Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: super noisy westar intermittent!

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Posted by Gavin Lewarne (Member # 5397) on 09-16-2009, 12:49 PM:

Hi all,

One of my Westar 2001's has developed a horrendous intermittent noice. really really loud CLACK CLACK CLACK with each pull down. the other one purrs along almost silent.

On closer inspection, the end bushing on the star wheel shaft now seems to "wobble" slightly when rotating, indicating that the starwheel shaft might be slightly bent.

would this:
a) be the cause of the noise ???
b) be easily repairable ???

i do regular 400 hour oil changes on the units, and this noise has slowly built up over that last few days ever since the upper spool clutch siezed making the mnotor and gears have to work super hard to pull the film down (that problem has since been corrected)

Either that, or i have been quoted £850 for a brand new unit, which, frankly is slightly beyond the means of our establishment at the moment.

if anybody was to offer some help (or even parts?) i would be most thankful! i have a bunch of westar parts for possible swap if anybody has bits for me!

I have taken the units apart many times before to replace various things and gunk cleaning, so if it is something that can be easily fixed i am more than capable.

Thanks all
Gavin

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-16-2009, 01:00 PM:

Sorry about this, but that assembly needs rebuilding-which would be cheaper to be had instead of a total purchase..in which they are definitely spendy.

Can't have any of that wobble-things have got to be tight..

quote:
and this noise has slowly built up over that last few days ever since the upper spool clutch siezed making the motor and gears have to work super hard to pull the film down (that problem has since been corrected)

Quite surprised that it didn't start raising havoc with the back side gearing since you got a fibre gear driving that assembly which is being driven by a metal gear. But, what has happened with all of that hard downpull is that the pin on the cam has worn the star out along with putting stress on those bronze bushings and wore them down to give that wobble look on the sprocket shaft.

Thus, if you got an arbor press to press out and in bushings, you got that one step ahead of you and you have to lap those new bushings to fit with the new parts. but new inner parts are in order.

-Monte

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-16-2009, 01:16 PM:

I've replaced several intermittents over the years. (Mostly because the kids didn't keep oil in them the way they should.)

Every once in a while you get one that decides to die on you like the way you describe. Replace it now, while you can. If it seizes up on you mid-show, you will have a mess. Better to spend money now than to lose income when it fails.

I don't know that we ever bought a new intermittent to replace a failed one. It's always been done on repair/exchange basis.
We order the part(s). The company bills us "Net-30." We do the repairs and send the old part(s) back. Their people inspect the returned goods and calculate the cost of rebuilding them. Our account is then adjusted to reflect the cost of the rebuild instead of the price of a new part.

The only time things would be different is if the old parts were damaged beyond repair or if they weren't sent back before the 30 day invoice period was up.

Depending on what was wrong, we usually never paid over half the price of new parts.

At least, that's what the accounting people used to tell me.

Posted by Randy Bowden (Member # 587) on 09-16-2009, 01:30 PM:

It's likely that damage has been done to the intermittent, based on what you said about that part seizing up. I would say that you probably need to have the intermittent rebuilt. There is the slight chance that the intermittent flywheel is loose, or the screw that holds it on has snapped off. That can also cause the machine to run horribly loud.

Posted by Gavin Lewarne (Member # 5397) on 09-16-2009, 01:56 PM:

i have checked the flywheel and screw, all OK there!

yep im definatly lucky none of the fibre gears got stripped when the clutch siezed, if that had happened we would have probably scrapped the machine.

I have had the thing apart now, and looking at the innards:

-starwheel shaft is definatly bent (only a little)
-inner starwheel shaft bronze bearing liner has a crack in it

suprisingly the cam and pin dont look too bad. the pin is a little "rounded" but nothing too severe. looks like we just need the front end replacing. also checked the cam thrust bearing, OK there too.

i thoroughly cleaned it, have decided what the heck, its almost dead anyway, and i have put some very thick grease on all the bearing liners and put in some gearbox oil from my car (70w/80) so its lubed with some really thick stuff. and it actually ran a bit quieter for 20 mins worth of scrap! ha ha fun times. i wonder how long that would last though? dont worry, i wont be using a "live" print on the machine. its my experiment now until the replacement turns up.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 09-16-2009, 02:24 PM:

Gavin, if that price was from our place then it is a rebuilt exchange unit. A new one, which would be a Strong Century unit now, is more like double that sum!

