Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Automation won't accept 2nd cue

This is topic Automation won't accept 2nd cue in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=010456

Posted by Celine Negrete (Member # 5531) on 05-05-2010, 11:37 PM:

We just installed a Xetron Maxi 12X/PC. We have an intermission snipe at the end of our first 6k reel (our booth has no room for a platter or 2nd projector). We have the automation set up so that we place four Optitape cues in advance of the intermission snipe to mute the intermission snipe soundtrack (it is just too 'jarring'...we like the visual but we don't like the sound).

The snipe is ~14 seconds long.

We place three cue tapes for end of show shutdown. But, on the reel with the intermission snipe, the automation system works fine in muting the snipe but does not read the shutdown cues.

On the final 6k reel (that has no intermission snipe, obviously), the shutdown cues work perfectly.

In fact, I tested it today and removed the 'mute cue' for the intermission to see if it would now read the shutdown cue, and sure enough it did! Why can't I get it to read both? Is there a minimum amount of time that must pass before the automation will accept a 2nd cue set? I looked at the manual but I couldn't find any information that would help.

Any help appreciated!

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-05-2010, 11:51 PM:

quote: Celine Negrete
Is there a minimum amount of time that must pass before the automation will accept a 2nd cue set?

Most likely that's your issue. I have no idea what the minimum time between cues on your automation but most of them have some time delay to avoid the possibility of a cue wearing down and getting read as two cues instead of just one.

Posted by Celine Negrete (Member # 5531) on 05-06-2010, 12:08 AM:

Thanks, I had a feeling that might be where this is heading...but, that is not what I wanted to hear :-(

I guess I could 'play' with it. Try adding a wee bit of black at the start of the intermission snipe to see if I can get it past that minimum. But, if it requires 60 seconds, or something like that, then manual end of reel shut down it will be!

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 05-06-2010, 12:18 AM:

So when do we see the finished shots? Adding the black sounds like a good idea.

Posted by Celine Negrete (Member # 5531) on 05-06-2010, 12:29 AM:

Hey Cameron! We have our photographer coming Friday morning so something should be up soon thereafter.

Thanks for asking...It looks beautiful!

And, hoping a few seconds of black will work!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-06-2010, 12:35 AM:

my suspicion is that the timing cam must cycle

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 05-06-2010, 12:37 AM:

Hi Celine.

What mode do you have your automation set for? e.g Random or Sequential?

I'm only guessing here, but by the sound of it yours may be set to RANDOM which counts the number of foils and pulses the corresponding matrix line.

Perhaps you could try going SEQUENTIAL which uses 1 foil per matrix cue point.

This way, you would not only cut down on the number of foils to put on a print, but possibly free up more cue points on the matrix for your shutdown sequence.

Any ideas on this, guys?

Posted by Celine Negrete (Member # 5531) on 05-06-2010, 12:50 AM:

Hi Ian,

I didn't set the automation system up, but after taking a look at the manual, I thought the 'random' and 'sequential' might come into play.

Right now, with a 2 1/2 hour film needing to be on three 6ks, and two intermissions, I am using a total of seventeen pieces of foil cues!

I can ask our tech tomorrow if moving to sequential might be a solution. It isn't the end of the world if we must manually shutdown the first 6k, as we have never had automation before (it was installed last week). But, I am rather liking the 'consistency' of how it works, everything starting and stopping at exactly the same time in the same manner. With five different staff members operating the booth, it makes for a more clean presentation.

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 05-06-2010, 01:02 AM:

Sounds like you want it set up for Random not Sequential since you have 4 cues (intermission) before 3 cues for end of show.

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 05-06-2010, 02:05 AM:

Hey Celine!

If all else fails you might try putting a projectionist in the booth. Looking forward to the photos.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-06-2010, 02:38 AM:

Sequential should work fine. Just put the MUTE cue before the shutdown cue on every reel, even the last one. No harm in that. If it is still a timing issue even in sequential I am betting there is something somewhere that can be adjusted to get around that, though I wouldn't poke around it if you didn't know what you were doing.

I really hate the Xetron Maxi 12PC automation. So many cues that must be placed in the image area and they do not peel off easily at all. They are distracting onscreen and they can damage film. Please be sure to put a piece of clear splicing tape on the film and put the cue on top on the tape.

