quote:

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LAS VEGAS, Mar 16, 2010 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- At ShoWest 2010, Dolby Laboratories, Inc. announced it is working with Walt Disney Pictures® and Pixar® Animation Studios to deliver a new audio format, Dolby® Surround 7.1. Disney® and Pixar have stated that Dolby Surround 7.1 will be launched in select theatres with the release of Toy Story® 3 in 3D this June.

"For 40 years Dolby has not only provided content creators with the tools to create a more realistic audio experience, but has also enabled the exhibitor to deliver audiences the ability to experience the content as the creator intended," said Page Haun, Senior Director, Marketing, Cinema Market Segment, Dolby Laboratories. "The release of Toy Story 3 in a discrete 7.1 mix will raise the bar for movie theatre owners and their patrons."

Dolby Surround 7.1 brings a more exciting sensory experience to audiences for 2D and gives content creators control over audio placement in a theatre when mixing 3D movies. The ability to compose audio with visual elements of 3D allows content creators to immerse the audience deeper into the movie with dramatic realism.

Dolby Surround 7.1 provides content creators four surround zones to better orchestrate audio channels in a movie theatre environment. The four surround zones incorporate the traditional Left Surround and Right Surround with new Back Surround Left and Back Surround Right zones. The addition of the two Back Surround zones enhances directionality in panning 360 degrees around the theatre.

Dolby Surround 7.1 format comprises 8 channels of audio and has the following channel layout: Left, Center, Right, Low-Frequency Effects (LFE), Left Surround, Right Surround, Back Surround Left (new), and Back Surround Right (new). In order for exhibitors to deliver the new format, Dolby will be providing Dolby Surround 7.1 playback capabilities in the Dolby CP650 and Dolby CP750 digital cinema audio processor lines.

At ShoWest, Dolby is demonstrating to exhibitors a discrete 7.1 mixed demo reel of past Pixar movies to showcase the advanced audio solution. After the show, exhibitors will be able to access the content to test and demonstrate in their theatres.

Exhibitors interested in learning more about Dolby Surround 7.1 should contact their nearest Dolby reseller or Dolby sales office.

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Original Source
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-21-2010, 02:46 PM:
 
Big whoop..another way for exhibitors to waste money like EX was..

Too many theatres have such poor acoustics and/or are too narrow/small to really benefit from the extra channels.

But Dolby has to keep their name out there somehow I suppose...
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-21-2010, 03:19 PM:
 
Actually, the cost on this is VERY minimal. Especially, if they already have surround EX. The Dcinema servers can handle it and any 8-channel cinema processors (most nowadays) can handle it.

It is a matter of wiring channels 11 and 12 from the server to the appropriate inputs of the cinema processor (firmware updates for the CP650 and CP750 are coming out to allow for this format).

Steve
 

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Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 03-21-2010, 07:12 PM:
 
It's very difficult to get excited by this after the disaster that was EX.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-21-2010, 07:29 PM:
 
Wow. Almost as good as the home! At least now home releases won't need to be remixed to take advantage of 7.1, so I view this as a good thing.

Any word if film will be compatible?
 

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Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 03-21-2010, 07:38 PM:
 
We have inquired with Disney as to whether they would be interested in making the 7.1 mix available for theaters with XD10 or XD20 players, as they are capable of 8 channel playback. Their response was negative, as they see the 7.1 as a logical enhancement to the 3-D digital presentation.
 

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Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 03-21-2010, 08:18 PM:
 
Another gimmick to get theatres to spend a few thousand dollars on a sound format that will turn up on a handful of movies before going away.
 

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Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 03-21-2010, 08:27 PM:
 

quote: Daniel Schulz

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We have inquired with Disney as to whether they would be interested in making the 7.1 mix available for theaters with XD10 or XD20 players, as they are capable of 8 channel playback. Their response was negative, as they see the 7.1 as a logical enhancement to the 3-D digital presentation.

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Might also have something to do with them announcing this as a format they worked on with Dolby...
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-21-2010, 09:16 PM:
 
I do not understand what this could have to do with 3D in any way. That's like saying they will saturate the color blue a bit more thanks to 3D.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-21-2010, 10:19 PM:
 
My reaction to this announcement is very mixed.

I see one positive side to it in that "Dolby Surround 7.1" in theaters may lead to many more movies featuring 7.1 audio and the 7.1 capability of Blu-ray getting much more use.

On the negative side: Digital cinema currently has uncompressed Linear PCM set as the standard audio format. Is Dolby looking to replace that with a lossy compressed format just to add two audio channels (and a Dolby brand)? Digital cinema can already support 8 channel playback in LPCM. The problem is no movie studio has bothered to take advantage of it. Maybe one problem is the generic sort of vibe LPCM carries.

I don't know how this new Dolby 7.1 format could be worked into being compatible with 35mm film systems unless Dolby came up with a new film reader and used the right side of the film strip to add more Dolby Digital data. The current 35mm SR•D system is so compressed as it is matters would be worsened if two more audio channels were squeezed into the same limited area of space.
 

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Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 03-22-2010, 01:20 AM:
 
At Cine Expo they showed to private sessions some tryouts of something which I am not sure this is the result of. What they did show us was a system capable of. Left/Centre/Right... Left High Speaker (located at the left high of screen), Right High Speaker (located at the right high of screen), Left Surround, Back left Surround, Back Right Surround, Right Surround and Overhead!! Quite a lot of channels don't you think. I can't say I was impressed then although it was a small meeting room which suffers a lot from accoustics.
Demetris
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 03-22-2010, 06:08 AM:
 
The number of channels keeps growing and growing, yet the poor patrons still only have two ears. Guess it's time to encourage them to get with the Disney program and grow that extra set of ears in the back of their heads so they can properly hear 4 channels behind them.

Seems to me, the marketing value of this format is a big zero. The public is weary of all this additional hype about different sound systems. Ask your average moviegoer if they even know what EX sound is, or more importantly, if they care. Now yet ANOTHER sound format....more rear channels? To what purpose? And what's this obsession with REAR channels? How come the FRONT channels never get enhancement? Or is this just so Disney can claim they have "Disney" sound?

Is this something that will ONLY be used on Disney releases? "Disney Sound(c)," like "Disney 3D(tm)" (the Rodent has always been obsessed about slapping its copyright and trademark symbol on just about everything)?

Is the logo going to be the Double-Dee for Dolby and sitting on top of it, the Disney Mouse Ears....7 of them?

DISNEY 7.1 SOUND.....here's the public:
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 03-22-2010, 07:21 AM:
 

quote: Bobby Henderson

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On the negative side: Digital cinema currently has uncompressed Linear PCM set as the standard audio format. Is Dolby looking to replace that with a lossy compressed format just to add two audio channels (and a Dolby brand)? Digital cinema can already support 8 channel playback in LPCM. The problem is no movie studio has bothered to take advantage of it. Maybe one problem is the generic sort of vibe LPCM carries.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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I don't know how this new Dolby 7.1 format could be worked into being compatible with 35mm film systems unless Dolby came up with a new film reader and used the right side of the film strip to add more Dolby Digital data. The current 35mm SR•D system is so compressed as it is matters would be worsened if two more audio channels were squeezed into the same limited area of space.

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There's room for more than is actually used, hence Dolby being able to fit in the totally useless logo in the centre of each block. I doubt that eliminating that would be enough to accommodate two extra full-range channels though.
 

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Posted by James Robertson (Member # 888) on 03-22-2010, 07:33 AM:
 
More audio chanels. Spare may please. I'm fed up being blasted out of my seat with the deafening existing systems at my local cinema complex (Hoyts) My wife and I now wear earplugs lightly to bring the level down to something bearable.
Avatar was a good example of the thunderous sound levels being pumped out particularly on music and effects. I was a professional sound recordist for thirty years so know a bit about sound levels.
Ask to turn the wick down a bit. Surely you jest.
 

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Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 03-22-2010, 08:21 AM:
 
Unfortunately most theaters are NOT properly equalised. Intelligibility is down to very little since I have heard many times of theaters being eq by ear only! That causes someone to boost the centre in order to 'theoreticaly' increase inteligibility and it leads to the crap cinema audio you hear at your average theater.
Demetris
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-22-2010, 08:49 AM:
 
Please stop and read.

This will NOT cost any great amount or anything at all to implement since many/most theatres already have the speakers and possibly the amplifier channels...so the biggest expense, for some, is another amplifier.

The digital players already support 16-channels (it is in the DCI spec).

The channels are already defined in the DCI spec as channels 11 and 12 so they too are uncompressed discrete channels.

Most DCinema processors are 8-channel output by nature and thus no cost there.

This one is brain dead easy to implement with just a little bit of wiring to pick up channels 11/12 instead of 7/8 (apparently reserved for ADA tracks).

Steve
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-22-2010, 09:16 AM:
 
Sorry steve... To claim this is brain dead easy is without forsight! Some locations will require an entirely new outboard D to A and or new processor to accomplish this. Not all locations wiring is that easy to access. It's just another "Follow the Dolby" idea that no one will follow.

I agree with most of your feelings although Disney may shove this down the throats of the exhibitor or dangle the film at the end of a fishing rod if you don't install it. This is a pathetic idea at best. And we could have had left extra and right extra back and put to good use instead. Something that would make sense instead.

Mark
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-22-2010, 11:49 AM:
 
I think a center ceiling channel would be better than all these rear surround extras they keep coming up with. It'd be awesome for sci-fi and war movies.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-22-2010, 11:56 AM:
 
Does/will this have a format number?
 

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Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 03-22-2010, 12:28 PM:
 
On the Dolby processors it will be Format 91.

