Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: "It's Complicated"Sound Level

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Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 12-24-2009, 10:25 AM:

In with my print of "It's Complicared" is a piece of paper from
the distributer stating that "Nancy Meyers, director of
It's Complicated" has requested that you make sure the sound
system is set at 7.0 decibels to ensure best presentation".

Nancy, dear- - I tell you what- - you don]t tell me how to
project films, and I won't tell you how to direct them, OK?

But if it makes you happy, I'll set my sound system to "7.0
decibles" which is about the same level of sound a running
refigerator makes if you're sittiing on the other side of a
room from one. If anyone has any questions as to why they
can't hear the dialog, I'll direct them to you.

Sincerely,
JimC

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-24-2009, 10:45 AM:

That same letter came from another director just a month or two ago. I emailed a response letting them know 7.0 db would be inaudible in an auditorium and their verbage should have said 7.0 on the fader.

Its not like it matters though. They are just copying and pasting the last letter and claiming a new director wrote it as if that will somehow make the people in the theaters that don't already turn their faders up to 7. It doesn't. For that matter, these directors had nothing to do with these silly letters. Setting the fader to 7.0 is industry standard. If a theater is not already running their movies at this level, they are not going to change their ways because of a form letter.

If they want to solve the problem, record the trailers lower!

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 12-24-2009, 11:51 AM:

So what you're saying is that a stern warning with nothing to back it up doesn't work? I never would've figured... [Wink]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-24-2009, 12:04 PM:

Maybe they are referring to setting SDDS system to +7.0dB? If so...then that would certainly be loud enough!

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 12-24-2009, 02:51 PM:

No go on the fridge, Jim. I think 7 dBC is more like the sound of a normal person breathing across the room. A quiet fridge is more like 30-40...

--jhawk

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 12-24-2009, 03:04 PM:

What about those theaters that are engineered such that 7.0 on the CP650 will blow the dentures out of the old folks watching these films?

I think these letters would have a bigger impact if they offered some actual information to go on...
"Did you know..." -- screen channel volume in db, surround volume in db, pink noise test, that kind of stuff.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-24-2009, 05:15 PM:

It wouldn't matter. A shitty EQ will still sounds loud and harsh to the patrons at 5. The system has to be properly setup in order to be able to run with the fader at 7 and not create customer complaints.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-24-2009, 10:10 PM:

Brad, you do know that "7" on the CP650 is indeed louder than "7" on any other processor, including all of the other Dolby processors, don't you? It is something like 2 or 3dB louder.

Steve

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-24-2009, 11:10 PM:

Nope, that is a fact I did not know. All of mine still run at 7 though for 90% of all features and CP650s make up 80-something percent of the locations I look after on a regular basis. (The Michael Bay shit has to be turned down.)

So what's the technical reason?

Posted by Benjamin Putman (Member # 5023) on 12-25-2009, 12:50 AM:

quote: Jim Cassedy
Nancy, dear- - I tell you what- - you don]t tell me how to
project films, and I won't tell you how to direct them, OK?

Maybe someone should tell her how to direct, frame down and you will see more boom mic than I can recall having ever seen in a wide release film.

It's painful.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-25-2009, 03:12 AM:

With digital intermediates, why aren't these prints released hard matted to 1.85? or maybe give a little leeway of safety margin for theatres not quite cut exactly to 1.85 -- maybe allow out to 1.77. In the digital world this should be a piece of cake to accomplish with every print.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 12-25-2009, 08:08 AM:

Why is the presence of out-of-frame boom mics a problem? Maybe Nancy Meyers expects projectionists to do their jobs without being told.

--jhawk

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-25-2009, 09:22 AM:

Regarding the CP650 fader...

It appears that Dolby got their calculations wrong way back on the Cat 85. The CP500 matched the legacy products but the CP650, rather than agreeing with all others, decided to "correct" a long ago mistake. The net result, the CP650 is louder on all volume setting than all legacy products.

