Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Phantom Cue on trailer "The Grownups"

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Posted by Tom Egbert (Member # 5491) on 06-12-2010, 05:29 PM:

We have a strange thing happening that we have never had before. We have a phantom cue that occurs soon after the beginning of the trailer, "The Grownups". We have an FM-35. It is clean as brand new. We cleaned it thoroughly per the manufacturer's recommendation. When this phantom cue occurs, there is no red flash indicating that a cue was detected. At the end of this problem trailer, there is a foil cue signaling the beginning of the feature, but it gets ignored, luckily, because the phantom cue has already put us in "feature presentation" mode. I watched the foil go through in the right place for the cue detector to pick up, but there was no red flash. This behavior is baffling. Anyone know anything about this kind of thing happening?

Posted by Tom Egbert (Member # 5491) on 06-12-2010, 07:16 PM:

More information: The Grownups is a cue attached to Karate Kid. We have another place where we get a false cue sent to our automation from our FM-35 without any lights blinking near the end of the film. We carefully checked the film and there is absolutely no cue tape on the film. The film is pristine film. If film manufacturers are going to be making film like this that fools cue detectors, what needs to be done?

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 06-12-2010, 08:48 PM:

You say that the FM-35 is new how about the automation? What kind of automation are you using Ta-10?

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 06-12-2010, 09:06 PM:

Is it possible that you've set this up such that one cue is read and then it goes into a countdown/delay before automatically doing another cue? That could explain the bizarre behavior, assuming that you've set it to do this countdown type cue at a time/position when you shouldn't have.

Posted by Tom Egbert (Member # 5491) on 06-12-2010, 10:49 PM:

We have been running fine since we opened in February until this film came along.

Mark Gulbrandsen came and jump started us in February. One of the first things he did was clean our FM-35 and wire it up to our EPRAD Ultimation 2000. It is very reliable.

We started having trouble with Karate Kid. What baffles us is that a signal gets sent to the automation in the same two places every time. There is no cue tape on the film and no detection lights flash on the FM-35 when these false cues are sent. We have removed the cue tape we put on because our automation only accepts four cues. These false cues are additive. We manually handle the lights and the sound where we need to, as in changing between mono and stereo or catching the lights and putting them back where they should be before people detect that something has happened unusual.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-12-2010, 10:58 PM:

Try taking out that particular piece of film to see if the problem remains.
Try that same piece of film in another machine.

IF the problem moves to another machine
THEN
the problem is because of the film

IF the problem still occurs in the suspect machine
THEN
the problem is because of something wrong in the suspect machine and not because of the film.

IF the problem stops and doesn't appear in either machine.
THEN
you must have some sort of operator error that was causing it.

Posted by Tom Egbert (Member # 5491) on 06-12-2010, 11:21 PM:

Something is definitely screwy. I was just thinking that right after the first false cue, which was at the beginning of the trailer that came on the feature, we had placed our own cue tape about 30" before the feature presentation. That cue did not get read after the false cue occurred. I watched it go through, but the red cue detection light did not flash and the cue monitor did not increment the cues. We don't have any automatic cuing set up. I am going to have to think this on over some more. Hmmm

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-12-2010, 11:34 PM:

Interesting. I assembled both of our "KK" prints at our 14 plex and while the build, I inspected the front of the features (since I had to add the feature cue for our 3Q Christie/SPECO failsafes to sense..) and noticed none of any of this incidental cuing situation here on the attached "Grownup" trailers..

Tom, was your print previously screened at another theatre as a sneak of sorts, for this where the possibility of a "dot cue" - a cue that was placed on the film made by a cueing machine that places a 'dot' of tin tape where it's needed. It looks like someone used a paper punch to make this 'dot' out of the foil - was placed on the print and why you're experiencing this issue.

-Monte

Posted by Tom Egbert (Member # 5491) on 06-13-2010, 12:35 AM:

We looked very closely at the film for anything like that in these places, but nothing is there. Again, I need to emphasize, the red cue detection led does not flash when this false cue occurs. That is what is so baffling. But it is 100% reproducible in the same location every time. Other than the one that occurs right after "The Grownups" trailer, the other false cue occurs right after the winning kick at the end of the movie.

Not knowing how the FM-35 is wired, I would think that any time a signal is sent to the automation, the same electrical impulse would trigger the red led to light. But this does not seem to be happening.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-13-2010, 12:52 AM:

I wonder then if you got a small section in that trailer and where the other insident is location if the print itself has a flaw to allow the cue reader to engage then..

What about the other films that you play there with, obviously, none of these occurances comes up?

