Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Quickest way to fix a tails up reel on a platter?

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Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 11-01-2009, 08:43 PM:

Last night I was helping a friend breaking down some prints at a theater, and at the same time there was an Indian movie playing in one of the auditoriums on a platter system. Reel 6 (the next to the last reel) was built up tails up and projected upside down on the screen. The guy supervising the show wasn't in the booth, so I tried to figure out ways to fix the problem. I tried to tear down the print onto a 6K reel, so that I could get reel 6 reoriented on the rewind table and then build it back up onto the platter. That didn't work because the film almost flew off the platter because of the tension from the MUT. We then decided just to pull out the remaining footage of reel 7 and just projected reel 7. The promoter was ok with this as he didn't want to keep the audience waiting that long. Has this happened to anyone before and how did you fix it?

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 11-01-2009, 09:29 PM:

Basically you're trying to break down a print without a center ring/hub right? I've done this, but as you found out if you start to go too fast the remaining film begins to shift and get all distorted.

What I usually do it is to let a little bit of a reverse wrap get started around the outside perimeter of the print as you break it down (basically get the platter spinning slightly faster than the MUT is taking it off the platter). Using one hand (let the edges of the film glide through your thumb and forefinger) to keep the film from dragging face down as it comes off the platter (usually my left and the other (right) spinning the platter slightly faster as to have almost zero tension on the film to keep it from being pulled off the platter. This is being done with the MUT set at a speed you can keep up with. You may also want to have another person there to control the speed if you begin to get tired and need to stop suddenly.

Hope all that made some sense. If I had a video camera I'd make a short video for ya.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 11-01-2009, 10:43 PM:

I've had several occasions where I've had to break down without a centering ring in place. The first thing to do is put a ring on the platter so the print doesn't get thrown. If you're more than 1-2 reels into the movie, use the over-sized ring if you have one.

At this point I'll use the suction cup brackets we have and place them around the inside of the film. You can also use film cores that you tape to the platter.

When it comes to actually winding off the print, you are pretty much going to have to spin the platter by hand and keep the speed on the MUT down. If you get any kind of pull on the print it's going to get pulled off center and compound the problem.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 11-01-2009, 11:24 PM:

Not sure either of you guys read the topic which is...

Quickest way to fix a tails up reel on a platter?

Separate the reel from the rest of the print so you have a large 20 minute(ish) section. Flip it inside out so the outside film becomes the inside film. Re-attach it to the print. Go.

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 11-01-2009, 11:50 PM:

Never thought of that. Learn something new every day. [thumbsup]

Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 11-01-2009, 11:59 PM:

I have a great technique... when i'm assembling the print, i pay attention. [Big Grin]

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 11-02-2009, 12:15 AM:

John, I never thought of that. I'll have to keep it in mind should I ever encounter the problem.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-02-2009, 01:59 AM:

The proper way is to let the film run all the way through the projector, then break down the last reels until you get to the offending reel. This way you don't cause any damage to the print (which doesn't help you when the print isn't pre-screened though).

Also rather than break a print down without a center ring, it is smarter to "speed wind" it through the brain. This way you only need to stand beside the platter to adjust the MUT's speed control to make sure you aren't pulling it through the brain faster than the platter can feed it.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-02-2009, 02:53 AM:

quote: John Wilson
Flip it inside out so the outside film becomes the inside film. Re-attach it to the print. Go.

Course, when you do the inside out trick, wouldn't the wind be a bit contorted due to the curve of the film itself? In any form. just have to be careful on this trick..

-monte

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-02-2009, 04:18 AM:

I had this happen once, and ONLY once on Star Trek Generations. I caught it when I screened the movie. I let the reel run through, wound it back down onto a 2K reel, rewound it, loaded it up to the take-up deck, reattached incoming reel, the end.

Posted by Scott D. Neff (Member # 185) on 11-02-2009, 11:00 AM:

I had this happen a couple of times during employee screenings back in the day. During particularly popular or long ones that didn't start until the wee hours I would flip the film inside out otherwise I would speed it through the platter, tear it down, rewind and then rebuild it.

I think though if you do turn the film inside out that the feed starts coming from the opposite direction and the platter won't spin right. I could be mistaken but I do remember there being an actual technical problem with flipping the film.