Posted by Celine Negrete (Member # 5531) on 05-06-2010, 11:07 AM:

Robert, a projectionist in the booth, as in someone completely dedicated to running the booth...not an option. We are a 62-seat art house with one staff member at a time working the whole shebang ;-)

But, like I said earlier, not a huge deal to not be able to cue the shutdown if it came to that, as the staff member needs to be there to change reels anyhow, so they are usually in the booth at that time. I just got so excited about everything being timed perfectly that I wanted all the cues to work.

Joe, I hear you regarding the placement and visibility of the cues. But, it is the piece of equipment we have to work with. I heard about using splicing tape first then the cue tape over it and I have been doing that. At least we don't use yellow splice tape for reel changes ;-)

I am committed to doing everything I can that I have control over to make the presentation top notch. Will try your suggestion regarding sequential and the mute cue on every reel. Thanks!!

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-06-2010, 12:20 PM:

deleted ..

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 05-06-2010, 02:00 PM:

Actually Celine, I meant at shutdown time. I'd love to see your place as I am planning an 80 seat mini cinema. I used to be an I.A.operator in a number of west coast cities including Sacramento (even when I was a theatre owner). Automation, of course, has eliminated most of those jobs. Good for you for striving for top notch performances. The public WILL notice.

Posted by Celine Negrete (Member # 5531) on 05-06-2010, 02:34 PM:

Stop by anytime you find yourself down this way, Robert!

Since our booth is within 10 feet of our concession stand, which is within 10 feet of the auditorium, we can be in the booth within seconds (we can hear the projector from the concession stand when it is running). So, ultimately, manual shutdown is not a problem. But, I wanted to understand why I couldn't make it work w/automation.

Thanks for the suggestions! Looking into it today.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-06-2010, 02:42 PM:

sequential should work out just fine if not better (def easier than putting 17 peices of foil on a print). Think if it as 4 seperate shows instead of one show with 4 intermissions.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-06-2010, 03:15 PM:

We ONLY use the random setting.

A key is to identify the "most used" cues. These you will designate as 1 or 2 or 3 cue strips.

As far as "showing on the screen," with a little forethought, (and with a reduced number of usual cues) they can fit on the frame line for flat or in a fade or at a scene change. Louis

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-06-2010, 04:30 PM:

I like "random" automations like the ta-10 where you are only putting small cues on the film on the frame line. Where you have to put more than one peice of cue tape across a whole frame is crazy in my opinion.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 05-06-2010, 05:41 PM:

I think Chris probably has it: the cues are too close together. But I would think 14 feet would be enough. I don't think operating in sequential vs random will make a difference as the same resistor/ capacitor timing is used for both, but it's worth a try. Perhaps adding a few feet of black at the end of the intermission snipe will get the required time for the next cues to work.

When I was working on those, I found that each cue 'group' (1 to 8) must be within 750ms of each other. After that, the counter thinks there will be no more cues and toggles the selected relay. That is why I'm surprised it's not working for Celine. But, I never thought to test how close each group could be. The Maxi 12 doesn't have a cam timer; it's all IC's.

I think the circuit is actually a little clever. It's basically a serial to parallel kinda thing. Louis is right; a little forethought will reduce cues onscreen. How else would someone design a cue system with eight functions that's easy to apply? I'm sure Joe would agree, but his back still bothers him from lifting that Simplex! [Smile]

Celine, if you send me an email address, I will send you a newer Maxi12 manual than the one posted here. It doen't have any additional info for this cue issue, but is much better for general servicing.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-06-2010, 06:12 PM:

quote: John Walsh
Celine, if you send me an email address, I will send you a newer Maxi12 manual than the one posted here. It doen't have any additional info for this cue issue, but is much better for general servicing.

Why not shoot it to Brad instead so that it actually makes its way onto the website?

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 05-06-2010, 06:53 PM:

No problem, but this way she can get it quicker.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-06-2010, 07:41 PM:

I think John that possibly having multiple peices of foil cause the actual cue to be longer in length than it has to be maybe if the cues were a little shorter adding more time between them the extra second or two could allow enough time for the cam timer to cycle.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-06-2010, 08:36 PM:

quote:
Right now, with a 2 1/2 hour film needing to be on three 6ks, and two intermissions, I am using a total of seventeen pieces of foil cues!

