Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: EX Format Dying breed

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Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 11-29-2009, 05:56 PM:

Are there ANY movies being encoded in EX today in cinema? EX is greatly used in home theaters. We've been the first to install EX throughout Greece and Cyprus for the Phantom Menace release and today almost no movie is EX encoded. There isn't even a list of EX encoded films anymore.
Demetris

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 11-29-2009, 06:11 PM:

'UP' was the only film we played in EX this year.

[Roll Eyes]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-29-2009, 07:21 PM:

Almost all the Bollywood films are ex encoded

Posted by Robert John Jeromson (Member # 2559) on 12-01-2009, 01:01 AM:

Ponyo (English Dubbed Version) was also...

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 12-01-2009, 12:43 PM:

All of Studio Ghibli's films have been EX once the format became available, just not in the US.

Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 12-03-2009, 11:45 PM:

What a waste of time, money, and effort for an effect that possibly 1% of the audience might discern.

Really, unless the EX effect is really exaggerated do you think any of the main stream simpletons would have any clue that they are being treated to an EX production.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-04-2009, 11:44 AM:

Yes and no...The EX format also helps with "steering" the surround sound.

I'm actually using an EX decoder in a long-narrow screening room, regardless of EX encoding just to steer the audio towards the rear...it works rather well.

Personally, I think that it should have be a 4-channel surround so that the surround information could be pulled back and into a corner rather than just sides and rear....again with steering the surrounds, 4 channels would have been better. To add insult to injury, you have to wire for 4-channel surrounds anyway. Most EX decoders, however, only give you 3-channels of EQ...which means the EQ is wrong for either 5.1 or EX on the side surrounds.

Steve

Posted by Jonathan M. Crist (Member # 413) on 12-04-2009, 04:56 PM:

EX is just the latest in a long list of theatre equipment sold to the exhibitor only to have the studios stop supporting the format - with the equipment ending up gathering dust in the back room. 70MM anyone? A cautionary tale for those who seek to push digital 3D.

Of course it certainly makes the equipment dealers happy when the new gimmicks appear since it gives a boost to their sales.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-04-2009, 06:06 PM:

Really? You are going to poke at 70mm? It was in pretty decent use from 1954 until about 1993...40-years on a technology is phenomenal. It still isn't obsoleted today but I stop it at 1993 as that is when the studios stopped doing the big releases in it as a rule.

Digital audio on film in cinemas, if you believe the "film is dead" folks, will have a shorter life than either 4-track mag on 35mm or 70mm.

How many things in life really stay popular or supported 10-20 or 30 years after introduction? There certainly are a few but most technology doesn't enjoy such a long life.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-04-2009, 06:48 PM:

quote: Jonathan M. Crist
Of course it certainly makes the equipment dealers happy when the new gimmicks appear since it gives a boost to their sales.

The whole time I've been in this buisness.... 32 years... I have never pushed any of the "Gimmiks" unless the customer insisted on having it. There were already expensive doorstops in place from previous eras in this biz when I started out!!!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-04-2009, 08:26 PM:

While it is true that there are times when the new technology boosts sales...EX was one of those. I, personally, don't know of any dealer that pushed for it though. All of the exhibitors told US they HAD to have it by May 19th (Star Wars Ep. 1). The exhibitors were literally begging us! And were very thankful when we told them we could get them set up in time. SA-TENs were in very short supply with both the UK and US cranking them out as fast as they could.

When I was putting it in I actually felt pretty bad about it...the SA-TEN was such an ill conceived product that every time I put one in, there was a "gotcha" in there. It played the nicest with the CP500...with the CP55/65 you had to modify the control board, the DA20 had to have resistors cut out and non-Dolby processors had their own set of "whoops". It did okay with the CP200 as well (what doesn't?).

I remember loading up an Astro van with SA-TENs, QSC amps, and wire/cable and then going from theatre to theatre putting them in/tuning...calling Dolby to find the latest kludge that needed to be done...and it all turned out to be a bit of a sham in that I later heard that the exhibitors didn't need to install it after all...they were just encouraged to. But everyone wanted to relive the 1977 boxoffice experience again.

So as a Dealer, yeah new desirable technology can often help the bottom line but you'd be hard pressed to find many dealers in this industry that are PUSHING the latest piece of crap the moment it comes out. Just the opposite...it often opens the doors to a whole list of new problems. In the case of EX...I don't recall anyone that I spoke with really touting as being great. At least with digital audio, there was a clear and immediate impact on the sound track...particularly the discrete part of it as well as the increased dynamic range over the optical track. It also got us stereo surrounds for the masses. And even with that...the headaches came...tracking issues, film coming out of readers...roll around rack systems...you name it.

Steve

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-04-2009, 08:51 PM:

I would not call any of them a gimmick
EX is still supported and used by many foreign producers
70mm is not gimmick
and as steve said cinemascope and mag has lasted longer than any other new technology

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 12-06-2009, 11:01 AM:

My big theatre no longer has EX sound. I've only had one title that used it in over 3 years.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 12-06-2009, 01:45 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
How many things in life really stay popular or supported 10-20 or 30 years after introduction? There certainly are a few but most technology doesn't enjoy such a long life.