There will *not* be any codec or Dolby compression scheme - the 7.1 format is just a formal channel assignment to the LPCM soundtrack on the server. Other non-Dolby cinema processors will play back the format just fine, it's just a matter of making sure all the inputs and outputs are properly assigned. The Left Back will be Channel 11 on the DCP and the Right Back Channel 12.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-22-2010, 01:23 PM:
 
Again...reading...most, if not all DCinema processors will require little to no modifications to play this and virtually little to no extra expense. If you have a CP650 with the Cat 790, 791 board...it is a zero cost. CP750, zero cost, JSD-80D, zero cost...that covers the bulk of the DCinema processors out there. If you have an older processor with an A/D converter and only a 6-channel input...then yes, no 7.1 but they are going to make an EX version also available.

I would not spend any great amount on upgrading from 5.1 to 7.1 but in MANY installations, the cost is practically nill and that is the direction that sound should go (discrete).

I agree about having LC/RC and that would be my preference. However, LC/RC is not eliminated for BSl and BSr. I know that on a DCinema upgrade we are doing in May (decided long before 7.1 was announced) that it will be getting 7.1 simply because it won't cost any more...the processor and theatre will already be equipped for it so why not?

Personally, I don't know or care if surround-7.1 catches on...I would prefer it to EX if one needs more than 2 surround channels since the sound may be moved around better...however, we've been wiring in this format for 10-years now already just due to EX and also to avoid series wiring on surrounds.

Steve
 

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Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 03-22-2010, 01:26 PM:
 
Is this new extended format for digital cinema only? I get the impression that it's an extension to Dolby Digital on film; basically a discrete 7-channel version of EX. Since digital cinema is already discrete, sound-wise, I'm not sure how this would be anything new for digital cinema, but I'm probably misunderstanding it.

Aside from that, I don't understand why this is a bad development. To me, it seems like more channels that theaters with the right equipment can take advantage of. Those that don't aren't negatively impacted in any way. How is that a bad thing?

Any issues of theaters being poorly equalized is a problem with the theater, not Dolby, Disney, or the new format.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-22-2010, 01:42 PM:
 
Steve, I have to agree with Mark..way too many theatres are NOT wired for EX or have had the foresight to make the surround array wiring accessable to facilitate the changes to go to 7.1 sound.

Many also don't have the rack space to spare to add any additional amplifiers.

And consider that the vast majority of theatres won't cough up $200 - 300 for a preventative maintainance call..how much would you charge to do this upgrade IF the processor is properly equipped, IF they have the surround array wired for easy access, and IF they have the extra amplifier on hand? It better be more than $300 or you are seriously underpricing yourself.

I'd say that unless you sold them an original install with all that criteria met, you're looking at a MINIMUM of $1,200 to $1,500 to do an upgrade to 7.1 since you have to provide the amplifier, wire and labor to split the surrounds.

In real-wold business economics I DO agree that that is a nominal cost, but we're talking about exhibitors.

And I still maintain that in most smaller houses that are too narrow or have poor acoustics, it is a waste of effort anyways.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-22-2010, 01:56 PM:
 
Somewhat amusingly, the first theatre where I worked actually had a separate wire run from the rear surround speakers to the booth. This was a 70v system that was installed in about 1955 for 4-track magnetic stereo, "upgraded" to Dolby Stereo in 1981, and poorly maintained through most of the late 1980s and 1990s. Still, it's funny that someone actually thought of the possibility of EX in the mid-1950s.

About a year after I left there, the entire building was renovated and substantially upgraded (Steve's company did the motion-picture re-installation); I have no idea how it is wired now.
 

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Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 03-22-2010, 02:00 PM:
 
Frank wrote [/QUOTE] The number of channels keeps growing and growing, yet the poor patrons still only have two ears. [/QUOTE]

This new audio format won't do much for me, as I have only ONE working ear.

Think of the added audio noise suffered by those using hearing aids or the hard-of-hearing systems provided by some theatres.

For those with sub-normal but amplified hearing, trailers blasting explosive sounds and overly loud pre-show adverts already provide audio torture; won't this be worsened by additional soundlines?
 

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Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 03-22-2010, 02:09 PM:
 
Scott - it's for Digital Cinema only. There isn't enough space in the Dolby Digital track for 35mm to accomodate extra discrete channels. We could theoretically provide 7.1 DDE soundtrack discs, but Disney has declined to provide 7.1 for the 35mm release.

You're spot on that D-Cinema already provides for discrete soundtracks. The 7.1 announcement is more a formal description of the channel layout that will be used for Toy Story 3 than an announcement of a new Dolby format.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-22-2010, 04:23 PM:
 
I have been dissatisfied with the directionality of 5.1 surround in many commercial movie theaters for a long time. The only way 5.1 delivers a proper balance of surround directionality is if the viewer is sitting in the auditorium's central sweet spot and the sound system is properly equalized. When EQ and seating choice are proper, it's all good. If either is off just a bit you won't hear real surround with 5.1. A big stereo left-right effect is all that is heard with nothing panning behind the viewer. Any front-to-back or back-to-front surround "fly-by" pans start and stop in the center of the room instead completing the pan. It freaking sucks. It's just as disappointing as a 5.1 track playing back with little to no sub bass (also a common problem).

The addition of two more surround channels for the back wall could help. I agree the effect will be worthless if the theater's audio system isn't properly adjusted, but then the 7.1 thing might draw more attention to the maintenance issue.

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr

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I have to agree with Mark..way too many theatres are NOT wired for EX or have had the foresight to make the surround array wiring accessable to facilitate the changes to go to 7.1 sound.

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The outmoded and poorly maintained theaters deserve to fall behind. A theater that can deliver 7.1 surround and do it well will have another bullet point on why it is better than its competitors. If we had to wait until every movie theater in the country was ready to install some new technological development we wouldn't see any progress on anything at all.

When formats like 70mm, Dolby Stereo and 5.1 digital sound were introduced they were offered by only a few theaters located in the biggest cities. Dolby Digital didn't have anymore than a couple hundred installations for its first couple of years.
 

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Posted by Peter Castle (Member # 1997) on 03-22-2010, 04:49 PM:
 
We have EX for 35mm.
But we have a CP500. Quite happily receiving 5.1 digital.
How can we reconfigure for 7.1 digital and not lose EX for 35mm?
There's no inputs that I know of into the CP500 for discrete back surrounds, nor any output for it.
 

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Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 03-22-2010, 05:21 PM:
 
@ James Robertson, where are you in Sydney? If you're anywhere near Randwick then dump Hoyts and come see us here. I guarantee your ears will thank you for it.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-22-2010, 05:58 PM:
 
If this is just a simple channel assignment, what does this have to do with Dolby™®©? They didn't do a damn thing, here. Also, why isn't this called Disney Surround? There are Disney DVDs (which are better than normal, run-of-the-mill DVDs), Disney Blu-ray (same story) as well as Disney 3D (which beats the snot out of Real D and Dolby 3D).

Oh well, at least movie theater sound is finally catching up to home sound.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-22-2010, 10:28 PM:
 
Nothing really, Joe...it can work on any server and any digital sound processor that handles 8-channels.

Maybe the vast majority of YOUR theatres are not easily suitable for surround 7.1, Tony...but not mine. As for the cost of the upgrade...if you do have the amplifier channels (as most of mine do)...the cost is really a single cable (one that connects 11/12 to the suitable input on the DCinema processor) and software updates...not even a recalibration is needed.

If you have the speakers but need an amplifier...you are still going to be typically around $1000/screen for the amp, wiring...etc.

If you don't have a suitable processor/speakers...I too wouldn't bother...not enough bang for the buck.

If you have a CP500, there is no surround 7.1 path for you...unless you want to put a DCinema processor like the CP750 DCP-300 or the JSD-100 after the CP500 and just use the CP500 for film and possibly non-sync. I probably wouldn't do it in this situation though...way too much $$$$ for the potential benefit.

Steve
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-22-2010, 10:41 PM:
 
LOL Steve, the theatres (actually screening rooms)that I have wired ALL have surrounds home-run into a can in the booth for ease of troubleshooting, and by extension ease of splitting the arrays.

I have spent the last several years doing screening rooms and not multis...but the few multies I did in the last few years (I was simply a hired hand and had no say into design or specs) were all NOT wired to make splitting the surrounds easy. (I can't name the chain but they are around 100)

So my comments reflect a fairly small segment of cinemas that I have had DIRECT contact with, but I know of two other chains (one of which had a hard-on for ceiling mounted surrounds for some time) that are again not wired to make surround splits easy, and those represent a LOT of screens here in So. Cali.

I can ask their former service tech what the deal was next time I talk to him.

quote: Steve Guttag

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If you have the speakers but need an amplifier...you are still going to be typically around $1000/screen for the amp, wiring...etc.

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quote: Steve Guttag

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Actually, the cost on this is VERY minimal.

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quote: Steve Guttag

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This will NOT cost any great amount or anything at all to implement since many/most theatres already have the speakers and possibly the amplifier channels...

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Just bustin your chops...
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-22-2010, 11:41 PM:
 

quote: Steve Guttag

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Nothing really, Joe...it can work on any server and any digital sound processor that handles 8-channels.

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Maybe I need to work on a 7.1 channel DTS theatrical logo.

 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-23-2010, 12:04 AM:
 
I can see it now:

"Presented in GLORIOUS DataStat Digital (or whatever the odd and unremarkable name they call themselves now is) which is no different in any way than Dolby 7.1 which is no different in any way than generic Linear PCM. Datasta Digital, just here to confuse you further."
 

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Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 03-23-2010, 10:32 AM:
 
I'm surprised that theaters don't have all their speakers home-run back to the booth, but I guess that's another example of how many theaters do things that are different from the way that makes sense to me.

If I owned a theater and had the ability to produce this new 7.1 channel format, you can bet that the showtimes would be noted with 7.1 flags, and I'd find/make signage and trailers that bragged about it. I'd even hire Bobby to create the signage! (sounds like an interesting side-business opportunity)

I doubt I'd come up with a logo for it, as the additional branding will just create a need for marketing and education, instead of just saying what it is. A tag line that reads "in 7.1 channel lossless sound" tells the story nicely, I think.