Posted by Tom Egbert (Member # 5491) on 06-13-2010, 01:20 AM:

Now that you mention it, we started having trouble with cues when we were showing Shrek. Everything went normal as usual. In other words, the sound and the lights all behaved as usual, but when the film ran out of the projector, the alarm would sound. I never took the time to figure that one out. I just figured that the FM-35 probably needed cleaning or something. This dialog is good. It points to a problem that may not be print related, but is somehow triggered at certain places predictably.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 06-13-2010, 01:31 AM:

After your standard cue passes stop the projector and wait as many seconds as the false cue supposedly happens. If the problem is replicated then is something in the automation.
Demetris

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 06-13-2010, 03:09 AM:

quote: Tom Egbert
but is somehow triggered at certain places predictably.

This line points to offset settings. Go through your automation settings and double check your offsets and see if there are any anomalies.

Posted by Michael Wheable (Member # 3327) on 06-13-2010, 03:27 AM:

Your FM35 is on the way out. Had one go a couple of years ago where half way through the film lights came up then few seconds later the show shut. Last bit of trouble we had was when another FM35 was on last legs, didn't like a particular advert as it went through sensor, look at the motion light as it goes through, but as we were about to go Digital it wasn't worth replacing. On automation board we disabled our J14, this bypassed the signal for the projector to stop. Yes, we were taking a chance if something else could go wrong but it was a temp measure

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 06-13-2010, 11:31 AM:

I am not familiar with the ultimation but I am wondering if it uses cam timers? Is it possible that a "Start" relay is getting stuck when you push the start button causing the cam timer to cycle more than once? That would explain why a cue is going off but no lights are showing in the FM-35. It would also explain why it happens in the same spot every show. If your automation uses the old style relays (not the newer little black chips) I would swap your "show start" (or whatever it's called) relay with another automation and see if the problems goes away or follows. Sometimes the action of moving the relay around will cause it to stop sticking. If you are uncomfortable removing the relay try tapping it with the non bristled end of a toothbrush or a pen.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 06-13-2010, 12:24 PM:

If you can't do the suggestion of running the film in a different house, you could try swapping out trailer with something else.

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 06-13-2010, 01:48 PM:

Disconnect the FM-35 from the automation and run the show manually. If the lights go down early or some other function occurs without manual input then you have an automation problem or incorrect setting. If nothing occurs then you have a bad FM-35 unit or possibly an intermittent short in the wiring between the automation and the FM-35.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 06-13-2010, 02:35 PM:

quote: Jeremy Weigel
If nothing occurs then you have a bad FM-35 unit or possibly an intermittent short in the wiring between the automation and the FM-35.

I wouldn't expect an intermittent short to do what he's described since he said that the phantom cue happens at the same exact spot in the trailer pack with a reproducible rate of 100%. I'd expect an intermittent short to send out the cue intermittently.

Posted by Tom Egbert (Member # 5491) on 06-13-2010, 10:06 PM:

Thank you guys for all the feedback. This is great to have such a resource! We have removed all known cue tape that we applied except for one on our black leader. So, now, all the cues that are left are false cues. There are three known false cues. One at the beginning of the new KK film in the Grownups trailer, one near the end of the movie, and one somewhere in the middle of the credits that causes the projector to shut down prematurely with film still in it.

I am leaning toward what Michael suggests. Our FM-35 cue detector is on its way out. I think I failed to mention. At the end of Shrek, our alarm started sounding. We had been running the film flawlessly for a week of more, then near the end of our lease, this alarm. We thought that may have been because it needed cleaning. Well, it is clean as a whistle now, but cleaning did not correct the problem. I think I need to do a Kepner Trego analysis here to keep the facts straight. We just have to remember one thing!!! The cues are sent at the same film location every time. This indicates a problem at the cue detector, not in the automation. And also, remember, the red led that flashes when a piece of foil tape goes through does not flash, but a cue is still sent.

Tom

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-14-2010, 01:51 AM:

That lack of indication makes me wonder why everyone suspects the FM35. If the detector is not activating a relay, as indicated by the associated LED, how could the detector be at fault?

Offhand, I'd be concerned that this whole FM-35 chat might be diverting attention from some other cause.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-14-2010, 02:03 AM:

I agree. Further, we still have not determined whether it is the film or the machine that is at fault. Until you try new, known-good, film in the suspect machine and/or try the suspect film in a known-good machine you might not know where the problem lies at all.

You're basically just guessing.

It is my hunch, the same as the others, that there is a fault in the automation but until you eliminate the first, simplest probable cause (the film) you could be spinning your wheels in the sand, only to spend hours trying to fix the problem and find out the answer really was "that simple."

Do the easy things first. If those don't work, THEN move on to other things. [thumbsup]

Posted by Michael Voiland (Member # 5386) on 06-14-2010, 02:24 AM:

Just as a crazy thought. What type of splicing tape are you using.
And

On your fm35s is the cue tape on the right of the film. They don't read cues to well if the cue tape is on the wrong side of the film.

Just food for thought.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-14-2010, 02:31 AM:

Even though not familar with the FP-35 but wonder if there is a small momboard underneath that has wire tailings from the IC devices on the momboard that are touching ground someplace that is causing the unit to act as its presently doing...