Strange that the shaft got suddenly bent like that. Obviously with it getting steadily worse since your pay off shaft issues it's had something to do with that.

There's never any need to scrap a Westar mech due to gear damage, there's nothing in there that we can't replace and susprisingly cheaply too. Just don't stick any Monee bits in it!

Posted by Gavin Lewarne (Member # 5397) on 09-16-2009, 02:27 PM:

pete: would it be lazy / stupid of me to ask what company you work for?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-16-2009, 02:34 PM:

Randy is correct... always check to be sure the flywheel is tight before pulling the movement for rebuild. A loose flywheel can cause exactly that sort of noise. I just finished a Westrex Intermittent rebuild a little while ago... it's purring away in the run in block as I type this. The complete kit lists for $920.00 USD.

Mark

Posted by Gavin Lewarne (Member # 5397) on 09-16-2009, 02:40 PM:

Mark:

the complete kit you list for $920, where is that available from? prices over here are much more than that! to use, thats almost a third off what we are about to pay!!!

to clarify prices i have been quoted:

complete assembled unit: £1250 brand new "strong / century" manufacture
brand new unit in pieces (missing drive gear - no problem - mine OK): £850

nobodyu i have spoken too can offer a rebuild service.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-16-2009, 05:52 PM:

one other issue is the century movement is an SA and it may not allow as much framing adjustment in the older C style castings which westrex copied in some cases

Posted by Neil Robinson (Member # 2459) on 09-16-2009, 06:57 PM:

Gavin, having worked on Westars for many years we sometimes had problems with the Intermittent units but did have a spare while the other was away being repaired, there is a company in Stockport called Omnex who do a first class repair on these units.

Posted by Bob Koch (Member # 1062) on 09-16-2009, 08:46 PM:

A sterwheel shaft bent "just a little" is enough to cause havoc. Sound like someone got something caught in there or a missing stripper and a film "wrap up", but more than likely someone pushed the toothbrush a "little too far".

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 09-16-2009, 08:59 PM:

Try Bell Theatre Service, London. I am almost certain they stock all the parts you need and also do repair. Louis

Posted by Gavin Lewarne (Member # 5397) on 09-17-2009, 07:48 AM:

thanks for all the assistance so far. we will be having a finance meeting tomorrow so the decision will be made then as to what to do. Pete, thanks for your message, it will certainly be considered once i know how much we have to spend.

for anyone interested, my collegue just called me to say that the intermittent just ran my 50 minutes scrap trailer spool just fine with the thick oil in it!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-17-2009, 08:45 AM:

If you run it long enough with the thick oil in it you may seize it up!! Possibly resulting in damage to the gear train... then you'll be having a lot more than just a finance meeting...

Mark

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 09-17-2009, 08:57 AM:

Thanks Gordon, I knew there was an issue putting a Century box in a Westar, just couldn't remember what it was!

Gavin, we may even be able to loan you a box whilst yours is overhauled, you'd have to check with the office on that. Customers sometimes have this annoying habit of assuming that a loan assembly is for life!

Posted by Gavin Lewarne (Member # 5397) on 09-17-2009, 09:09 AM:

pete: thanks, will look into it firther when a finance decision is made

mark: i told him not to do it again. i was running it on a direct motor assembly, not in the machine. when i got in, i opened it up, and sure enough, the thick oil gets distributed just as well as the proper stuff inside. in fact, it seems to stick to the thrust bearing a little better! and it was all over the bearing sleeves.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-17-2009, 09:13 AM:

Te thicker oil will cause more drag on the rest of the drive train of the projector
Most likely if the star shaft is bent the outboard bushing will have to be bored out and replaced as well as the inboard