If Disney/Dolby wanted to support this "new format" of theirs, I think some new trailers/clips are in order so that theaters can show off the new format. In this digital cinema age, creating and distributing such content should be easier and cheaper than ever before.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-23-2010, 11:38 AM:
 
Just being able to get some new trailers touting digital sound would be nice. But Dolby seems to hang onto them like they are valuable relics. After about 3 or 4 requests, I gave up getting any from them and we're still using the same ones we started with, plus a couple of others sent to me by a generous film-techer. We have never been able to get a marquee panel either.

It is irritating when you TRY to promote your technology but get stymied by the company you bought it from.
 

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Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 03-23-2010, 12:26 PM:
 
Mike,

Just sent you a PM.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-23-2010, 01:36 PM:
 
Jeremy, if you have some secret to get those trailers from Dolby please PM me as well, I'm still waiting for the ones to go with the TWO CP-650's I bought for UC Irvine...
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-23-2010, 01:51 PM:
 
All those Dolby Digital trailers practically are relics now since Dolby changed its logo. Movie studios are already goofing it up in a lot of the advertising. The last few movies I've rented the Dolby Digital logo in the end credits was missing the crooked rule line.

Dolby has ditched the Eurostile and Helvetica type families previously used in its logos. The "Dolby" element has been modified. The sub-head type is set in a lesser known, technical looking typeface called Morgan Sans ($350 at MyFonts). Since lots of amateurs try to re-create many logos with various degrees of success (more often failure) and then upload them to logo sharing web sites I'm sure we'll see some hilarious looking Dolby knock-off logos pretty soon, if they're not already out there.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-23-2010, 02:35 PM:
 
I am with Steve. I agree that 7.1 is not a major improvement and I wouldn't spend much to implement it as well. But, a Steve said, it's a quick and easy upgrade for a cinema with EX, not so expensive for a cinema with proper cabling.

A pain in the neck for a cinema with older equipment or cabling issue of course.

So the 7.1 feature sounds nice to me.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-23-2010, 06:00 PM:
 

quote: Bobby Henderson

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All those Dolby Digital trailers practically are relics now since Dolby changed its logo.

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quote:

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Jeremy, if you have some secret to get those trailers from Dolby please PM me as well, I'm still waiting for the ones to go with the TWO CP-650's I bought for UC Irvine... [Roll Eyes]

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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I'd really like to get some vintage Pepsi signage for the lobby.

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You mean like these?
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-23-2010, 08:31 PM:
 
Obey Pepsi. Obey.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-23-2010, 10:14 PM:
 
Jeremy, PM reply sent. Thanks!!

I am also wondering what the heck is going on, I used to get great support from Dolby and am very disappointed by their lack of response to my order this time.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-24-2010, 12:45 AM:
 

quote: Mike Blakesley

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It is irritating when you TRY to promote your technology but get stymied by the company you bought it from.

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Mike,

You have no idea how many times other customers have told me the same thing. Several customers I service have stopped using Dolby completely just because of that! Dolby also succeeds in offending more customers then you can shake a stick at during trade shows. Fortunately, the advent of D-Cinema has really lessened the need for them anyway at least in the sound arena.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-24-2010, 01:15 PM:
 
Are Dolby and Sony sleeping together now?

Since they seem to have the same attitude towards customer service.
 

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Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 03-24-2010, 03:31 PM:
 
Man I'm starting to feel privileged. I've not had any trouble ordering Dolby materials.

As for Sony SDDS materials, well...I gave up on them a long time ago. Plus you have/had to pay for their stuff. The last order I made for SDDS materials it took almost a year for someone to finally tell me that they would be on back order indefinitely. At that point I just requested our money back.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-24-2010, 04:53 PM:
 

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr

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Are Dolby and Sony sleeping together now?

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• Hard copy manuals (It would be nice to be able to have a reference on hand without having to break out the laptop, that and leaving a copy for the client);
• Test films (Cat 69 and pink were always included it seemed, and I think some of the first CP-500's included Cat 97 and 566);
• And copies of the trailers in flat and scope.

Even the new shipping boxes don't seem to be as sturdy, but that is a minor quibble as long as the unit survives shipping.
Do any test films/trailers come with the Readers from Dolby?
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-24-2010, 08:21 PM:
 
Tony, I can't answer your questions with personal experience or knowledge (just information received from a few "inside sources"), but I do know that Dolby is a very changed company from what it used to be. They simply aren't "Good ol' Dolby" any more. Notice that many of their best and brightest people are no longer with them.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-24-2010, 08:27 PM:
 
Good point Joe. Having been around for 20+ years in this biz I guess I am spoiled from past experience.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-24-2010, 09:27 PM:
 
How long has Dolby been a publicly traded company?
 

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Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 03-24-2010, 09:34 PM:
 
February 17, 2005 according to Wikipedia.
 

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Posted by David Stone (Member # 4846) on 03-25-2010, 07:43 PM:
 
Hi Guys,

Do you think Disney/Dolby might bring out on matrix decoder so snyone who has a CP65 SA10 combo could utilize the 7.1 system,

Cheers,

David.
 

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Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 03-25-2010, 09:07 PM:
 
I talked to Norm at Dolby only a few days ago; he was very helpful. There is, at least a little, old-time service there!
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-25-2010, 10:11 PM:
 
John, is he in the New York office or L.A. (San Francisco?) office?

Bobby and Mike, well that explains a lot since the downfall seemed to start around 2006,
 

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Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 03-25-2010, 10:31 PM:
 

quote: David Stone

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Do you think Disney/Dolby might bring out on matrix decoder so snyone who has a CP65 SA10 combo could utilize the 7.1 system

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quote: James Robertson

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More audio chanels. Spare may please. I'm fed up being blasted out of my seat with the deafening existing systems at my local cinema complex (Hoyts) My wife and I now wear earplugs lightly to bring the level down to something bearable.
Avatar was a good example of the thunderous sound levels being pumped out particularly on music and effects. I was a professional sound recordist for thirty years so know a bit about sound levels.
Ask to turn the wick down a bit. Surely you jest.

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quote: Joe Redifer

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Who uses a CP65 with a digital projector?

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quote: Jonathan Goeldner

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I really can't wait to hear this in discrete 7.1 sound, how many theatres are speculated to be up and running to showcase Toy Story 3 as such when it opens?

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If the typical practices of advertising technical information regarding presentation continues unfixed it will be anyone's guess how many theaters and specifically which theaters will show Toy Story 3 in discrete 7.1, quad channel surround audio.

Newspapers have sucked for years at listing this type of information and movie theaters in general haven't been too good at listing the information either. For much of the past decade that sort of technical information has largely been omitted. You just get the show title, show times and MPAA rating. That's about it.

I'm not even convinced the movie theater chains are completely keeping track of how their auditoriums are equipped. Considering any D-cinema theater could wire up for 7.1 I don't know how Dolby would be able to keep track of "Dolby Surround 7.1" installations either.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-20-2010, 09:54 AM:
 
No...EX equipped would still be as EX is a subset of Surround 7.1. For instance, in a CP650, it will merely be a new format number.

Any processor that does EX on board AND has 8-channels worth of inputs should be able to, in software, have a surround 7.1 mode since it merely passes the discrete audio through (with a B-chain). The only ones that have to make choices are those that have older EX installations with outboard EX decoders (SA10s, DTS-ES, Panastereo SP23). There is no discrete, with a fader 8-channel signal path. This would be a tough one for even the Mighty CP200 to overcome...unless...one were to utilize the signal path created for the Mid-P and Mid-Q EQ/Delay and merely add the Cat 517/117) and route the new channels though there to get the fader and then come up with the switching logic to ensure that it goes between Stereo and 7.1 surround. We already have CP200s with Surround EX inside the CP200 (with full 1/3-Octave EQ).

I also read that Bay Area Cinema Products (aka "Sam") is working on some form of Surround 7.1 adapter (not necessarily for the CP200).

Steve
 

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Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 04-20-2010, 10:04 AM:
 
Newspapers pretty much suck at delivering showtimes, especially as theaters continue to reduce/eliminate their ads. Phone recordings are boring enough, much less to have a lot of detail thrown in about formats.

That leaves web sites to do the heavy lifting, and that's as it should be.

From our perspective at The BigScreen Cinema Guide, we support all the digital sound formats with logos for the regular and EX/ES varieties:

http://www.bigscreen.com/about/help.php?id=6

Theaters that will be showing Toy Story 3 in 7.1 should include that as a note in their showtimes that they provide to CinemaSource. That will allow the notation about 7.1 channel sound in the notes that appear below the showtimes, and we'll also create a new "Digital Sound" logo that includes the 7.1 indication if we see theaters actually taking advantage of that.

But that comes back to the issue of theaters providing accurate and detailed information. Even though we've supported the indications for the digital sound formats, THX, and stadium seating for many years, quite a few theaters still aren't providing that information on a reliable basis.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-20-2010, 10:55 AM:
 
Will there be some sort of EX Plus format developed for Toy Story 4 or Phantom Menace 2 that matrixes the back two surrounds and gives a center back surround?
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-20-2010, 11:38 AM:
 
I still want that over head center channel. Then there could be upgrades: overhead left and right, then front and back....this could be better than the proliferation of soda pop brands!
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-20-2010, 01:35 PM:
 
Fear not Mike...

A potential format Dolby is working on is 11.1...which has not one, but TWO surround overhead channels. They combine them with an elevated LC/RC speakers behind the screen to make "flyovers" and such more effective. It is still an experimental format.

Steve
 

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Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 04-20-2010, 10:57 PM:
 
I remember reading awhile back that demos were done with the soundmix of 'We Were Soldiers' with a ceiling speaker.
 

