Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: SRD vs DTS error rates

This is topic SRD vs DTS error rates in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=010524

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 07-02-2010, 02:58 AM:

I have an SRD auditorium with a bad analog reader. We are heasitant to purchase a replacement because we are expecting one of our other SRD auditoriums to be converted to a digital projector within weeks and we'll swap the part then.

However, I have been getting some minor complaints about sound glitches in the auditorium with the bad analog reader.

My question is whether DTS is a more reliable format than SRD. Would it be worthwhile to take the analog reader from the DTS house and put it in the house with the bad one? Or would I basically be moving the problem from one auditorium to another.

For what it's worth, we do run the most current DTS trailer disk in the DTS house.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-02-2010, 04:20 AM:

quote: Justin Hamaker
My question is whether DTS is a more reliable format than SRD. Would it be worthwhile to take the analog reader from the DTS house and put it in the house with the bad one?

I would, and you're not moving the problem, but eliminating the problem with the analog reader swapout.

Do you have access to fully align the analog reader after it gets fully exchanged?

DTS is more reliable than SR-D for of the simple requirements of a timecode on the film and drive trays that work well to read the discs. Plus, if the SR-D track gets any scratches on it, the error rate will rise, or even head to "F" for fail.

But both work extremely well, so no one can really do a fair comparison since they operate in different ways to create the same analog sound results.

Good luck - Monte

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-02-2010, 04:13 PM:

I'm confused; anything broken is inherently worse than anything fixed. Louis

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 07-02-2010, 06:41 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
I'm confused; anything broken is inherently worse than anything fixed. Louis

Yea, but when some idea like from topic get's in manager head....then word broken don't excist!

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 07-02-2010, 11:12 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
I'm confused; anything broken is inherently worse than anything fixed. Louis

It's just an issue of which digital format is more likely to have drop outs, SRD or DTS. (so which auditorium should get the good analog reader).

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 07-03-2010, 01:03 AM:

Whats wrong with the analog reader?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-03-2010, 02:26 PM:

And I'll say that I bet it's just a bad LED with some dead segments and thats a 20 minute job to properly change out and re-calibrate tone level. Even if it's the pickup it can be swapped out and aligned in less than an hour. There's no reason to be putting on bad presentations over such an important weekend. Makes me wonder if you should bother to go digital at all. Digital equipment has to have normal maintainance at the proper intervals or you'll really be sorry!

Mark

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-03-2010, 05:26 PM:

Mark could be right.. are you sure the reader is bad, and not the LED's? What are the symptoms of the bad analog sound (i.e. what does it sound like?) What brand of reader?

Finally, Mark made the most important point..if your owner thinks that digital is gonna be the cure-all and need no maintenance he is in for a very nasty surprise. If this problem is typical of his attitude you guys better stick with film.

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 07-05-2010, 05:36 PM:

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr
Finally, Mark made the most important point..if your owner thinks that digital is gonna be the cure-all and need no maintenance he is in for a very nasty surprise. If this problem is typical of his attitude you guys better stick with film.

This remembers me to one thing I used to hear, when you out to service some cinema with aged projectionist, and when you talking why proper grounding, wiring etc is so important, they say....it was better when we used tube amps and photocell's [Big Grin]

The more sophisticated equipment, the more complex service and support is, if $100 LED makes problem to replace.....what about rest?

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 07-06-2010, 04:26 AM:

It's frustration how so many on this site like to jump to the conclusion that an owner is cheap or uncaring if they try to find an inexpensive work around to a problem.

This post was not intended to imply the owner of my theatre won't replace the reader. The post was intended to find out if there is a viable alternative before purchasing new parts for a projector that may be retired within weeks.

Complete answers to the question are far more helpful than criticism about how the owner shouldn't be so cheap.

And by the way, that $100 part turns into a much more expensive service call when you include the mileage and time for a tech to come out an do the repair.

For what it's worth, some of the answers did give me enough information to know that even if swapping the part would work, I don't have the tools or training to do the actual work required.

