 03:09 PM:

Our CP650 indicates "UP" has EX.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-07-2009, 03:50 PM:

Watch out Bill...you might give John a Heart Attack with such excitement!

SG

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 09-07-2009, 04:29 PM:

I agree with John, big f-in whoop. EX is wasted in so many theatres, either by crap acoustics or the fact that the house is so narrow that the effect is wasted due to no "room to run around."

Nice try Dolby...

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 09-07-2009, 06:43 PM:

Just the mention of a feature being released in EX makes...

ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.................... [sleep]

Seriously, I'm glad Pixar still support it, but when no other major release all summer has bothered with it it just makes me mad...especially when it turns up on DVD with an extra track. [Roll Eyes]

Dolby EX and Exhibitors...why on earth did we both bother?

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 09-07-2009, 07:12 PM:

What about the digital release?

Will that have ex encoding?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-07-2009, 09:36 PM:

Well see, there is another rub. DCinema doesn't really have the EX channel built into it schemes. Sure, they are all set up as 8-channel but the 7th and 8th channels are rather nebulous in design. In once scheme they are listed in the Todd-AO fashion of 5-behind the screen, 2 surround and a sub (5/2L in some circles). But okay, if one were to do that...how does a 5.1 theatre do that mix down? Nothing provided for there.

So lets look at Cinema processors...the CP650...if you want the DCinema version...EX comes along for the ride and you have to either wire it up for that OR pay attention to your surround levels because it will presume you have all four surround channels and will play the channels at the levels presuming all four are there.

So sound wise, DCinema is digging itself into the 5.1 model despite having the capability for 8 to 16 channels right now.

Steve

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 09-07-2009, 10:47 PM:

quote: Scott Ribbens
" Ponyo " was/is in EX.

Just to keep all the "Zzzzzzz" going, all of Studio Ghibli's films have been EX since the format came into use. [Razz]

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 03-12-2010, 05:19 AM:

Alice In Wonderland is EX.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-12-2010, 05:25 AM:

Remember when all of the top-notch theaters were running around busting their balls to install EX or equivalent? Ha ha!

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-13-2010, 04:48 AM:

We have EX with CP500's but heard that there was a needed version update with the 500's to make EX work more stable.

..we got EX shut off for the time being.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-13-2010, 02:10 PM:

DVD tried to help the Dolby•EX situation. DTS-ES one-upped it by offering a discrete 6.1 scheme. Now Blu-ray has made the entire EX thing irrelevant by offering 7.1 channel layouts, with four surround channels. And even that isn't getting used all that much by various movie releases on Blu-ray. So there's very little if any advertising value left in a format that simulates a back wall surround channel.

DTS' last couple of theatrical sound processors could do discrete 8 channel layouts. If D-Cinema was better deployed it could do the same as well. But there's no activity happening on that.

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 03-13-2010, 02:16 PM:

quote: Daniel Schulz
Dolby Surround EX (or in its DTS Digital Sound equivalent, DTS-ES) is still in use, though it's not favored by most mixers.

It'd be interesting to know why that is. Perhaps they want to avoid having to matrix encode the surround channels when they do the (discrete) 6-track mag?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-13-2010, 03:02 PM:

Discrete 6-track mag? And the last one of those mixes was?

As for the CP500 with EX...the only "required" update was to go to 1.52 or later (I think it was 1.52...it might have been 1.51). What it did was echo the front panel pushbuttons to the Automation connector so the SA-TEN would "see" which button was pushed.

There are "EX" version of the firmware for 1.61 (STAY FAR, FAR AWAY) and 1.65. The only real difference between the EX versions is that the surround channel EQs are disabled. Manually flattening them will work just as well.

So, rather than not using the EX processors on the few EX movies, just update the silly CP500! Version 1.65 (or 1.65EX) are stable and will not remove functionality from whatever version you may have. I think they are even available here on Film-Tech.

Steve

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 03-13-2010, 11:57 PM:

My understanding of the resistance on a lot of stages is essentially: "keep your analog matrix out of my discrete digital mixing room." The introduction of the matrixed rear surround channel introduces possible artifacts, with sounds the mixer intends to stay panned to the LS or RS bleeding into the rear surround.

The addition of a truly discrete 6.1 on DVD with DTS-ES only muddied the waters; while you nominally would like to create a truly 6.1 discrete mix for the home video version (if the content would be served by having a rear surround channel), you still need the analog matrix for the theatrical EX printmastering.