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Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 05-19-2010, 11:37 PM:
 
has there been any new news from Dolby which theatres will be showcasing Toy Story 3 in 7.1 discrete?
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-19-2010, 11:42 PM:
 
My home theater will be. It's been set up for discrete 7.1 for well over a year. But Toy Story 3 on Blu-ray will be in DTS 7.1, not Dolby True HD.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-19-2010, 11:53 PM:
 
We have set up two theatres for Dolby Surround 7.1. The Abingdon CineMall in Abingdon, VA and the YRC Cinemas in Hayes, VA.

Abingdon was first confirmed commercial theatre for Surround 7.1. Disney/Technicolor sent out test material for those theatres that indicated they were to install the new sound format to verify that all would be good on opening day. We wired Abingdon almost 2 months ago and were only awaiting Dolby's software for the CP650 to finish the job.

Steve
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-19-2010, 11:54 PM:
 
Waitaminute... Won't this movie be in Disney Surround 7.1, not Dolby 7.1?
 

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Posted by David Stone (Member # 4846) on 05-20-2010, 03:43 AM:
 
Hi everyone,

I insatalled a CP750 for 7.1 surround sound 2 weeks ago,luckly I already had Ex and thus no major expense other than trading in a as new DMA8+, and like everyone else we await Dolby to provide the software. We did however screen a 15 minute pixar 7.1 short in 5.1 and it was very impressive...I hope the 7.1 is mixed as well or better..I have a 65 feet wide auditorium which helps greatly with separation and effects.

Cheers,

David
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-20-2010, 10:09 AM:
 

quote: Joe Redifer

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Waitaminute... Won't this movie be in Disney Surround 7.1, not Dolby 7.1?

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quote: Steve Guttag

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It is still an experimental format.

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Lets pray it stays that way! I just can't see mounting/riggin two 5674's in the ceiling of any theater...
 

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Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 05-22-2010, 04:46 AM:
 
Steve,

Interesting, the software updates aren't over here.

Did you get it on request? Did your client haev to pay for it?
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-22-2010, 09:30 PM:
 
In the US (I don't know about other territories), early adopters of surround 7.1 received the updates, gratis. Like Global Audio delay, they will be charge items in the future.

They are NOT on Dolby Secure...you will need to contact your Dolby rep to receive them.

Steve
 

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Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 06-11-2010, 10:20 PM:
 
Dolby's website main page advertises their 7.1 system/Toy Story 3 release, but you'd think they could actually ALSO list the theatres that have made the upgrade - I'm really hoping (fingers crossed) that at least one of the seven theatres that have midnight showing next Thursday (technically Friday morning) will showcase the movie as such.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-11-2010, 11:02 PM:
 
I guess they feel it is up to the individual theaters to advertise it for themselves, which virtually no theater will. Instead, it will be all about the 3D OMFG!
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-11-2010, 11:05 PM:
 
Advertising sound is so 20th century.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-11-2010, 11:19 PM:
 
If a theater advertised MP3-quality audio, the masses would come in droves.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-11-2010, 11:26 PM:
 
The Academy (Greenbelt, MD) "may" go 7.1...if the surrounds are wired for it. We are putting in a new system and I'll wire it 7.1 if the system will permit (has the surround wired right and has the amps).

Steve
 

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Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 06-12-2010, 03:25 AM:
 
Am about to do a few for the release of Toy Story 3, all are currently EX systems so it's no big deal.

Once you've actually got the firmware.......

For something they are blowing their trumpets over, they do not make it easy
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-12-2010, 05:53 AM:
 
Pete...I know in the states...they have a PDF they send out that has one sign off on the licensing...fill out the data, click submit and within 24 hours, you are given access to an FTP sight for the firmware.

I don't know how they are doing it in other parts of the world. Have you contacted your Dolby office?

Steve
 

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Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 06-12-2010, 07:13 AM:
 
Same system here Steve, it just took ages to get said pdf.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-12-2010, 02:41 PM:
 
I suppose it was a bit slow in coming. Fortunately, upgrades to either CP650s or CP750s is pretty simple and does not require recalibration.

Steve
 

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Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 06-15-2010, 03:32 PM:
 
Of the 2,000 theaters that have showtimes for Toy Story 3 (in 3D and 2D), only one has an indication of 7.1 sound:

Rogers 18 - Rogers, MN

So, either theaters aren't buying into the 7.1 format, or they aren't advertising it. I can understand the logic behind the former, but absolutely cannot comprehend the latter.

I was going to do an article about the new format and instructions for how to look for the designation in our showtimes, but with only one theater talking about it, it would be cruel to talk about the feature and then have no way to help people find where the movie is playing in that format.

If you have 7.1 channel capability with this movie, please include in the notes/comments field when you submit your showtimes to CinemaSource (West World Media).
 

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Posted by Jonathan Althaus (Member # 5042) on 06-15-2010, 08:11 PM:
 
I heard all of Cinemark's XD auditoriums will play it in 7.1, but this is only a rumor.
 

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Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 06-16-2010, 10:37 AM:
 
We have 4 locations in the Detroit area that will be 7.1 capable on at least 1 screen each, using QSC equipment so we can't use the Dolby materials.

The marketing aspect is a "why bother" scenario, i.e. how much extra business would we really get from spending the time and money to advertise it - EX didn't really net us significant additional customers so why try with 7.1? Another issue is we currently have only 1 or 2 7.1 screens at each location and chances are it will run for only a week before it gets moved out. (I did mention to marketing that we might be the only ones in our market, but there was no interest).

I know Fandango has a scenario worked out with Dolby to denote the 7.1 showtimes, but nothing I'm aware of with Movietickets.com.

quote: Scott Jentsch

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If you have 7.1 channel capability with this movie, please include in the notes/comments field when you submit your showtimes to CinemaSource (West World Media).

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quote:

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See Buzz Lightyear and Woody in Toy Story 3D on one of the LARGEST 3D Screens in the area! UltraScreen® XL3D Featuring Dolby Surround 7.1 Audio debuts in your area!

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quote:

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From the Marcus Theatres Facebook page:

quote: See Buzz Lightyear and Woody in Toy Story 3D on one of the LARGEST 3D Screens in the area! UltraScreen® XL3D Featuring Dolby Surround 7.1 Audio debuts in your area!

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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seems like a d-cinema theater without Dolby-branded gear could change the wiring

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Yep, done that with QSC processors.

Add Michigan to the list:
Cinema Hollywood (Birch Run - 1 screen)
Emagine Novi (1 screen)
Emagine Canton (1 screen)
Emagine Woodhaven (all screens)
 

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Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 06-18-2010, 02:13 PM:
 
in typical fashion, The Washington Post movie section makes no mention of which theatres in and around the DC area has made the upgrade - supposedly the theatre I saw it at 12.01AM this morning, the Egyptian HAD upgraded to 7.1 - the mix was VERY active and at times really quite aggressive. The sound design is exemplory. On the huge XD screen the image was massive and down right impressive.

Dolby's link to theatres that have upgraded to 7.1:

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/product/movies/theater/find-a-cinema-71.html

Question: has Dolby made a 7.1 tag for theatres to show before the feature presentation??
 

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Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 06-18-2010, 03:23 PM:
 
Updated...

"TOY STORY 3" DOLBY SURROUND 7.1 ENGAGEMENTS

ALABAMA
Troy – Continental Cinema 5

ALBERTA
Edmonton – Cineplex Odeon North Edmonton Cinemas

ARKANSAS
Jonesboro – Malco Hollywood 15

BRITISH COLUMBIA
Pitt Meadows – Cineplex Odeon Meadowtown Centre Cinemas

CALIFORNIA
Alhambra – Regal Renaissance Stadium 14
El Dorado Hills – Regal El Dorado Hills Stadium 14
Escondido – Regal Escondido Stadium 16
Livermore – Cinema West Livermore Cinemas
Los Angeles – Regal LA Live Stadium 14
Modesto – Regal Modesto Stadium 10
Oakland – Grand Lake
Pasadena – Gold Class Cinemas One Colorado Cinemas
Riverside – Regal Riverside Plaza Stadium 16
Salinas – Maya Cinemas Salinas 14
San Francisco – Sundance Kabuki
Stockton – Regal City Centre Stadium 16

COLORADO
Lakewood – Regal Colorado Mills Stadium 16

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
Washington – Regal Gallery Place Stadium 14

FLORIDA
Gainesville – Regal Royal Park Stadium 16
Kissimmee – Regal The Loop Stadium 16
Melbourne – Premiere Oaks Stadium 10
Miami – Regal Southland Mall Stadium 16
Pinellas Park – Regal Park Place Stadium 16
Winter Park – Regal Winter Park Village Stadium 20

GEORGIA
Columbus – Carmike 15

HAWAII
Honolulu – Consolidated Ward Stadium 16

ILLINOIS
Chicago – Kerasotes Showplace 16 Icon
Elgin – Marcus Elgin 15
Orland Park – Marcus Orland Park 14
South Barrington – Gold Class Cinemas The Arboretum of South Barrington

INDIANA
Fort Wayne – Regal Coldwater Crossing Stadium 14

KANSAS
Wichita – 13th Avenue Warren
Wichita – 21st Street Warren

MARYLAND
Frederick – Regal Westview Stadium 16
Germantown – Regal Germantown Stadium 14
Salisbury – Regal Salisbury Stadium 16

MASSACHUSETTS
Bellingham – Regal Bellingham Stadium 14
Boston – Regal Fenway Stadium 13
Swansea – Regal Swansea Stadium 12

MICHIGAN
Birch Run – Cinema Hollywood
Canton – Emagine Canton
Novi – Emagine Novi
Woodhaven – Emagine Woodhaven

MINNESOTA
Lakeville – Muller Family Theatres Lakeville 21
Monticello – Muller Family Theatres Monticello 15
Oakdale – Marcus 16 at Oakdale
Rogers – Muller Family Theatres Rogers 18
St. Louis Park – Kerasotes Showplace Icon