..wonder if someone can find her a double MUT, or an old CINE 2x or 4x reel tower then so one film can sit on a 13k reel and that would get rid of the "forced" intermissions, if her booth has limited spacing..

..or find a way where a platter system can be used down in the conc area and the film, via rollers, can head into the booth to the machine...

some thoughts ... - good luck - Monte

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-07-2010, 12:33 AM:

I believe a SWORD was offered on this site already

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-07-2010, 12:41 AM:

quote: Sean McKinnon
I like "random" automations like the ta-10 where you are only putting small cues on the film on the frame line. Where you have to put more than one peice of cue tape across a whole frame is crazy in my opinion.

I like "random" in the fact that the cue can tell the automation what to do, but honestly sequential is best. A cue should never have to go in the image area, there's no way to prevent it from showing up onscreen unless you only play flat movies at your theater. Ideally it would reside on the inboard side (non-soundtrack) of the film on the SDDS track. The automation should be able to change the sequence easily and quickly, like the CA-21. And as long as we're at it, the cue detector should go ABOVE the projector, not below it. This would allow for frame-accurate cues. Want the cue to trigger when this exact frame is onscreen? No problem, just put a cue on that frame and it will! The cue detector would have a time delay like a digital reader. No more of this "counting back 18 feet from the last frame", that's just stupid.

Posted by Celine Negrete (Member # 5531) on 05-07-2010, 01:07 AM:

Yes, Monte...we looked into a double MUT or reel tower, but too be honest, with the rewind table, the projector platform that was built in, and the tiny bit of storage for vacuum and ladder, I have all of about 3' by 5' left available of floor space. With either of those items in the booth, the booth would become unusable. Believe me, we consulted our supplier about it.

Hey Joe, I only have to go back ~3 ft to place my cues. The distance is marked on the rewind table so it makes it pretty easy to place them.

But, yes, yes, yes to the wishing it didn't show on screen. I see EVERYTHING, and even though I realize most of the audience doesn't notice some of the details we are referring to, I want our presentation to be up to the standards of most projectionists. Not the average audience member's standards. But, at this location (a converted store-front) I do the best with what we have. If we build a new location from scratch, our booth will be primo!!! ;-)

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-07-2010, 01:54 AM:

On the cues, could you place them on the frame lines so they wouldn't be so noticable, esp how thick "opticues" are?

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-08-2010, 12:28 PM:

I havw never worked with the ca 21 but the strong cna-200 uses sequential cues that can be programmed to perform any function via the computerized control screen (or from an external laptop that is connected to the system) Unfortunately they ruined it with the whole cue learn thing I think if they just left it where you could program each individual step without having to learn the cues they would have had a winner.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-08-2010, 12:52 PM:

I think you can disable that stupid cue learn nonsense.

Of course the proper solution is to throw them all in the dumpster and replace them with CA21s.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-08-2010, 02:56 PM:

Sean...if you LEAVE it in cue learn...it will function just like ANY sequential automation.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-08-2010, 03:07 PM:

+100 on the cue learn. It has to stay on, for if not, it shuts down the sensor and will eventually shut down the system due to missed cues after a certain timeout.

Not familiar with CNA-200 units, but with my dealings with CPA-10's, you get educated and seasoned real good.

-Monte

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-08-2010, 07:30 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Sean...if you LEAVE it in cue learn...it will function just like ANY sequential automation.

unfortunately I can tell from experience that at a commercial 20 screen with many different "Supervisors" operating the booth there is tendency for them to take it out of cue learn or not to engage it. (It's been so long I forget if it stays in cue learn after a power cycle or not)

In theory it is a good idea but in practice causes problems if prints move or when running multiple prints on one screen if the operator forgets to switch programs or forgets to send or relearn the cues... What I DO like is that you can program a show without putting any foil on the print either by running a show in learn mode and standing there and pushing the manual cue button or by entering in the cue times. If i had my own 1 to 3 screen theatre I might consider using this type of automation in that way so that I wouldn't have to put any foil cues on the print.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-08-2010, 09:22 PM:

I leave my Strong automations in SYNC mode all the time so I can have a start cue. Nobody ever shuts off the sync. Just tell them to leave the learn cue thing on, there is no reason to turn it off and it will work better if it is left on. Do not tell trainees about the learn cue button so they will be afraid to touch it.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-09-2010, 12:01 AM:

quote: Sean McKinnon
unfortunately I can tell from experience that at a commercial 20 screen with many different "Supervisors" operating the booth there is tendency for them to take it out of cue learn or not to engage it.