Steve

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 12-25-2009, 06:33 PM:

quote: John Hawkinson
Maybe Nancy Meyers expects projectionists to do their jobs without being told.

Doubtful...she did send the letter that started this thread off after all.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 12-26-2009, 09:22 AM:

quote: John Hawkinson
No go on the fridge, Jim. I think 7 dBC is more like the sound of a normal person breathing across the room. A quiet fridge is more like 30-40...

But John, I have the little knob in MY refigerator set to "7" [Big Grin]

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 12-26-2009, 09:26 AM:

OK, John, it's really that John Toll, ASC knows projectionists will do their job.

--jhawk

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 12-26-2009, 11:50 PM:

Steve, I don't quite understand. If you set the fader to 7.0, run pink noise, and set the level so that your SPL meter reads 85dB, how can it be said that this 7.0 is louder than 7.0 on any other processor?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-27-2009, 12:17 AM:

Steve is saying that the internal level of the pink noise in the 650 is lower than their legacy processors, thus making the final output louder.

Sony did a similar thing with SDDS. Their pink noise was high frequency deficient, making their tracks extra bright (and harsh).

Posted by Greg Haas (Member # 1804) on 12-28-2009, 11:46 AM:

All set at 7. Now...opening sound cabinet...reaching for gain knobs on amp....

Ahhh...perfect!

pffft!

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-28-2009, 12:45 PM:

Way to screw up your system Greg. Then again if you have to do that, I guess it wasn't setup/designed properly in the first place.

Posted by Greg Haas (Member # 1804) on 12-28-2009, 02:16 PM:

I'm kidding, Brad. Sheese.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 12-31-2009, 05:25 AM:

Does the director also tell us how to deal with incredibly loud trailers before her soft-volume feature begins?

My first show of this was to a full house. LOTS of complaints about volume during the first and second trailers. Turned it down to 5.5 on my CP500.

A few minutes later, after the feature started, I was called to turn the sound up. So, back it went to 6.5. No more complaints, except that the auditorium is too cold... at 70 degrees!!!

We cant win.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 01-01-2010, 05:38 AM:

Thank you Steve for this useful hint.

Posted by Tom Inglis (Member # 5181) on 01-01-2010, 07:25 AM:

quote: Jim Cassedy
But John, I have the little knob in MY refigerator set to "7"

Mine goes up to 11. It's like 10, but 1 colder.

Posted by Matt Skilton (Member # 5288) on 01-01-2010, 10:38 AM:

I think some films would benefit from being played at 7 db. Gamer and Transformers 2 to name but two. Even better if the Xenon is switched off as well.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 01-01-2010, 06:35 PM:

Wait-a-sec. Steve, you say, "It appears that Dolby got their calculations wrong way back on the Cat 85. The CP500 matched the legacy products but the CP650, rather than agreeing with all others, decided to "correct" a long ago mistake. The net result, the CP650 is louder on all volume setting than all legacy products."

So, on the CP65, gain levels are set to 85dBC with the fader at 7.
My understanding is that's true of the CP650 as well (never set one up). So no matter how different the tapers are, 85dBC is 85dBC, and both processors should produce exactly the same volume level --- when they are at 7 on the fader.

(I suppose the pink noise generators are different and that might have some small effect).

if the CP650's taper has a different slope, then it should either be louder above 7 and softer beneath it, or vice versa. But it shouldn't be consistently louder.

Right?

I guess Ken made this point and Brad says it is the PN generator (wow, way to read the thread...). Is that really what is meant here?

--jhawk

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-01-2010, 07:25 PM:

I played a organ once in a theatre i thought would sound better if the blower was turned off [Smile]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-01-2010, 07:36 PM:

John...on the CP650...the REFERENCE level is different so 7 on a 650 set to 85dBc will play a film louder than than a CP65...it is in the pink noise reference level.

The CP500 and CP650 approximate the taper of the analog VCAs by having a double knee in their algorithms. I believe the CP650's user or installation manual will show you the double slope.