MISSOURI
Dardenne Prairie – Wehrenberg Town Square 12
Hazelwood – Regal St. Louis Mills Stadium 18

NEVADA
Las Vegas – Brenden Las Vegas 14

NEW HAMPSHIRE
Newington – Regal Fox Run Stadium 15

NEW JERSEY
Manville – Reading Cinemas Manville 12
Mays Landing – Regal Hamilton Commons Stadium 14
Secaucus – Kerasotes Showplace 14

NEW MEXICO
Las Cruces – Allen Cineport 10
Los Lunas – Storyteller Starlight 8
Santa Fe – Regal Santa Fe Stadium 14

NEW YORK
Buffalo – Regal Walden Galleria Stadium 16
Deer Park – Regal Deer Park Stadium 16
New York – Reading Cinemas Village East 7
Niagara Falls – Regal Niagara Falls Stadium 12
Poughkeepsie – Regal Galleria Mall Stadium 16
Westbury – Regal Westbury Stadium 12
White Plains – National Amusements City Center 15: Cinema de Lux

NORTH CAROLINA
Apex – Regal Beaver Creek Stadium 12
Asheville – Regal Biltmore Grande Stadium 15
Raleigh – Regal North Hills Stadium 14
Wilmington – Carmike 16
Wilmington – Regal Mayfaire Stadium 16

OHIO
Lima – Regal American Mall Stadium 12
Mason – National Amusements Deerfield Towne Center Stadium 16
Pickerington – Marcus Pickerington

OKLAHOMA
Moore – Moore Warren

ONTARIO
Guelph – Cineplex Galaxy @ Guelph
Milton – Cineplex Galaxy @ Milton
Oshawa – Cineplex Odeon Oshawa Cinemas
Stoney Creek – Cineplex SilverCity Hamilton Mountain

OREGON
Canby – Canby Cinema 8
Corvallis – Carmike 12
Eugene – Regal Valley River Center Stadium 15
Salem – Regal Lancaster Mall Stadium 11
Tigard – Regal Bridgeport Village Stadium 18

QUEBEC
Brossard – Cineplex Brossard Cinemas

RHODE ISLAND
Warwick – National Amusements Showcase Cinemas Warwick Mall

SOUTH CAROLINA
Columbia – Regal Sandhill Stadium 16
Florence – Regal Swamp Fox Stadium 14
Summerville – Regal Azalea Stadium 16

TENNESSEE
Franklin – Carmike Thoroughbred 20
Hendersonville – Regal Streets of Indian Lake Stadium 16
Knoxville – Regal Pinnacle Stadium 18
Memphis – Malco Stage 13

VIRGINIA
Abingdon – Abingdon Cinemall
Alexandria – Regal Kingstowne Stadium 16
Chesapeake – Regal Greenbrier Stadium 13
Colonial Heights – Regal Southpark Mall Stadium 16
Hayes – YRC Cinemas York River Crossing 8
Richmond – Regal Short Pump Stadium 14

WASHINGTON
Everett – Regal Everett Mall Stadium 16
Lacey – Regal Martin Village Stadium 16
Renton – Regal The Landing Stadium 14
Seattle – Regal Thornton Place Stadium 14
Vancouver – Cinetopia

WISCONSIN
Brookfield – Marcus Majestic Brookfield
Madison – Marcus Point 16
Mequon – Marcus Northshore 11
Portage – Portage Theatres 7
Sturtevant – Marcus Renaissance
 

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Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 06-18-2010, 04:47 PM:
 
Not one theater in Texas is playing the movie in 7.1. Interesting.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-18-2010, 07:55 PM:
 
Texas isn't technologically advanced enough to handle 7.1 channels of sound.
 

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Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 06-18-2010, 09:30 PM:
 
Yeah, not enough fingers to count the channels.
 

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Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 06-18-2010, 11:09 PM:
 
Interestingly, the studio/agency ad in the LA Times actually distinguishes between Dolby Surround 7.1 and 7.1 Digital Surround, with the AMC Century 15 and Regal L.A. Live showing it in the former and the El Capitan in the latter.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-19-2010, 01:54 AM:
 
That is indeed interesting, especially considering that there is zero advantage whatsoever to the Dolby "version". 7.1 is 7.1. Maybe Dolby spent $5 or $10 on marketing which is why the difference is actually being noted, to sway folks to Dolby theaters, though it still seems unlikely.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-19-2010, 02:54 AM:
 
So as Steve points out, 7.1 will be really great mainly for "fly overs?" Hmmm....that's it....just fly-overs?! I can see the studios demanding that the writers work in fly-overs in as many scripts as they can. Hey, even in a serious drama people have to take airplanes.

And in theatres that spent the money on 7.1 and the advertising, the managers will be demanding that the tech forget about setting them to Dolby level, "The audience came to hear this new overhead surround sound. I don't care about no Dolby specs; turn 'em UP. I wanna hear those damn things"

So in New York City neither of the big guys -- not a single AMC or Regal -- have bothered to get on this wagon? Wow; how's THAT for ho-hum unenthusiasm?! They must be REALLY unimpressed with it. I guess they figure, why bother with a new technology if they can't add another $3 surcharge on the ticket price for it, eh?

Hey, maybe they can supply special Real7.1D passive headsets that cup the ears in different directions to allow the full 7.1 dimensional effect, as without them, two ears simply can't distinguish where the 7 sounds are coming from and all they will hear will be one sound on top of another just like when you take off the 3D glasses. The exhibitors could hand out the Real7.1D headsets along with the $3 RealD glasses and charge another 3 bucks for them. And yes, people will complain about a second thing that they have to wear on their heads just to see a 3D/7.1 movie; that is, after they finish complaining about the additional surcharge.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-19-2010, 05:51 AM:
 
Surround 7.1 can be used for more than fly overs...it can help one place the sound better than EX ever could...in fact, 7.1 is where surrounds should have gone after 5.1 rather than EX.

As I've said before...surround 7.1 is something that I wouldn't spend any great deal of time or money on BUT if one is doing a new installation or is working with an existing EX installation, surround 7.1 is pretty close to a zero cost upgrade.

Of the two Surround 7.1 theatres we did on the list...one was an existing surround-EX that just needed a CP650 firmware upgrade and the other was a new Surround installation (changed out some wasted surrounds) and added an amp. The cost of making them Surround 7.1 was so trivial in both situations, that you almost had to try and not make them 7.1 Since we wire with Belden 1803F (4-pair AES), it is just a matter of terminating pair #4 on channels 11/12 on the DCinema server instead of 7/8...not exactly challenging.

Steve
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-19-2010, 10:34 AM:
 
But Steve, might as well wire for the inevitable -- split overhead surrounds, i.e., 8.1 Then the plane can pass overhead sideways!
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-19-2010, 11:07 AM:
 
The 11.1 format does have two overhead surrounds...at least when I heard it...it was still under development.

As to 7.1...it truly can be a zero cost upgrade...most folks are putting up the surrounds in those locations anyway. Using a 4-channel amp instead of a 2 channel amp on the surrounds will likely better distribute the power anyway and not cost any more (e.g. use a DCA 1824 on the surrounds).

Steve
 

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Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 06-19-2010, 11:09 AM:
 
NO!

From back to front as it flies toward the screen and through it. (3D Required!)
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-19-2010, 01:38 PM:
 
Ummm, wait, what? 7.1 does not have any overhead surrounds. It's just discrete EX.
 

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Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 06-19-2010, 01:41 PM:
 
FRANK ANGEL wrote:
"So in New York City neither of the big guys -- not a single AMC or Regal -- have bothered to get on this wagon? Wow; how's THAT for ho-hum unenthusiasm?! They must be REALLY unimpressed with it. I guess they figure, why bother with a new technology if they can't add another $3 surcharge on the ticket price for it, eh?"

I find that odd too, since I thought for certain Regal E-Walk's RPX auditorium would have ideal for the conversion 7.1 setup.

Very surprised and glad that both 3D screens at Regal Gallery Place made the upgrade.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 06-19-2010, 01:45 PM:
 
What do I need and/or how do I get that on my CP-650? YooHoo Steve!
 

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Posted by Mark Strube (Member # 4190) on 06-19-2010, 02:45 PM:
 

quote: Jonathan Goeldner

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Question: has Dolby made a 7.1 tag for theatres to show before the feature presentation??

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quote: Jonathan Goeldner

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I find that odd too, since I thought for certain Regal E-Walk's RPX auditorium would have ideal for the conversion 7.1 setup.

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quote: Jonathan Goeldner was the last to post

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So in New York City neither of the big guys -- not a single AMC or Regal -- have bothered to get on this wagon?

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quote: Manny Knowles

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please note the correct spelling of "unveils"

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True, but you hardly used any capital letters or punctuation in your post which is just as annoying for some readers.

And... "chanel" didn't bug you?
 

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Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 06-21-2010, 10:46 AM:
 

quote: Paul Linfesty

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According to the Ad in Sunday's NY Times, Regal's E-Walk Stadium 13 is showing TS3 in 7.1 Digital Surround and City Cinema's Village East Cinemas is showing it in Dolby Surround 7.1.

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It's unfortunate that somehow, they were able to coordinate newspaper advertising for 7.1, which requires advance planning to make newspaper deadlines, but most of these theaters are dead silent about 7.1 on their web sites, which is something they're able to change very quickly and usually in-house.

Maybe if 7.1 takes off, we can get this coordinated so that the information can actually get to the majority of the viewing audience, which isn't looking at a newspaper for their information.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-21-2010, 07:01 PM:
 

quote: Manny Knowles

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on the other hand, we've seen Le and Re go away...we've seen SDDS8 come and go...we've seen EX come and go...and now there's this system being announced ALMOST AS IF it was created just for this one movie. I dunno...