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 07-06-2010, 08:09 AM:

quote: Justin Hamaker
It's frustration how so many on this site like to jump to the conclusion

No, it's frustrating when someone fucking replies to you and asks a question about the problem you have and you don't answer it. Glad you got your analog reader fixed and criticized all the help

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-06-2010, 01:27 PM:

I second what Richard said. [thumbsup]

Justin, if you come on here asking for advice, then are asked follow-up questions, don't answer said questions it leaves the impression that the owner indeed doesn't care about solving the problem.

And the vast majority of owners ARE cheap bastards who don't give a shit about quality presentations or maintaining a booth staff who cares, so your questions on practicality of swapping a reader rather than fixing the problem leaves a bad impression of your owner.

quote: Justin Hamaker
And by the way, that $100 part turns into a much more expensive service call when you include the mileage and time for a tech to come out an do the repair.

And by the way, a theatre that can't shell out anything less than a grand to fix a simple problem which has a direct effect on the quality of their presentations shouldn't be in business in the first place.

The repair of that reader at my STANDARD, non-discount rate would cost around $300 max if I were in your area. Ask your owner how much money in petty cash he wastes on other shit which has no impact on quality of presentation.

I get really pissed off by the attitude that a theatre would rather spends THOUSANDS of dollars on stupid shit like lobby decor than making sure their presentations are the best they can be. [Mad]

Proper maintenance of a complex of film projectors is such a miniscule percentage of a theatre's annual expenditures that this argument is laughable. I ran a four-plex and the percentage for full upkeep of the machines was less than 1/2 of ONE percent!!

Like I said if you guys are thinking digital is gonna solve your problems you are in for a big, expensive surprise.

I would hate to hear you come on this site in a year telling how you lost your job or your theatre went belly-up, because your owner was short-sighted as so many are.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 07-06-2010, 09:08 PM:

We are not thinking Digital will solve all our our problems. And we are not talking for granted that digital equipment will require additional maintenance. In fact, I will be attending a two day training class to learn how to deal with many of the issue that will come up with the digital equipment.

As for the follow-ups: I posted this question on Friday and I had an extremely busy weekend - as I'm sure many in the business did. I was not really able to spend any time investigating the problem further.

What I know about the problem is there is absolutely nothing on the SR channel. I do not have any training or equipment to go much beyond that in testing or trouble shooting.

The problem was first noted during a a call for routine service by a technician a few weeks ago. At that point it was determined that it may not be a major issue unless we received a print with a bad SR-D track, which could then be swapped into another auditorium. It was only in the past week or so that I started receiving some comments - not really complaints - about intermittent sound drop outs for a few seconds. During this time I have had 4-5 different movies play in that auditorium.

Again, because we are expecting to have a projector replaced by a digital projector within weeks, I thought it was at least worth asking if swapping the analog reader from the DTS house was a viable stop-gap measure. The working unit from the retired projector would then be swapped back to the DTS house.

The whole point was about finding a viable short term solution until a permanent fix could be arranged.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-07-2010, 04:34 PM:

quote: Justin Hamaker
As for the follow-ups: I posted this question on Friday and I had an extremely busy weekend - as I'm sure many in the business did. I was not really able to spend any time investigating the problem further.

What I know about the problem is there is absolutely nothing on the SR channel.

Being busy explains a few things, for that is understood we can't all sit be the computer 24/7.

What I highlited would have been a good thing to include in one of your posts. That and the brand of reader.

quote: Justin Hamaker
The problem was first noted during a a call for routine service by a technician a few weeks ago. At that point it was determined that it may not be a major issue unless we received a print with a bad SR-D track, which could then be swapped into another auditorium.

Ok, now that is exactly a sign of the attitude I am referring to. If the problem was found a few weeks ago, why wasn't it fixed then? Or why wasn't the reader swap done then? And who was the genius who determined that it wasn't a major issue? C'mon, WTF? What would you have done if that auditorium got a print with NO digital tracks, or one so badly damaged it wouldn't play?