VHS tape has lasted longer than most formats; and how long have CDs been around now, ~25 years?.

As for cinema equipment that was short-lived, how about:

Kinemacolor projectors.
Vitaphone turntables.
Tri-ergon 42mm sound system.
Fox Grandeur and other wide-film projectors from the same era.
Fantasound equipment.
Push-pull sound reproducers.
Vistavision projectors.
ARC-120 attachments.
Perspecta integrators.
Quintaphonic sound.
Two-strip 3-D.
Single-strip side-by side anamorphic 3-D.
Sensurround.
CDS digital sound.
First generation 1.3k digital cinema projectors.
LC Concepts sound on magneto-optical disc.
Several other digital sound systems that never got anywhere.

We probably can't include 55.625 mm 6-perf projectors since I don't think any ever made it to an actual installation, but if the format had lasted a few more months it might have had a similar status to Vistavision projectors.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-06-2009, 03:30 PM:

To be honest EX has been more of a nuisance then it has done good. Aside from using it for sterring as Mr. Guttag has done it can cause utter confusion among new theater owners. I also wonder how many EX decoders are just always left in the on position when they sholdn't be. This is something no one would ever if it just faded away.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-06-2009, 04:39 PM:

And here is the zinger...if you use the Dolby CP650 and want to take advantage of the ability to take DCinema or other AES audio, the EX board comes along for the ride. Which also just about forces one to wire for EX (or pay close attention to setting the surround levels since the CP650 will "think" all four channels are there.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-06-2009, 05:40 PM:

Thats one of the reasons there IS a JSD-80!!!

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 12-06-2009, 10:39 PM:

also obs: Cinemascope 55. Louis

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 12-06-2009, 10:56 PM:

Also obs : Cinerama and possibly sooner rather than later, 15/70 IMAX

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-06-2009, 11:25 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Personally, I think that it should have be a 4-channel surround so that the surround information could be pulled back and into a corner rather than just sides and rear....again with steering the surrounds, 4 channels would have been better. To add insult to injury, you have to wire for 4-channel surrounds anyway.

To add insult to injury the Blu-ray format in home theater allows for discrete 4 channel surrounds in Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio and Linear PCM. In home theater there is very little need for 5 channel up front stage channels, but 4 channel surrounds are beneficial. Not many Blu-ray discs have been released with 7.1 discrete surround, but there has probably been more 7.1 BD releases as of late than faked "6.1" EX matrix surround theatrical releases.

It's been something of a joke how home theater has had better quality digital surround soundtracks than commercial theaters over the span of the DVD format's reign in home theater. Blu-ray is upping that once again.

Blu-ray is one-upping commercial movie theaters because even the damned D-cinema "phiggidy super digital" theaters are just ONLY wired for 5.1. Meanwhile the movie studio tweaks the mix on certain titles and when it hits Blu-ray it arrives in the form of a lossless or uncompressed 7.1 discrete audio track.
[Roll Eyes]

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-06-2009, 11:34 PM:

Well fine, but the average consumer still doesn't have a 40-foot wide screen and a 50x80 foot room with several 18" subwoofers. [Big Grin]

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 12-07-2009, 12:39 AM:

They also don't sit 60 feet away from their TV. [Razz]

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 12-07-2009, 02:11 AM:

quote: Ian Parfrey
Also obs : Cinerama and possibly sooner rather than later, 15/70 IMAX

Cinerama lasted about 15 years, so longer than most of the 'non-standard' formats. The longest-running revival, Bradford, has actually been running longer than the original, though with only one show per month, plus a couple of others at the Film Festival.

Imax has been with us for almost 40 years now; more than a third of the total history of moving pictures on film.

Both are very different to systems which were very short-lived.

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 12-07-2009, 06:15 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Blu-ray is one-upping commercial movie theaters because even the damned D-cinema "phiggidy super digital" theaters are just ONLY wired for 5.1. Meanwhile the movie studio tweaks the mix on certain titles and when it hits Blu-ray it arrives in the form of a lossless or uncompressed 7.1 discrete audio track.

The TOY STORY double feature that came out earlier this year actually was 7.1. Does anyone know if there are any theaters out there equipped for 7.1? Have there been any other 7.1 theatrical releases?

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 12-07-2009, 06:30 AM:

Also obs: sound 360, a derivative of 4 tr magnetic (same time as Star Wars, for Damnation Alley.) Louis

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 12-15-2009, 09:47 AM:

Re. 7.1, presumably theatres previously equipped for SDDS-8 playback could reproduce this format if their amplifiers, speakers etc. were in situ.

Albeit some kind of mods would be needed of course to take the 8 channels from the server through the processor, etc.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 02-15-2010, 04:59 AM:

At least SDDS still updates new films with SDDS on the website even though SDDS units are long discontinued from production. Any website with EX listings anyone?
Demetris

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 02-16-2010, 02:34 PM:

Found in IMDB this list

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 02-16-2010, 03:37 PM:

The title of this thread is 'EX Format Dying breed'.

Judging by that list, I'd say 'Dead' would be more apt. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 02-16-2010, 04:00 PM:

It seems only Disney still supports the format which is sad [Frown]

We are all drawing bck from the sound portion and focussing on the never staying Digital Cinema.