I'll echo what other posters have already said, that a really elegant solution would be a convergence between the Blu-Ray and Digital Cinema soundtrack layouts, using 4 discrete surrounds channels: LS, LB, RB, RS.

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 03-15-2010, 05:56 PM:

Daniel - thanks for the information.

Steve - just to clarify, I was referring to archival back-up (35mm fullcoat mag).

The argument put forward being that for any additional channels to gain lasting acceptance in the mixing field, one would like to back them up discrete to mag.

That was my impression, anyway.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-15-2010, 06:14 PM:

quote: Daniel Schulz
I'll echo what other posters have already said, that a really elegant solution would be a convergence between the Blu-Ray and Digital Cinema soundtrack layouts, using 4 discrete surrounds channels: LS, LB, RB, RS.

DTS' latest theatrical sound processors could, with certain upgrades elsewhere in the sound system, support 4 discrete channels in the surround array, 5 channels behind the screen and even bring back stereo ".2" sub bass functions.

Unfortunately a movie studio has to support such an audio layout by creating movies with such multi-channel mixes. The movie studio and at least a few movie theater companies have to work together to get the new sound format deployed. It doesn't seem like many people at all are interested in making such an effort.

Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 03-16-2010, 01:01 AM:

Honestly, how many of your customers have walked out at the end of their show and commented about how much they liked the EX? I'm sure almost none of them know the difference.

Posted by Danial Simmonds (Member # 4638) on 03-16-2010, 06:09 AM:

Well customers wont know we are playing EX unless we play the trailer before the film and put up enough planks to tell them this hall has Dolby EX...

So far i noticed Alice in Wonderland has Dolby EX. other movies currently playing here are all runing Dolby Digital.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-16-2010, 07:53 AM:

I am unaware that full-coat mag is being used as much of anything anymore by the studios. They seem content to store digitally and keep it that way.

Does anyone know, for sure, that full-coat is being used for achival storage?

Steve

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-16-2010, 08:38 AM:

I did a mag interlock screening in 2004 (admittedly, this was for an independent film), so it was being used at least as of then. The sound was a three-track temp mix with Dolby SR on all tracks.

Of course, mag is used for films that are edited on film, but very few people are still doing this now. Even then, I would assume that the sound post work is done digitally.

Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 03-16-2010, 09:28 AM:

Archives still use mag, mostly to make dubs to poly mag from 16mm mag or 35mm fullcoat that is starting to decay.

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 03-16-2010, 11:21 AM:

I'm sure that someone told me last year that studio final mixes are still being ultimately backed up onto 35mm mag for archiving purposes.

Sure, mixing nowadays is all-digital and the final mix will be stored on drives etc. as an interim measure, but my understanding was that for longterm storage, mag is still the preferred medium.

However things move so fast these days that even relatively recent information can be out of date! [Smile]

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 03-16-2010, 06:30 PM:

Long term digital archive is an interesting problem. It's been pointed out in various industry groups that it doesn't make sense for the final archive of a 48/24 or 96/24 digital mix to be analog mag. But, when you start digging into what the digital archive should be you run into issues such as: what file format? What database software? And the biggest question of all, what media? Or do you accept that all of these things will change over time, and have a department devoted to migrating the archive into the latest digital storage media every 2 years?

Staring at these problems, many organizations throw up their hands and sign off on the PO to continue outputting the printmaster to mag for the vaults for another year.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 03-16-2010, 07:22 PM:

The last Track and Picture screenings that I did was "There Will Be Blood" in 2007 (6-Track mag). The first 5 or 6 press screenings of "There Will Be Blood", in NYC were T&P shows. Deluxe NYC does not even have a mag dubber in the booth.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-16-2010, 08:04 PM:

Daniel, at least the files can be moved without any loss of quality.

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 03-17-2010, 12:29 PM:

quote: Eric Robinson
Honestly, how many of your customers have walked out at the end of their show and commented about how much they liked the EX? I'm sure almost none of them know the difference.

How many customers will notice that other fine points in your theater have been taken care of? If they don't notice that a light bulb is out in the hallway, don't replace it. If they don't notice that the popcorn was popped yesterday...

IMHO, delivering the best possible presentation is the duty of every theater. If they want their customers to appreciate what they have done, they have to tell them about it and give them the information to appreciate what has been done for them.

As a result, they will be more educated and will begin to notice and appreciate the extras, even when not told about them. Now, when they go to a theater down the road that doesn't have those extras, they'll have a good reason to come back to yours the next time.

If the studios aren't producing enough "EX" soundtracks, perhaps it's time for theaters/NATO to push for it?