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I've been pretty underwhelmed by how "Dolby Surround 7.1" has been marketed, but then this isn't surprising when one looks back and sees the luke-warm efforts at pushing Dolby Digital•EX and DTS-ES as well as leaving the capabilities for more channels of sound in the DTS-XD10 and DTS-XD20 processors totally overlooked.

I think stadium seating, digital projection and lately digital 3D have taken a lot of attention away from showing movies with great quality, immersive sound.

Digital surround sound used to be a big deal. Cinema Digital Sound had its first advertised public showings with Dick Tracy 20 years ago as of last week (June 15, 1990). Considerably more hype was put behind "Dolby Stereo Digital," "The Digital Experience" and "Breaking the Digital Sound Barrier."

When digital projection was introduced in 1999 the audio side was the only thing that offered any real improvement, in the form of linear PCM 5.1 audio rather than lossy compressed 5.1. The hype was all about the digital picture -roughly the equivalent of watching 720p HDTV. The "digital" buzzword is the only thing that continued to be hyped, nothing really specific such as the change from 1.2K to 2K quality or audio going from 20-bit LPCM to 24-bit and even 24/96 in some cases. Let's not do anything to get some nerdy tech freaks start geeking out in the lobby.

7.1 surround has a legitimate place in any commercial movie theater auditorium. 5.1 has some serious limitations and 7.1 definitely overcomes that with providing two discrete back wall surround channels.

I don't know if 7.1 surround will take off big or if it will just become a kind of hidden and only occasionally used feature in theaters. I think the format's chances are certainly a lot better than SDDS-8 because the same 7.1 quad surround track can be used in home theater via Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD and LPCM. Most new audio video receivers of any good quality level have support for 7.1.

It was odd how home theater offered better support for Dolby Surround•EX and DTS-ES. More DVD releases featured Dolby•EX branded audio tracks than theatrical releases. We have already seen a few movies be released 5.1 only theatrically and then appear on Blu-ray boasting 7.1 audio. Hopefully that trend will now change so sound designers can mix a movie in 7.1 right from the start and having the 7.1 track playing in the theater rather than throwing in a couple extra audio channels after the fact for Blu-ray release.
 

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Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 06-21-2010, 10:25 PM:
 
but has SDDS8ch really come and gone, according to SDDS' website, 'Despicable Me' has and is being released in 8-channel sound - since it IS possible for some of the audio processors to accomodate up to 16 channels of sound, I think that the big ultrawide screens that are becoming more common, the addition of left center and right center channels of sound to digital projection would be highly beneficial. Datasat (DTS) just released a press release that their AP20 is 7.1 compatiable (but we've known that along that's really not new news )

"Datasat Digital Entertainment, Inc. announced on Monday the compatibility of the Datasat™ AP20 16-channel audio processor with the new 7.1 discrete surround format utilized by Walt Disney Pictures and Pixar Animation Studios on the latest Woody and Buzz installment, Toy Story 3. By utilizing the AP20 16-channel audio processor, Datasat has assisted cinemas in upgrading to the new discrete surround format"
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-22-2010, 06:24 AM:
 
Where are you getting that Despicable Me is SDDS-8 ? It is just listed as an SDDS release, nothing about 8-channel. Surfs Up is the last listed 8-channel movie that I can find on the SDDS site and that was from June of 2007, of which there were three 8-channel films.

I agree that 5-screen channels is a great format and one I prefer over even the second surround...however the industry does not seem has concerned about them. In theory, channels 7/8 in DCinema are supposed to be LC/RC. It is one of the reasons Surround 7.1 uses 11/12.

Steve
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-22-2010, 10:44 PM:
 
One of the problems is there is no foreseeable use of 5 screen channels with home theater. The movie industry is preoccupied with home video sales. Four surround channels can be used in home theater setups and it may be a long time (if ever) that five stage channels get supported in home theater sound formats. The discrete 7.1 formats on Blu-ray already pre-date "Dolby Surround 7.1" by more than 2 years. Home video actually may have driven the advent of four channel surround 7.1 in commercial movie theaters. Pretty freaking odd.
 

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Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 06-23-2010, 01:58 PM:
 

quote: Bobby Henderson

---

I think stadium seating, digital projection and lately digital 3D have taken a lot of attention away from showing movies with great quality, immersive sound.

Digital surround sound used to be a big deal.

---

At the risk of offending some here, I blame the theaters.

This is a sticky subject with me, as I've been encouraging theaters to advertise their digital sound formats since 1996 when I started The BigScreen Cinema Guide!

They wouldn't advertise which format they were using, when the formats had definite quality differences (Dolby Digital constantly hiccupped at reel changes in theaters, around here, at least). The excuses I was given was that they didn't want to advertise one digital sound format, only to have to move the show to a different screen that had a different format, or no digital at all.

They couldn't be bothered to run the digital sound trailers before the movie, so the audience wasn't even being educated about what it was that they were hearing. A major marketing opportunity lost, but I was told that the theater couldn't be bothered splicing on a digital sound trailer, and then have to change it if they had to move the film to another screen.

Theaters (around here) never seemed to get the fact that running that digital sound trailer was part of the show. Of course, the fact that DTS' flying disc trailer wasn't all that great, but the Dolby ones, and even the few SDDS ones I saw, were pretty good. I still remember the Dolby Train trailer before The Fugitive! (There was an SDDS one featuring Zorro that made good use of the screen channels)

That lack of effort on the part of the theaters continues to this day with Dolby EX and DTS ES never being advertised, and the 7.1 sound for Toy Story 3 being treated like a mix between a state secret and a footnote in a few newspaper ads that few people under the age of 60 ever saw.

All that creates a sense of apathy from the theater industry, a lost opportunity to market an advantage to the audience, and it tells studios that it's not worth their time to invest in better sound formats.

Fortunately for movie fans, the studios didn't give up on the home theater market, so we get treated to better sound mixes at home than the theaters can deliver.

I'm sure it's a shining example of how much I don't know about running a movie theater, but if I did, I would be advertising the hell out of the technical capabilities of my screens at every turn. Digital Sound and Digital Projection trailers would be run before every show, the theater's policy trailer would impress, and everyone would know that the experience at my theater blows the socks off anything they could possibly install in their home!

Unfortunately, it seems to be in the business, all that has to be put to the wayside in favor of making sure that there's room for more advertising crap in the lobby and that there are at least 20 minutes' worth of ads before the movie begins.

Grrr, I told you this was a sore subject...
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-23-2010, 03:25 PM:
 
I think the problem with mediocre or bad movie theater sound rests largely with the big wigs operating most movie theater chains. As long as the sound system is working they're happy. They're not interested in how well the sound system is working. There is a cookie-cutter philosophy at work. A lot of the same kinds of speaker enclosures, amps, etc. are put into auditoriums of various sizes. The sound system isn't really designed and tailored for a specific room. The gear is just cobbled together and however it sounds is however it's going to sound.

When the right combination of speakers, amps and other gear is chosen for a room and it is properly set up (EQ-ed, "tuned", etc.) the results can be very impressive.

This was supposed to be the point of THX. But the THX philosophy really began to rapidly erode with the arrival of stadium seating. It was already bad enough that some theaters would have a THX-certified house with Dolby SR optical and then stick DTS in a different room ("we can't put two gimmicks in the same house"). Some theater executives had no better understanding of sound systems and audio tracks than the customers even though it was part of their job to know better. Oh well. I think the THX folks also watered down their requirements in order for many stadium seated houses to fall within the spec. The funny thing is most theater chains chose to incorporate stadium seating instead of THX.

Theater managers and staff members can be culprits in goofing up a theater's sound. They need to notice and take action when parts of a theater's sound system need adjustment or repair even if no one in the audience notices. The higher ups need to be willing to fund sound system repairs if they're needed. And the popcorn jockey or whoever else doesn't need to be farting with any of the knobs when a theater has already been properly tuned.

Finally, some of the customers are to blame for goofed up theater sound. When I see a movie in a commercial theater I expect dynamic and even startling levels of sound. Unfortunately, certain people prefer movie audio dynamics to be on par with their old TV set at home. So the manager ends up having to turn down the fader. Score another point for home theater where you can set the audio however loud you want it. With sub-standard theater construction and/or maintenance the sub-bass speakers may be turned down very low to eliminate sound leakage between auditoriums or the subwoofers may have blown and stayed broken for months on end.

 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-23-2010, 09:23 PM:
 

quote:

---

I would be advertising the hell out of the technical capabilities of my screens at every turn. Digital Sound and Digital Projection trailers would be run before every show, the theater's policy trailer would impress, and everyone would know that the experience at my theater blows the socks off anything they could possibly install in their home!

---

I too don't understand why theatres don't advertise their sound systems on marquees, on the screen or wherever. We played all 4 of the different DTS logos, and when we switched to Dolby we started using the Dolby "Train" logo. We have run a sound logo on nearly every show since we went stereo, beginning with the "Ultra Stereo" logo. I hear the Dolby "Train" is not available for digital cinema....bad Dolby, bad Dolby!!

We also use a Dolby logo on our marquee, but we have a triangular marquee with 2 reader boards and we only have ONE logo. Do you think Dolby will send us another one? They will not. I've sent in their form, I've emailed with no response, etc. I'm sure it's because of our one-screen size, but it's still irritating to be ignored.

So there are theatres out there willing to advertise what they've got, but a little help from the manufacturers would be nice.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-23-2010, 09:34 PM:
 

quote:

---

I hear the Dolby "Train" is not available for digital cinema....bad Dolby, bad Dolby!!

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quote: Scott Jentsch

---

They couldn't be bothered to run the digital sound trailers before the movie, so the audience wasn't even being educated about what it was that they were hearing. A major marketing opportunity lost, but I was told that the theater couldn't be bothered splicing on a digital sound trailer, and then have to change it if they had to move the film to another screen.

