Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Film Lubrication and How to Walk the Fine Line Between Over-/Underdoing It

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Posted by Karl Borowski (Member # 5424) on 09-11-2009, 12:24 AM:

Hello all, first post here.

After 3-1/2 years hiatus, I am back up in the projection room, this time for a corporate chain instead of a single-screen theatre.

Fortunately, despite the stereotype, I am in a very clean shop.

What bothers me is that there are situations where perhaps things are "too clean". Fire glass and lenses seem to be cleaned to the point that it is counter-productive, with static charge and maybe stripped rear lens coatings, but what is even more concerning to me is over-lubrication of film.

We thoroughly scrub down each projector every night with cleaner/lubricant, either with toothbrushes or cloths, but I have noticed that it almost looks as if we are over-doing it on our prints.

You'll see spots where some sort of gunk has actually congealed in spots on segments of films.

So how do you know where to walk the fine line of too much/too little lubricant on films?

Granted, most prints end up being melted down, but I was heartbroken the other day to run my prized trailer of Red October only to find that someone had left so much grease on it that it had congealed and actually almost looked as if the emulsion was partially lifted off in spots where grease had dried on and caked to the touching film base in contact with it [Frown]

Thanks for the tips folks.

P.S. Is there any difference between the treatments that should be given to acetate vs. estar while we're on this topic?

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 09-11-2009, 01:16 AM:

Err...generally speaking, nothing you use to clean the projector should ever touch the film. Filmguard is one exception (well, you don't generally clean the projector with it), and I guess lubricants for gate runners (I think most people don't bother...) might be another...but certainly nothing should build up.

What kind of lubricants are you referring to and how are they making it onto the film? What brand/model projector?

You're certainly right you have a problem.

--jhawk

Posted by Brent Francis (Member # 5008) on 09-11-2009, 08:59 AM:

Does anyone still wax their prints? I've seen prints within the last year that had either wax or really bad filmguard on the base - to the point it makes film slide around in the gate during transport.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 09-11-2009, 11:15 AM:

Brent, re-read Jhawk's post..NOTHING but Filmguard should ever be applied to prints.

Wax is not used anymore and can actually make the new Estar/mylar base quite sticky.

And Filmguard will NEVER make the film "slide around in the gate during transport" (would you elaborate on what that means anyway as a properly adjusted film gate/trap won't allow the film to "slide around" anyways.)

Odds are the prints you've encountered are slicked up with projector oil, CPI's crappy knockoff of Filmguard (do a search on this forum for lots of info on that)or some other substance.

Have all the prints you've had trouble with come from the same location before it got to you? (Other theatre chain or other theatre in your own chain, etc. )

Karl:

With any other lubricant but Filmguard, yes it is possible to over-apply it to the film. Like Jhawk said it sounds like there's something other than film lubricant getting on your prints..or someone is using the CPI knockoff of Filmguard. As I said to Brent, do a search on that topic.

Filmguard, with the tests that Brad has done (see the Products section of the site) WILL NOT damage film even if the film has been literally soaking in it. My own tests have proven that to be true.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-11-2009, 11:22 AM:

Tony said "Wax is not used anymore"
Incorrect almost all film labs edge wax release prints as it comes out of the drying cabinet

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-11-2009, 11:33 AM:

I thought that film wax was only for B&W prints. No? Yes? Maybe?

Posted by Brent Francis (Member # 5008) on 09-11-2009, 11:52 AM:

And the wax can get well past the edges of the print. The print I received came from B.C. I suspect the perfs were stretched as well, which would cause movement. I screened several different films that day on the same projector & only that one moved.

Posted by Karl Borowski (Member # 5424) on 09-11-2009, 12:29 PM:

I am using Strong projectors. Sorry, don't know the model number by heart. They were "new" (refurbished) in 2007, so I assume they are Strong's latest model for 35mm.