I go from this on experience from those SPECO/3Q failsafes on the Christie where I had a similar situation and it was indeed a wire tailing that was touching the momboard cover behing the failsafe unit causing a grounding out, thus shutting down the system anywhere it wants to.

..another 3 cents worth of info. - Monte

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-14-2010, 06:44 AM:

if it was the fm35 you would see the led light and here the click
i would rule out the fm35 as being the problem and look at the eprad

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 06-14-2010, 10:23 AM:

I'm not familiar with that automation, but just glancing over the manual here on Film-Tech, I see it has a cue learning mode where it will cue the functions even if there is no tape on the film. Sounds like you're in the wrong mode on the automation. Your automation is now programmed to cue based on a certain timeline, not the actual foil cues.

It can't be the failsafe because you said it happens at the exact same spot each time. A faulty wire or ground would happen intermittently.

I would suggest reading the manual and reprogramming the automation so it looks at the cues only.

Rick

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 06-14-2010, 12:20 PM:

quote: Tom Egbert
We have been running fine since we opened in February until this film came along.

Mark Gulbrandsen came and jump started us in February.

huh? Were you having problems before? I don't think Mark carries jumper cables in his Range Rover. [Wink]

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-14-2010, 01:54 PM:

quote: Michael Voiland
On your fm35s is the cue tape on the right of the film. They don't read cues to well if the cue tape is on the wrong side of the film.

A little off topic, but I don't ever have to consider which side the cue is on. The FM35, at least my 3, read(s) them just fine.

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 06-15-2010, 03:33 PM:

please let us know what you found out [uhoh]

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-15-2010, 05:12 PM:

quote: Michael Voiland
On your fm35s is the cue tape on the right of the film. They don't read cues to well if the cue tape is on the wrong side of the film.

quote: Jack Ondracek
A little off topic, but I don't ever have to consider which side the cue is on. The FM35, at least my 3, read(s) them just fine.

The FM-35 uses inductive eddy currents to detect the metal foil cues. It should not have trouble reading through the film as long as there is enough metal to cause a disturbance in the electromagnetic field around the detector.

It uses the same theory of operation as the metal detectors you see old guys walking along the beach with. If a metal detector can find a penny through a foot of water and sand, the FM-35 can find a patch of foil through 140 µm of polyester film.

If your detector is having trouble reading cues off the other side of the film and you can empirically demonstrate this phenomenon your detector has a problem that needs to be fixed.

And, if that is the case, your FM-35 needs to be repaired or replaced.

However... Before you do that, you need to verify that the automation is not messed up and you need to verify that it is not an unseen problem in the film that is causing the malfunction.

Posted by Tom Egbert (Member # 5491) on 06-17-2010, 02:09 PM:

We discovered our problem. We have an EPRAD Ultimation 2000. It has a cue learn sequence. From the time we were left with this beast by our tech, Mark Gulbranson, it was in cue learn mode for every film and time we ran a movie. As long as the automation is in cue learn mode, it is always learning the position of cues, never actually using them. Well, my brother, not knowing this, pressed the cue learn button, thus taking the automation out of cue learn mode. The result is that the automation would run the Karate Kid presentation using the last learned cue sequence, which happened to be Shrek.

To correct, we put the automation back into cue learn mode so that is it ALWAYS reading our cues and not using a stored sequence.

There you have it. We learned something here. I am happy for the experience. We also have a VERY CLEAN FM-35!

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 06-18-2010, 01:23 PM:

Im Sorry Tom if I had realized the Eprad was like a Strong CNA series I may have been able to save you a lot of useless troubleshooting. That cue learn thing is a very common issue with those.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-18-2010, 11:28 PM:

Sean, who do you think makes the CNA series? [Wink]

Posted by Michael Hossen (Member # 4274) on 06-19-2010, 12:58 AM:

I thought it might have been a cue learn thing as I have seen similar things happen with Panalogic Automation. Like Sean, I'm not familiar with the Eprad automation.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-19-2010, 03:16 AM:

Richard wins....he got it first AND he got it just by reading the manual in the Manuals section. Way to go Richard!

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-19-2010, 03:17 AM:

Yea. when I was running STRONG CPA-10 automations, we had to leave the 'cue learn' on, or have the "L" on the display.

Otherwise, that thing would suddenly go shut down on me no matter where with the "missed cues 1,2,3,4" on the display.

Wonder if this is a STRONG requirement from EPRAD, or is this just they way EPRAD had the electronics laid out for their systems.

-Monte

Posted by Tom Egbert (Member # 5491) on 06-19-2010, 10:48 AM:

Well fellows, Richard gets the medal. Thanks for all your comments.

Tom

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 06-21-2010, 03:40 PM:

quote:
Sean, who do you think makes the CNA series? [Wink]

um... Eprad??? [Confused]

It's one of those things I have read or heard before but didn't fully make the connection. I am sure if I had seen the unit it would have been obvious to me. oh well... [Roll Eyes]