---

Try working for a theater that put a Dolby Digital trailer on every print, even if the print only contained an optical track, and when you bring it to the booth manager's attention, his response is, "Oh, that just advertises that we have Dolby Digital in every house, it doesn't necessarily mean this film is Dolby Digital. We use that because we don't have policy trailers."

quote: Bobby Henderson

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Finally, some of the customers are to blame for goofed up theater sound. When I see a movie in a commercial theater I expect dynamic and even startling levels of sound. Unfortunately, certain people prefer movie audio dynamics to be on par with their old TV set at home.

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quote: Ken Lackner

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in terms of customer service, what else are you supposed to do when a customer complains that it is too loud and asks if you can turn it down?

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Hand them ear plugs.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-25-2010, 10:57 AM:
 
The problem is twofold.

#1 Poorly designed and/or calibrated sound systems
#2 Playing trailers at the feature's fader level

EITHER will generate those "its too loud" complaints.

I run my trailers at 4.0 with no surrounds or subwoofer and feature at 7.0 I've done this for almost 20 years. As a result the more sensitive/complaint-prone customers don't get blasted from the second the movie starts, and they are happy.

Bad or poorly tuned sound systems on the other hand are going to generate complaints at all but low volumes.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-25-2010, 11:12 AM:
 
It might be better if you run the feature with the surrounds and the subwoofer turned on.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-25-2010, 11:54 AM:
 
Post edited for clarity.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-25-2010, 11:55 AM:
 
Yeah, I was wondering what kind of magical system provides Brad Miller-quality sound without the use of subs or surrounds!

quote: Brad Miller

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Mike, Dolby has a "Dolby Digital Cinema" logo for people who use Dolby servers

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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Somebody needs to come up with a generic "This cinema features digital sound" trailer...

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quote: Ken Lackner

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I agree with you in that it's a movie theater; it's supposed to be loud. However, in terms of customer service, what else are you supposed to do when a customer complains that it is too loud and asks if you can turn it down?

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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Somebody needs to come up with a generic "This cinema features digital sound" trailer, so a print could be moved between different auditoriums and not be "wrong."

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Certainly some sort of audio trailers are needed for digital cinema, or at the very least the audio portion of the presentation needs to be mentioned somehow in the digital projection snipe. It might be too technical for most customers to see "24-bit 48 kHz 5.1 LPCM" but they might understand "high quality uncompressed 5.1 digital sound."

No one in the movie industry has figured out that one yet. Just look the end credits of any Hollywood feature for proof. You'll still see logos for lossy Dolby Digital, DTS and SDDS included, but no mention of superior LPCM multichannel in D-cinema shows -or even D-cinema for that matter. With Dolby's brand name strength one would think at least their D-cinema and digital 3D systems would get some sort of mention.
 

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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-25-2010, 01:36 PM:
 
I once worked at a theater that played the trailers in format 04 with the fader at something like 4 or 5. I had a customer complain about the quality of the sound, that it wasn't in digital and there were no surrounds. Grrrr! You can please all people some of the time, or some people all the time, but you just can't please all people all the time!

Personally, I think playing trailers in digital (ONLY if the feature is going to be in digital), with surrounds, but no sub, around 4.5 or 5, would be better. Just my $.02.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-25-2010, 07:43 PM:
 
I was doing it Brad's way before I even met Brad, so I claim ownership!!
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-25-2010, 07:59 PM:
 
Ken, with some processors (such as the CP500 and CP200), that is effortlessly done. (Just beware with the CP500 there is no way to get it to automatically default to analog if there is a dropout.)

With digital cinema, it is obviously digital stage channels.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-25-2010, 08:38 PM:
 
Let's talk about the marketing of 7.1; tonight here in the New York market (we are not talking chump change here), they are running a barrage of TV ads for TOY STORY 3. Do you see any mention of the spanking new 7.1 Surround format?



Now if the studio isn't marketing this format, how can it be taken seriously? As for the public, there has got to be a saturation point. You can't hype a new sound format every few years and still think it can be effectivly marketed to make a difference to Joe Moviegoer, especially when there is only a fairly subtle difference between Left, Right Surround and Left Center Right Surround and now 7.1 Surround that will be very difficult for an audience to distinguish between them. I mean, it's not like walking into a theatre just outfitted to play EARTHQUAKE in Sensurround.

quote: Bobby Henderson

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It's a tricky situation for any theater staff member to face. He can agree to turn down the fader to satisfy that one customer's complaint, but he will risk annoying many others in the process.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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I've heard lots of stories about angry, confrontational customers. I don't envy the manager or staff member who has to deal with a customer demanding a lower volume level and doing so angrily.

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quote: Ron Curran

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The end credits do mention Mixed in 7.1 after the audience has left the building and arrived home.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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the sound format logos (and other info like "1-800-PHONE-THX") at the end of the movie's end credits are completely useless to commercial movie theater audiences. Indeed, the audience has left the building.

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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They ought to put that stuff at the beginning of the movie, just before the studio logo. "Presented in DIGITAL SURROUND SOUND at quality theaters." Then put all three digital sound providers' logos across the bottom. Of course, many projectionists would just cut that off.

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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They ought to put that stuff at the beginning of the movie, just before the studio logo. "Presented in DIGITAL SURROUND SOUND at quality theaters." Then put all three digital sound providers' logos across the bottom. Of course, many projectionists would just cut that off.

---

The sound could be different for each of the sound formats (with the analogue mix sounding pathetic).

This would not get round the fact that good SR can sound better than bad digital (if the system is not setup well).
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-27-2010, 10:50 AM:
 
You know who else is to blame? Dolby. They won't send out the tags any more. I tried to order some a little over a year ago, but like so many other people, I found out that they did not seem interested in marketing and won't send anything.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-27-2010, 01:15 PM:
 
DTS and THX trailers were common on a lot of DVDs. Dolby Digital trailers weren't used nearly as much even though Dolby had a lot more trailers for Dolby Digital. I don't think any of my Blu-ray discs have any sound format trailers.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-27-2010, 07:04 PM:
 
Years ago I got my hands on an awesome JBL logo snipe touting their theatre speakers with great graphics and sound and the speaker systems of all channels are shown in a fly-over the theatre auditorium. Now, sound format logo snipes have been around since Dolby Stereo; ah, for the simpler days -- it was either mono or it was Dolby Stereo and none of the alphabet soup that was to follow....A, SR, SRS, THX, CDS, DTS, SRD, SDDS, EX etc., with each touting its horn with a logo snipe to promote it. But I have never seen a snipe before or since that hyped a theatre speaker system.

Unfortunately, our theatre complex in non-profit and jointly under city and state law so when the large theatre was refurbished and the sound system had to be replaced, the speaker system had to go to low bid, which was....wait for it: ElectroVoice --you know, their their highly respected cinema line of speakers The EV boxes replaced the JBLs and very different sound quality ensued (talk amongst yourselves).

So of course I can no longer run that sweet logo snipe for JBL theatre speaker systems. EV doesn't have anything comparable to the JBL snipe....nor anything comparable to JBL's speakers either, come to think of it .

Anyone here ever run (or even seen) the JBL snipe run in any commercial theatre?

Another question; did 4track mag ever have its own logo and/or a trailer to promote it? I have never seen it stated as such either on one sheets and I don't even think they made reference to it in the film credits when it was used. I guess in those days, the huge CinemaScope logo was supposed to be de facto 4trk mag stereo....until it wasn't.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-27-2010, 07:15 PM:
 
Actually, the Fox Fanfare had the "CinemaScope Extension" for CinemaScope titles and, in the beginning, all CinemaScope features were 4-track.

The realities are that there is little point, at this stage, for Dolby to promote their film sound systems. That race is over. How many more systems would Dolby sell (or Datasat) due to the snipes being run?

Steve
 

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Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 06-27-2010, 07:29 PM:
 
I remember seeing the JBL snipe at Grauman's Chinese Theater in Hollywood, but not recently.
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 06-27-2010, 08:30 PM:
 
Although the new Titan Extreme Cinema system at Reading's Consolidated Ward 16 in Honolulu sucked big time, I was very impressed with the new sound system with Dolby 7.1 when I saw TOY STORY 3 there the other day. The auditorium had seven speakers on both the left and right walls, four in the rear, as well as three or more speakers behind the screen with the super subwoofers. In addition to all of that,, there were seven speakers on the left side of the ceiling and seven more on the right extending from the front of the auditorium to the rear. The Dolby 7.1 trailer sounded great but I could not detact any sound coming from the ceiling or the rear.

-Claude
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-27-2010, 10:27 PM:
 
Once again, 7.1 does not use any kind of "ceiling sound".
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-27-2010, 11:03 PM:
 
I suppose one reason why sound format trailers have fallen out of favor is digital surround sound is common to many movie theaters and millions of people have 5.1 or 7.1 setups in their homes. There is nowhere near as much novelty to it as there was 10 or 20 years ago. A lot more than just flagship class theaters in the biggest cities have it.

Nevertheless there is a relevant need for the trailers and other materials to educate the public about it. Many people don't know how to get their home theater systems properly connected and adjusted. I'm going to help a friend of mine get his new home theater system working properly sometime this week.

quote: Claude S. Ayakawa

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The Dolby 7.1 trailer sounded great but I could not detact any sound coming from the ceiling or the rear.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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The main purpose for having four surround channels instead of two is so surround panning effects will work better for much more of the audience.

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quote: Frank Angel

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Another question; did 4track mag ever have its own logo and/or a trailer to promote it? I have never seen it stated as such either on one sheets and I don't even think they made reference to it in the film credits when it was used. I guess in those days, the huge CinemaScope logo was supposed to be de facto 4trk mag stereo....until it wasn't.

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quote: Joe Redifer

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Oh, how I loved the days when trailers were mono.

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They still can be. What do you think that the "01" button does?