We don't wax or lubricate film per se. I am concerned that our projector cleaner/lubricant that we apply with toothbrushes or rags at the end of the night might be building up on prints because we use too much.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 09-11-2009, 12:36 PM:

Could the people who want to talk about laboratory edgewaxing and BW prints use another thread?

Again, what "cleaner/lubricant" are you using? There are very limited places where the film should be able to come into contact with the projector.

Presumably you aren't lubricating the sprockets or pad rollers themselves. Are you applying this mystery chemical to the gate/trap? How is it getting on your film?

Is oil dripping into the film path?

Pretty much all petroleum products are bad for film, they will leech the dyes and other bad things.

--jhawk

Posted by Karl Borowski (Member # 5424) on 09-11-2009, 12:48 PM:

Sorry, don't remember the brand OTOH, just a clear lubricant/cleaner in a 16 floz bottle.

From time to time we'll use WD-40 as a film lubricant as well, but I am not the one involved in this area.

We clean the gate, pressure plate, and all rollers with it every night, so it can come in contact with the film on the rollers, in the gate area, the capstan, and really anywhere else through the film path on the projector.

Isn't a nightly cleaning of a high run-through projector standard procedure?

There definitely is buildup of brown gunk that comes off with the cleaning, but I always have the tendency to over-apply vs. under-apply. With no real recommendations as to how much lube/cleaner to put on a rag/toothbrush, I am worried that the first roller in particular is getting covered in this stuff.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 09-11-2009, 12:59 PM:

You need to find out exactly what it is. But it's highly likely that using almost any lubricant as you have specified is extremely bad practice.

WD40 should never come into contact with film. It absolutely will leech dyes from the film and damage it. It is also not a very good general-purpose mechanical lubricant, because it is sufficiently volatile that it evaporates and doesn't leave much behind to lubricate.

You absolutely should not clean the gate, the pressure plate (or rails), the pad rollers, or the sprockets, with any kind of petroleum product. That is absolutely a problem.

You should clean with a mild solvent. Opinions vary. We're quite happy with 99% isopropyl alcohol (isopropanol). Some swear by FilmGuard. Others like VM&P naptha. Still others are rich enough to use 1,1,1-trichloroethane (formerly sold under trade names like Renovex). But all have one thing in common: they are chemicals approved for contact with film.

(Additionally, because they are solvents, they tend to evaporate and leave minimal residue behind; that is desirable in this application. You don't want to apply something that will come into contact with the film.)

Yes, frequently cleaning is standard procedure. But not with lubricants (special exception: lubricants designed for use with film, like FilmGuard).

Some clean nightly, some clean after each show, some with other frequencies. It really depends on how dirty your projectors get, which depends on a lot of factors. Probably the biggest one is the use of FilmGuard...

All lubricants function somewhat as solvents, so it is not surprising that crap comes off when you use a lubricant. But the other properties of most lubricants are absolutely killers in this kind of application.

--jhawk

Posted by Karl Borowski (Member # 5424) on 09-11-2009, 01:09 PM:

Can't find it looking online anywhere. Like I said, though, it's a clear lubricating liquid in a 16 floz bottle, with a spray top, tall, cylindrical. Comes with a paired green-liquid lens cleaner.

Any ideas anyone as to the brand?

I can. . . almost. . .see the label in my head.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-11-2009, 02:32 PM:

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr
And Filmguard will NEVER make the film "slide around in the gate during transport"

Yes it can. It's not unusual to need to tighten the bands for the first show or two when applying Filmguard while running Simplex projectors. Otherwise it can hop up and down in the gate.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 09-12-2009, 12:12 AM:

Gordon: Then my contact here in LA is wrong, he told me waxing doesn't happen anymore. [Smile]

I however stand corrected.

Joe, I have, so far, in both my Kinotons and in the several Simplex XL's I service and use Filmguard with, NEVER had to re-adjust the tension. The only effect of Filmguard use I've noted is quieter running, never had jump issues. Sounds like the machines you've run into are not set up correctly.