As a tech I could not in good conscience have left without addressing this one way or another, either by fixing the damn thing, providing a loaner reader, or doing the swap then. BTW, fixing it "a few weeks ago" while the tech was there ultimately costs less than a return call.

quote: Justin Hamaker
Again, because we are expecting to have a projector replaced by a digital projector within weeks, I thought it was at least worth asking if swapping the analog reader from the DTS house was a viable stop-gap measure. The working unit from the retired projector would then be swapped back to the DTS house.

No harm in asking about the swap, I think no one here would argue with the idea in principle, but what you've just told us in this last post raises serious concerns for the thought processes of your upper management. And having to swap it back just creates double the work, and in reality double the labor costs. (actually 4 times since you're removing, installing, removing again and installing again.) This makes absolutely no sense no matter how you look at it.

quote: Justin Hamaker
The whole point was about finding a viable short term solution until a permanent fix could be arranged.

Whereas the point should have been fixing it "a few weeks ago" when it was discovered.

Justin, I am NOT raking YOU personally over the coals, but c'mon, from what I've read in the past you are more professional than this whole thing brings to light. If your boss dropped the ball, say so, and learn from it. Hopefully he will before you do find yourself out of a job when your theatre goes belly-up.

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 07-08-2010, 12:08 AM:

Justin,
call that tech back and make him fix the problem...on his own time and money. what company is it? I just want to make sure not to use them when I do work in your area,

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 07-09-2010, 01:44 AM:

quote: Richard Hamilton
what company is it? I just want to make sure not to use them when I do work in your area

Sorry, I'm not going there. They have always provided us good service and I'm not going to sully someone's reputation unless given very good reason. This to me, does not qualify as a very good reason.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-09-2010, 01:32 PM:

Doesn't qualify as a good reason? Leaving you with a non-functional analog reader? (If it was the digital reader I could excuse that as it is not essential for a presentation.) [thumbsdown]

Honestly, with that statement I have lost all respect for your judgment. And candidly, with that thought process (The idea of not a good enough reason, not the disclosure/non-disclosure of the tech company) if I were your GM/manager you would be fired.

What would qualify as a good reason in your book? [Roll Eyes]

If I ever pulled that shit on a theatre or screening room I would fully expect and deserve to be raked over the coals publicly.

What you seem to not be getting is that the ANALOG SOUND is an ESSENTIAL function to have up and running!!

Like I said before, and I ask you again, what are you going to do when you need to run a film with either analog-only or a damaged digital track? [Confused]

Your theatre and frankly, you too, are definitely showing an attitude of FILM DONE WRONG!!

Simply astounding.

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 07-09-2010, 02:11 PM:

"job security" for me..hehe

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-09-2010, 03:19 PM:

I haven't paid enough attention to this thread to properly give an opinion, but what I can offer are a few facts.

Back in the 90s I managed a theater with exciter lamps and dts. When the supplier ran out of exciter lamps and had them on backorder, I tried to get some from other neighboring theaters, of which they were also on their last bulbs. So when the day came that one blew out, I made the decision rather than to cancel a small auditorium with analog only to pull the exciter lamp out of the dts house. Granted we had to be VERY careful what trailers and such were played in there to make sure they ALL had a dts track, but it bought us a little time and we didn't lose any shows...nor did the audience have any idea there was no backup because it never dropped out.

In the early 00s I was managing at another location where the analog led reader died. The tech in charge of that location had a real attitude and although he ordered the replacement parts, wouldn't let his assistant nor anyone install it. He sat on it for over 6 months. This was also a dts house. We did the same thing I had done in the 90s and got through it without one disrupted presentation.

Also in the early 00s I was servicing a location that was on a budget. All they cared about was digital sound, and when one of the power supplies blew for their exciter lamps, they refused to spend the money to fix it. This was an SDDS2000 system that I had calibrated and was having the projectionist thread "my way" (1 perf looser than the lines). They ran like that for a year or so. No dropouts.