In a modern multiplex, I do something similar to what Brad does. Trailers play without subwoofer in SR (assuming that they are modern trailers mixed for SR) at 4.5, then features play in SRD at 6.5-7.0. In theatres without digital sound (or--gasp!--mono houses), I just play the trailers a few notches lower than the feature. Problem solved.
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 06-28-2010, 09:42 PM:
 
Manny, I've been looking at that error for weeks now. Glad someone else said something.

Pedantically yours.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 06-29-2010, 12:00 AM:
 
Manny, thanks too. That has been making me nuts since the thread started.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-29-2010, 07:49 AM:
 
One of two things will fix the too damn loud trailers. 1) good automation that you can program to follow Scott and Brad's format down-ticking to SR or even mono for the trailers or, if the automation is really good, let it adjust the level of the trailer pack to a lower volume than the feature (are there automation systems sophisticated enough to be able do that?) and 2) a projectionist who stays with the show until the feature starts and who can make those adjustments, even from trailer to trailer if necessary.

And Joe is right -- 1db a year? WTF?! If the effin things are too loud, they are too loud. What's the point of a trailer that is obviously too loud but let's not remix it so it matches standard feature average levels, let's just reduce it, not low enough so that it isn't too loud, but just 1db so we can say we did. And let's wait ten years and then we'll drop it another 1db and it will still too loud. What's the purpose of reducing trailer levels by some ridiculously small increment? How come features don't have levels that vary all over the place? Because they have a reference and they mix to that.

The reason trailers are much hotter is because the studios WANT them mixed that way. The studio is trying to SELL its product, and if they think mixing trailers louder than the way features are mixed, they will do it, and on purpose.

quote: Manny Knowles

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Trailers that exceed the numerical upper limit have to be remixed.

---

And a studio or its trailer production company is going to go thru the cost of remixing when they wanted it to sound louder to begin with? It's the fox guarding the hen house. That's like telling your teenager to turn down the hip-hop blaring in his room and so he drops it 1db. What's the incentive to keep them from mixing hot or with heavy compression (easy way to make it sound annoyingly loud without necessarily kicking up the actual level) so that they get what they want -- a mix that gets the attention. You can bet they are not exactly worried about a few auntie Millies or uncle Festers getting annoyed.

I don't see any incentive for them to not keep on doing exactly what they are doing, TASA not withstanding. You want it to change? Then the exhibitor has to get some backbone and say, any trailer that sounds louder than the feature won't get on the screen; period. THAT would get them to keep trailer levels normal a lot quicker than the TASA program has or probably ever will.

Re: Chanel (Live the Fantasy) -- come on guys, that header typo has been with us now for 13 pages....it's almost like an old friend; why change it now?
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-29-2010, 09:53 AM:
 
Regarding automations that can adjust volumes mid show...

Pennywise CA21/EMK-1
Panalogic CA2000
Eprad/Strong, eCNA/CNA-200

Other automations could often trick older cinema processors into using an alternate fader (like the remote fader on Dolby processors...USL actually had a terminal for reducing the volume on trailers too).

Sony SDDS3000 could "memorize" volume levels based on title so each trailer could have its own volume level and different from the feature.

With DCinema...one can often alter the volume as much as they want, depending on your actual SMS and equipment's ability to work with such commands (most can, now).

Steve
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-29-2010, 11:47 AM:
 
I have our system set up to start the show at 4.0 (Dolby) and when the feature starts, I change it to 6.0. I would think the same could be done in a multiplex with a little effort -- unless the booth is being run by people who just rush in, push the start button and then head back to the lobby.

I don't give a crap about meters, test equipment, TASA or anything else; trailers ARE louder than they should be. The overall volume might have been lowered, but the mixing of them is what makes them sound too loud.

I don't mind the trailers having all the surround effects and so on, but if they are kept to a decent (lower) volume, the movie will "outshine" them just by virtue of being nice and loud compared to the trailers.

Also to those griping about the two typos in the header: I believe the only one who can change that now is a moderator, due to the inability for us poor members edit a post after 30 minutes or 30 seconds or whatever the time limit is.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-29-2010, 12:05 PM:
 
With respect to automated fader changes, the easiest way is with the CP500. As long as your automation system can pulse it into at least two different formats, just set up one trailer format (I call mine "user 5"--copy of 05, no auto-digital, subwoofer disabled) and assign a fader setting to it. Set up another format for the feature (typically 10), and cue the film to pulse that format at feature start. I don't remember if the CP650 can assign fader settings to formats--I have not used one in an automated house.

Steve--does automation come along for the ride with all D-cinema installs, or are some of them manually operated? I still have not operated a modern DCI setup....
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-29-2010, 12:21 PM:
 
Scott...pretty much. They all seem to have a form of "I/O" for low-tech controls as well as RS-232 and varying degrees of Ethernet.

As such, one can automate as much as they want. There are various solutions out there that will take the GPIO or RS232 and turn that into relay closures and such to deal with lighting, masking, life-safety stuff...etc. You can spend as much or just about as little as you want with either canned or flexible solutions.

When it comes to fader settings...Dolby has definitely put "hooks" in so that if a CP650 or CP750 is connected on the "Auditorium Network" the volume is settable in the DCinema show and is also available for on-the-fly changes right on the front of the control screen.

Steve
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-29-2010, 02:18 PM:
 
The CP650 can assign independent volume levels to individual buttons. My automation cannot pule into any of the user formats, so I took buttons 01 and 04 and changed them to do what I want. 01 is for trailers and plays at 4.2 (but still assigned to Dolby Digital). Then it pulses into 10 which is usually around 6.6 or 6.7. Never a complaint. Then for some auditoriums I pulse into 04 when the credits start to stay in Dolby Digital lower the volume to about 5.5 or so. That way the credit music doesn't blast into the auditorium directly behind it as people leave.

With our CP65 and CP200 houses I manually adjust the volume for the trailers and feature each time. The only time we ever get a complaint is when I am not there and the trailers run at the 6.6 - 7.0 that I had the knob set at for the feature before I left. I know this because when I come back a few days later, the volume knob is cranked down to about 5 and the feature is really quiet.
 

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Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 06-29-2010, 03:49 PM:
 
I too run the trailers in the area of 4 and the feature around 7. We run art films, so very few explosions and still the trailers are mixed LOUD. Sometimes the difference between trailers is so great as to be evident even to the indifferent audience. We always check trailer and volume levels and set them to comfortable speech level. That can be a problem when you have muttering British films, but usually works.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-29-2010, 08:14 PM:
 
OR.....I worked in a theatre -- big old single screen in Austin TX -- that had a fader control in the back of the house in an enclosed wall box. Believe it or not, it was selsyn-ed to the booth fader. The manager could easily adjust the level without even calling up the booth. But again, that predicates the presense of an actual, attentive biped which we all know are in rare supply in the plexed multies.

I was a green newbee when I first encounterd that particular setup. I would always kick up the opening of the WB cartoon -- to compensate for the curtain being closed and attenuating the audio for part of that opening WB logo. Same with the Fox logo and the Fanfare and CinemaScope extension music; beside curtain or not, that always needs a little kick in the ass....make the audience pay attention.

After a few shows, when I did my volume adjust thing on the WB cartoon, I saw the fader back down ON ITS OWN. Then came the Fox Logo and CinemaScope Extension music which again, I kicked up only to see that fader go right back down again. I couldn't believe my eyes -- this time I grabbed the fader and felt it trying to fight me. I was beside myself....perhaps weed does rot your brain, thought I. I think the manager knew the newbee was on and was just playing with me. Someone should have video taped the look on my face as I tried to fight the fader knob with two hands from going back down after I turned it up. The chief projectionist had a good laugh. I think he put the manager up to it too.
 

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Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 07-11-2010, 01:36 PM:
 
so aside from the upcoming Step Up 3D, has there been any new news what other future films will be released in 7.1 discrete sound??
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-11-2010, 03:03 PM:
 
Joe, on my 35mm shows I still run in 01. Since there is no way Dolby has permitted to run the SR or digital tracks without surround or sub, 01 it is! Just about everyone I know with CP650s uses the 01 button (not re-programmed, but running true mono) for their trailers. Most if not all agreed they would rather have the SR noise reduction or play off of the digital track, but all agree if Dolby won't provide the option, screw it.

More recently I have found a way around the issue for those who for whatever reason just HAVE to run with SR noise reduction or off of the digital tracks. Assuming you have QSC amps, you can short pin 2 (I think it is pin 2...typing this from memory) to ground to put the amp into standby mode.

Standby mode = no audio Voila problem solved!

I even was able to persuade the wonderful Sam at QSC to manufacture little connectors to go onto the end of the dataport cables to provide a termination point, rather than cut into the cables, to resolve this very issue. It has an official part number now, but I would have to look it up. (Sam can tell you.)

We (Film-Tech) are using the infinitely flexible and far superior sounding BASIS systems for 99% of our audio processing needs with digital cinema, but for that remaining 1% where we tied into CP650s, the QSC connectors work like a champ to kill those surrounds and subwoofers for digital cinema installations. Just get one for each amp you want turned off and daisy chain them.

to stupid trailer mixing and levels!
 

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Posted by Manny Montes (Member # 5639) on 07-12-2010, 05:18 AM:
 
All trailers at my plex run in SR and lower than the feature, haven't had a complaint yet about trailers being too quiet. It sucks when it misses the feature cue though, runs too low, thankfully staying on top of replacing old cues makes sure that it never happens
 

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Posted by David Stone (Member # 4846) on 07-15-2010, 07:12 PM:
 
Hi Everyone,

As the only theater in Sydney to install 7.1, I have found the investment to pay off 10 fold. Our box office results have been terrific, public response highly favourable, and the distributor BVI reports that our box office results have been impressive beating a big number of major multiplexes across the nation, not bad for a single screen opposite a major multipex.
The old story you must spend money to make it is sure true for me,

David.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-16-2010, 12:59 AM:
 
Unfortunately our awesome automations that we have for the CP65 and CP200 houses only allow switching to digital or back to non-sync.
 

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