I can say that setting the proper tension on Simplexes (especially with the curved gates) takes a lot of patience and testing. I have been able to successfully get CURVED GATE XL's to run film in reverse without munching the film, (for short lengths of course) and have always been able to get "studio gate" XL's to reverse (pretty much as much as you want) without Wrong's expensive gate release.

Karl:

To reemphasise: WD40 is not to EVER be used on film!! It WILL cause permanent damage!! In fact, WD40 has NO safe use anywhere in a projection room on ANY projection equipment! WD40 is NOT a lube in any event, is was formulated to displace moisture ONLY. (The WD stands for Water Displacement.)

Sounds like your other product is CPI, again do a search on this site to find out just how bad Ron Purtee and CPI has screwed up this industry.

PLEASE do yourself and anyone who may get prints after your theatre runs them a big favor and invest the modest cost of a bottle of Filmguard and cleaning media. If you need a media cleaner you can find them here in the Equipment For Sale forum.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 09-12-2009, 09:39 AM:

quote: Karl Borowski
From time to time we'll use WD-40 as a film lubricant as well, but I am not the one involved in this area.

JEEZE! Who ARE these people?!! A lot of these practices you describe sound exactly like what the old Mid-States Theatres (based in Cincy) used to do. I'll bet someone down the line at your place was an ex-Mid-States.

Bernie Thompson lives from beyond the grave! [Eek!]

FWIW, the brown stuff you're getting from the machines is likely BECAUSE of all the crap they're pouring onto them.

Don't use anything but iso-alcohol to clean machines with. It gets rid of all the grease, oil, and junk. A dry wiping of the film path with a lintless cloth everytime you thread will do wonders, and will likely be all you'll ever need to do... AFTER all the lubricant and crap applications cease. Since this has been such a long-standing practice there, it may be better to start this regimen when you put a new print on, so one doesn't contaminate the other, so to speak.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-12-2009, 01:04 PM:

Next thing you know you'll hear about people cleaning the projectors themselves with WD-40 and a lighter.

Posted by Jonathan Althaus (Member # 5042) on 09-12-2009, 01:19 PM:

A slight amount of gasoline works better than WD-40. You get more of a flash bang, cleans it quicker.

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 09-12-2009, 02:38 PM:

I love the smell of WD-40 in the morning! That smell,that WD-Smell,the whole booth! Smells like victory! [Big Grin]

Not!

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-12-2009, 04:35 PM:

I thought all modern film was pre-lubricated at the lab and it was supposed to last, pretty much, for the life of the print. (Most prints do not have a very long life anymore.)

Except for FilmGuard, the only time I ever lubricate a print is in an emergency situation where the film won't run unless something is done.

A) That is a very rare situation.

B) When I lube film it is almost always with FilmGuard.

C) Since I almost always use FilmGuard, I never even have to worry about lubing the film in the first place.

And, since I almost never go out of my way to lube film, my projector stays cleaner in the first place. Literally, all I ever do is use a clean rag to wipe out the projector head and use a paint brush to get the dust out of the nooks and crannies.

Again, since I'm using FilmGuard, cleaning projectors is not so much of an issue anymore, either.

Answer: Stop lubing film unless it is absolutely necessary to get the film to run. Start using FilmGuard.

1) Film should already be lubed at the lab.
2) FilmGuard will prevent you from needing to lube film, virtually in all situations except for freak occurrences.
3) FilmGuard will make cleaning your projectors a breeze unless you run into that freak occurrence that makes it necessary. (Like scuffed emulsion.)

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 09-12-2009, 04:45 PM:

I started a new thread for the Edge waxing discussion, can we please keep it there? Thanks.

--jhawk

Posted by Karl Borowski (Member # 5424) on 09-15-2009, 10:00 AM:

Just as an update, it's BSI lubricant and cleaner, a one U.S. pint bottle, from Hollywood Alabama I think the city was. . .