Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Kinoton FP20 flutter at picture start

This is topic Kinoton FP20 flutter at picture start in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Jeff Else (Member # 4063) on 11-22-2009, 05:23 PM:

one of my FP20's sound drums is not coming up to speed within 7 seconds so that there is an audible flutter (i think its flutter) for about 3 or four seconds once on screen. what can i do? right now the flywheel is running with 4 discs..

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 11-22-2009, 05:34 PM:

Move flywheel by hand to start spinning and than move ear close to it, if you hear any strange sound ball bearings must be changed, also check is something got spliced on sound drum, maybe a piece of tape from splice or so...how old is that FP20 and when last time ball bearing were exchanged?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-22-2009, 06:53 PM:

check the tension on the pinch roller

Posted by Jeff Else (Member # 4063) on 11-27-2009, 03:00 PM:

drum is clean. the bearings do make some noise although nothing too bad. tension on the pinch roller seems sufficient. right now, the pinch roller touches the drum and spins with it when no film is present. is that correct or should it be set to only make contact through film?

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 11-27-2009, 03:11 PM:

How old is this FP20? Is it a Phillips or a Kinoton?

With regard to the lay on roller and it's bearings; does it have tyres on the outer lands of the lay on roller? If so what colour? When did the lay on roller bearings last see a drop or two of Cardan oil?

Posted by Jeff Else (Member # 4063) on 11-27-2009, 04:27 PM:

Its a Kinoton, from about 1975. the lay on roller is all metal, no tires. its probably been some time since its bearings have seen any oil, although it does move freely.

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 11-27-2009, 04:45 PM:

The bearings can be problem....did have one situation, small portable russian KN-13, a friend gave it to me, he used it for some school shows and so, I di get led on reader and new cell, did drill and lathe alot to adopt it with new slit lenses, so I did say le't change two bearings inside, I went to local shop, they did have only FAG, take old out, put new in....and than flutter, and it was damn big, and on whole movie, no mather you did it was same....I did think a bit and put old bearing inside, everything was great again.....if you replace, use SKF, they are okay and have zero problems with it! Because if pressure roller fit's nicely and it speans good (put oil also and clean it before) bearings can be point....

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 11-28-2009, 12:56 AM:

Another possibility to check is to make sure there is no end play in that sound drum shaft...I found this out when I had changed my FP-20 optics to BACP reverse scan and didn't fully seat the flywheel assembly on one machine.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 12-03-2009, 01:24 PM:

Hey Jeff, did you find the problem?

Posted by Jeff Else (Member # 4063) on 01-16-2010, 05:17 PM:

not yet. i lubed the pinch roller, thats moving fine. there is no end play in the sound drum... it spins freely and (pretty) smoothly... how much tension should there be on the pinch roller? any other ideas?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-16-2010, 08:12 PM:

With just 4 discs, you should be making speed in time.

I would pull the discs, lift the pinch roller and verify a very smooth and free spinning drum. The bearings are open and if they have not been lubed in awhile, I'd definitely lube them...preferably with a synthetic oil like LaVezzi (you don't want it too thick but you don't want it running out either).

Next, make sure the collar is not squeezing against the bearing too tight. You don't want any play in the shaft but you also don't want any extra force either or you will bind the bearings.

Then, put the weights back on and start tensioning the roller. Ideally, get a loop of solid tone, like 1KHz though Dolby-Tone will work...just train yourself about the warble and not confuse it with flutter. Each time, start the projector from a dead stop with the drum stopped too. And time how fast the tone becomes solid...increase the tension 1/8-turn at a time until it is up to speed within 7-seconds.

The FP20 and like soundheads have a very small drum...mechanically, the film is not at a good advantage. One huge benefit of the current RSSD is that the drum is larger, allowing the film to get a better mechanical wrap to get it up to speed.

Steve

Posted by Jeff Else (Member # 4063) on 01-17-2010, 05:45 PM:

at the risk of sounding ignorant, how/where do i lube the bearings? do i have to remove the collar at the back and slide the drum out?

p.s. would love to have the kinoton RSSD upgrade but unfortunately its out of the budget. however, we've got BACP red light and SR so i'm pretty happy.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-17-2010, 10:03 PM:

You have red light but the same small drum.

To lube the bearings you do indeed need to remove the collar the weights screw into and slide the drum shaft out. You will need to be able to do an A-chain afterwards since you will likely need to slide something out of the way to allow the drum to slide out.

Steve