But it's been years... *sigh*

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-02-2009, 11:15 AM:

Maybe it's because it's Monday morning and I'm not awake yet, but what do you guys mean "flip the film?" If it's on the platter, seems like if you flip it over, the only thing you'd have would be the soundtrack down instead of up, and the wind would be backwards...but the tail would still be on the outside. So how does "flipping the film" solve the tails-up problem?

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 11-02-2009, 11:39 AM:

It's got to be a sick joke. There's no way you can take the inside diameter of the wind and convince it to be larger, merely by flipping it.

More likely, the first time you try it and find your booth full of spaghetti, you'll come back here with warm fuzzy thoughts and kind words... mainly because you've just turned a 10 minute fix into a 2-hour cluster.

[Roll Eyes]

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 11-02-2009, 11:53 AM:

Cut the film. Wind the end of the film up onto the takeup deck.

Speed wind the print through the brain till you get to the end of the reel. Take the reel from the MUT and wind it onto a trailer reel. Yes, it will be larger than the trailer reel can hold but just be careful. If you can handle prints on cores, this shouldn't be a problem for you.

Break down the rest of the reel from the takeup deck onto another reel. Splice it onto the film on the trailer reel and wind it up. If you have some threading leader handy, add an appropriate amount to the reel to help you thread up.

Treat this trailer reel full of film just like you would any other trailer pack. Drop it in, splice the film together in the appropriate places, thread it up and you should be ready to go.

(Don't forget to remove your threading leader if you used any!)

Had to do this a couple of times. It takes about 15 minutes if you are careful.

Posted by Phil Ranucci (Member # 3820) on 11-02-2009, 11:55 AM:

Separate the tails out reel from the rest of the movie. Pick up the tails out section. You flip the backwards section inside out so the head is in the center and the tail is on the outside.Drop it on the platter and start back up.

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 11-02-2009, 12:02 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
Maybe it's because it's Monday morning and I'm not awake yet, but what do you guys mean "flip the film?"

You have to turn it inside-out. I tried this last night on a smaller scale with some trailers. You do have to be careful though, since the outer diameter is now inside and will now bulge inward. Not that big a deal as long as you have enough space around the brain.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 11-02-2009, 12:05 PM:

You flip the roll of film insode out... This may cause the film to pull the wrong way on the feed plate actuator arm in this case you just flip it over (sound track down if normally run up)run it through and stop it after the reel goes through and run the rest of the print like normal.

Ive done this with trailer packs where all the trailers come tails out and the rewind bench was out of service waiting on a new motor. You wind tails first onto the platter ring and build from the end first ie; last trailer first, first trailer last. When you are done you remove the center ring pick up the trailer pack in two hands and flip it inside out. When you put it back on the platter make sure the film will be orientated correctly to actuate the feed plate arm and either run through the projector or speed wind back onto another center ring and continue building your print as normal.

If you have to break down a print without a center ring and cannot speed wind or run it through the projector you can always pop in a feed plate thread the film through it and then onto the MUT. You cannot go too fast as you need to keep the speed at a level where the platter and feed plate can keep up but this was you can wind your print onto reels without damaging it. Granted all the reels will be tails out.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 11-02-2009, 01:58 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
Maybe it's because it's Monday morning and I'm not awake yet, but what do you guys mean "flip the film?" If it's on the platter, seems like if you flip it over, the only thing you'd have would be the soundtrack down instead of up, and the wind would be backwards...but the tail would still be on the outside. So how does "flipping the film" solve the tails-up problem?

Mike, not just a flip over...inside becomes out and outside becomes in. Make sure you have a good grip on at least one section of film to avoid the possible spaghetti factor.

quote: Jack Ondracek
It's got to be a sick joke. There's no way you can take the inside diameter of the wind and convince it to be larger, merely by flipping it.

No Jack, it's not a joke and yes, you do have to be very careful but we're talking a situation where if you don't do it you lose the session.

It works...it looks messy but it does work just fine.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-02-2009, 06:50 PM:

OK, now I get it....I think I'd never want to try it though! Luckily, I've never put a reel on tails-up (yet).

Maybe I'll wind 20 minutes of old trailers onto the end of a movie and give this a try for fun sometime.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 11-03-2009, 04:31 PM:

Similar to the flipping method, I've seen where someone would do a speed-wind then tear down that reel onto one of those trailer-type reels that have an unlocking hub. So now the reel has the head on the inside of the hub and the latch would be undone then the reel drops back in place in the right order.