Dang, who's in charge of upstairs if there is so much of this chaos .... ?

quote: Joe Redifer
I leave my Strong automations in SYNC mode all the time so I can have a start cue.

..which you don't need to do since the automation has a default, 7 second delay before it pops the douser open. It begins in "Cue-1" when you hit the "RUN" button. I used to take care of an 8plex that have CNA-100's and they would leave the "SYNC" engaged for this very reason, and have a cue on the splice where the leader joined the film. I told them that if they turned the "SYNC" off and discontinue that cue, the system will then operate as it was designed to do. They learned quickly on this procedure real good.

quote: Sean McKinnon
if the operator forgets to switch programs or forgets to send or relearn the cues...

Gonna ask a newbie question here since I'm not familar with CNA-200's: Can't you just leave the "Cue Learn" engaged and let the system learn cues on its own as the film is passing through the system? I'm basing this off of CPA-10's were we leave the "Cue Learn" on to get the "L" on the display so the system "learns" the cues as film does its first initial pass through the machine.

-Monte

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-09-2010, 10:13 AM:

But I don't want the 7 or 8 second delay. I hate that shit. I like long leaders and I do not like motoring or winding shit down. The platter for each projector is not the same exact length from the projector on each auditorium. There are so many other advantages to using longer leaders as well. Plus, it doesn't NEED to be countdown leader.

Start cues rule. Sync stays on.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-09-2010, 01:50 PM:

I wished they'd been able to do that where I worked previously, but they had more auditoriums than the automation supported for sync loops, plus since I wasn't the one in charge I wasn't gonna go around messing with shit to reprogram the normal cueing setup.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-09-2010, 06:50 PM:

On Strong automations, when Sync is set to 0, it is not synced with anything. So they can all be synced to zero. Want to interlock? Change the sync to 1 or some other stupid number on the affected auditoriums.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-09-2010, 08:40 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
On Strong automations, when Sync is set to 0, it is not synced with anything. So they can all be synced to zero. Want to interlock? Change the sync to 1 or some other stupid number on the affected auditoriums.

That would've come in handy a year or two ago...

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-09-2010, 09:12 PM:

I apologize for not being currently able to give your past self this information.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-10-2010, 03:28 AM:

That's what was nice with Christie's 3Q automation: all cue based and no timers. And if you want to do interlock, flip up the "option 1" on any of the consoles in the network and you got it made.

-Monte

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-10-2010, 03:49 AM:

Were the 3Q automations designed and made by Kelmar? I have a couple of the Christie AM8s (made by Kelmar) and they are pieces of utter shit... but at least they have a "sync" button. [Wink]

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-10-2010, 11:43 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Dang, who's in charge of upstairs if there is so much of this chaos .... ?

The theatre in question I have not worked at in almost ten years I just remember that at the time they opened (before I worked there) they had many problems (Bad switchers, metal shavings from the HVAC ducts imbedded in the millenium's soundhead pinch roller, and automation problems) over time everything got worked out including the automation issues which were almost 100% due to the cna's not being put into cue learn mode. After that though every so often maybe once every 3 to six months a console would get bumped or someon's finger would slip and cue learn would get turned off. The observant people caught it. The thread and walk away type's didn't.

At one point I implemented the same idea as Joe keeping the cna in sync mode so that we could use start cues. It was very effective especially when higher up's directed me to unlock the auto starts (I had locked them out so that the operator had to be there when the machine started) because depending on where the operator had threaded the film they had a tendency to show leader on the screen (one of the reasons I locked out the auto starts) [Roll Eyes]