At that same theater they also had an SDDS3000 system in the same predicament. They ran like that for a year or two as well. Just as before, no dropouts.

I am currently swapping out 35mm gear for digital at some theaters. Just before one was converted the analog reader died. With little time to conversion date, the owners decided not to bother with the backup. This was an SRD system. Have there been any dropouts? Nope!

The reason I point this out is because it CAN be done. Is it smart? No. I have to side with Tony that a theater should never be without analog sound. However sometimes reality prevails (meaning the owner's pocketbook), but for what its worth, the facts of my experience above proved that it can be done.

Disclaimer - all of these locations ran FilmGuard on their prints diligently, and they received their prints brand new. Without those two factors, there may or may not have been dropouts.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-09-2010, 03:48 PM:

Guys, none of this is complicated. What we are seeing is incompetent, cheap management that lets the lazy service guy get away with murder.

I, too, "got through the night" on DDigital. At midnight I was back in the theatre and at 1 am, all was normal. (Lost analogue on Friday at 7pm.)

I cannot imagine any professional operation allowing things to slide. MY, have the Mighty fallen!!! Louis

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 07-09-2010, 03:53 PM:

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr
Honestly, with that statement I have lost all respect for your judgment. And candidly, with that thought process (The idea of not a good enough reason, not the disclosure/non-disclosure of the tech company) if I were your GM/manager you would be fired.

If you think not disclosing the name of a company over something like this is reason to fire me, I'm sure glad I don't work for you. You're taking my feeling about not disclosing the name of the company as an indication about my attitude about film presentation. The two things are not related and you're an idiot for thinking they are.

Finally, I'm sorry I came to Film-Tech for help with a projection issue. I'll be sure not to let that happen again.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 07-09-2010, 04:18 PM:

I'm having a hard time figuring out who's "The Brute". Adam or Tony... [uhoh]

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-09-2010, 05:02 PM:

quote: Justin Hamaker
If you think not disclosing the name of a company over something like this is reason to fire me, I'm sure glad I don't work for you. You're taking my feeling about not disclosing the name of the company as an indication about my attitude about film presentation. The two things are not related and you're an idiot for thinking they are.

No, I think YOU obviously did NOT read what I wrote:

quote: ME, read it RIGHT this time!
And candidly, with that thought process (The idea of not a good enough reason, not the disclosure/non-disclosure of the tech company) if I were your GM/manager you would be fired.

So who's the idiot now? [Razz]

You STILL haven't even answered the most basic question, as to what make the reader is..you know if instead of arguing, you would answer the questions of people who WERE interested in trying to help you, you might have gotten help, hell I even have a spare reader I would have been willing to loan or rent to you, but with your attitude forget it. [fu]

quote: Louis Bornwasser
<snip> What we are seeing is incompetent, cheap management that lets the lazy service guy get away with murder.

I, too, "got through the night" on DDigital. At midnight I was back in the theatre and at 1 am, all was normal. (Lost analogue on Friday at 7pm.)

I cannot imagine any professional operation allowing things to slide. MY, have the Mighty fallen!!! Louis

Thank you Louis. I too have no problem with getting through a night (or a few days to get the parts in) but it is ABSOLUTELY INEXCUSABLE for things to 1: Drag on for "weeks" and 2: Think it's no big deal for a tech to leave a key component of the system dead without making ANY effort to get it fixed!!

Justin has made his position and attitude crystal clear and he should go with his last statement:

quote: Justin Hamaker
Finally, I'm sorry I came to Film-Tech for help with a projection issue. I'll be sure not to let that happen again.

I'm sure we'll miss you. [Roll Eyes]

Don't let your keyboard hit you in the ass on your way out.

quote: Phil Hill
I'm having a hard time figuring out who's "The Brute". Adam or Tony...

I vote for me. [Smile]