Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Order from JBL taking forever

This is topic Order from JBL taking forever in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=010533

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-13-2010, 01:53 PM:

I have finally been allowed to make some upgrades to the sound system in my theater. The main thing we are doing is to replace a broken down center channel speaker.

We ordered a 4675C speaker/horn combo from JBL nearly 2 months ago. They claim that some part or parts are on back order and they gave us a due date at the end of June which has already come and gone.

I understand that this model speaker is something that JBL doesn't sell as frequently as many of their other products so I expect some lead time in fulfilling the order. I understand about back order and supply issues.

What I don't understand is the lack of communication on their part, nor do I understand them missing a promised due date with no explanation.

I know they aren't going to set aside an order for 10 products just to make one stupid speaker but, at more than 2 months without any explanation, this is getting out of hand.

Normally, I would be calling them and asking questions but we could not order directly from the manufacturer. We had to order from a local dealer. Since I am not the customer of record with JBL, I have little to say about the issue. I can call my dealer and rattle some cages until he calls JBL and rattles some cages. Then I have to wait for the answer to be relayed back to me.

I have already been through two iterations of this dance.
I'm not getting very far.

Does JBL normally have a long lead time on orders like this?
Usually, companies will tell us if there will be a long wait.

Ideally, I would have liked to get all new speakers behind the screen. I understand that QSC makes good cinema speakers.
However, we've already got two JBL 4675C speakers behind the screen which work well. We don't have the money to buy all new speakers. I ordered the center speaker to match the other two.

Now, I'm getting heat from my boss, asking me what the problem is but I don't have an answer for him.

So... Does anybody else have any light they can shed on the situation?

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 07-13-2010, 02:39 PM:

JBL also sells Crown amps and a few months ago I had the power button literally collapse in on itself, effectively killing the amp. We contacted JBL/Crown for warranty replace/exchange and were informed the amps were not currently in stock. A few weeks ago, one finally arrived.
I know it's comparing apples and oranges, but your situation sounds similar to mine in that we had to wait to replace the amp like you are waiting to replace that speaker.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-13-2010, 02:41 PM:

It might not be JBL. It could be the dealer you purchased it through took your order and goofed and didn't get the order into JBL immediately, thus causing the delay.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-13-2010, 03:13 PM:

We got the quote from the dealer on May 17. The P.O. was submitted a day or two after that. The product would have been ordered from JBL by the end of that week at the latest. (May 21)

We called our dealer, asking where the stuff is and we got a reply from him on June 21. His answer was that JBL reports parts on back order. They said they would ship by the end of the month. I figured that would be June 30 or July 2. Give a week's time for the product to be delivered by motor freight. That means it should have been here last Friday (June 9) at the latest.

I certainly understand that things take time. Just as James pointed out, they don't stock every item all the time. If they have a six week lead time or even a ten week lead time, I don't necessarily mind. What I mind is that we are being kept in the dark.

I'm basically sitting here with my ass in my hand, having to answer questions from my boss that I have no power to solve. I have to ask somebody else to go ask JBL questions to which I might get a straight answer if I'm lucky.

All I want to do is to get the job done. I'm stuck here doing busy work until this one thing arrives.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-13-2010, 05:24 PM:

Your issue is with your dealer. It is his responsibility to keep you up to date (or to solve your problem). That is why factories HAVE dealers; to save them the grief of dealing with individual theatres. Louis

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-13-2010, 07:23 PM:

Is this even a CINEMA dealer, or some moron guitar center audio shop kind-of place?

Posted by David E. Nedrow (Member # 4981) on 07-14-2010, 10:27 PM:

I've been waiting on a Crown DSi monitor and DSi amps for weeks now. Still "out of stock".

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-14-2010, 11:51 PM:

Randy/David:

Screw JBL. Cancel your orders and go with QSC. [Big Grin]

Great products, awesome sound and good price points. And their stuff is in stock a great majority of the time. [Smile]

No I don't work for or get kickbacks from QSC.

I just have several locations with their stuff with very satisfied customers.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-15-2010, 12:39 AM:

I would like to but there are already two JBLs that work well. This order is to replace one that isn't working.

First, the center speaker had the older, long horn. (I forget the model number.) The left and the right are the newer 4675C. They should have been all the same from the start but they are not.

Second, the center speaker got a heavy fly pipe dropped on it and busted the top of the speaker cabinet. I patched it up as well as I could but it needs to be replaced.

Thus, while replacing it, I want to make them all the same.

If I could replace all three I would replace them with QSC but I had to kill for the money I am getting as it is. It would just not be possible to get three times the money to replace all three.

BTW: This is the dealer we're ordering through.
http://www.factaudio.com/index.html

They are the contractor the theater uses for all sound system work. I don't have any say in which contractor/dealer to purchase from.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-15-2010, 02:40 AM:

Well a few things...

Yes QSC is the best bang for the buck out there. I can't speak highly enough for them, and not only do their speakers setup faster than anyone else's, they seem to ship faster than anyone else too. (I don't get a commission or anything for saying that either.)

That being said, I completely understand why you bought JBL in this situation, and given the $ limitation I would've done exactly the same thing. After all JBL makes really good speakers (just not quite as good as QSC).

I was right in my guess. These guys are NOT who you should have hired to do the job. I'm guessing whoever made the decision was fooled by this line of bullshit from their website:

quote:
From identifying acoustic problems and recommending solutions to precision sound system tuning, Fact AV is the only company in the region that can provide these services!

Somebody call Penn & Teller.

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 07-15-2010, 11:59 AM:

According to the Lansing Heritage Forums, JBL has closed their Northridge plant and has moved the operation to Mexico.

The manufacturing in Northridge ended at the end of June.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-15-2010, 02:12 PM:

Some manufacturers are fussy as to what product lines a dealer can sell JBL used to restrict the cinema line to cinema dealers only and the PA and music lines to there respective reps and one could not cross divisions QSC Peavey and others did the same

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-15-2010, 05:34 PM:

quote: Ron Lacheur
The manufacturing in Northridge ended at the end of June.

Aha! So JBL fibbed a little, did they?

They said some things were on backorder and they promised to have them shipped out by the end of June but, if the plant was shutting down, that must have meant that they had no intention of fulfilling my order and they were just going to wait until the plant in Mexico started production before they shipped my goods.

I'm certainly willing to give a company some leeway in situations like this but if they knew they were going to be shutting down a factory they shouldn't have taken the order without telling the customer what was going on first.

I knew that JBL was making some of their products "off shore" but I was not aware that they were planning to shut down their only US factory and move to Mexico. If I had known that I would have factored that into my buying decision.

Chances are I would have said, "I can wait."
But I would have only said that if the company was being honest.

But, if they are going to pull this kind of shit and use stall tactics, taking people's money, having little intention of delivering the goods until some date in the future of their own choosing, I'm not pleased with that kind of behavior.

I want my stuff!

I want it yesterday!

And it will be a snowy day in August before I buy anything from JBL again!

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-15-2010, 06:03 PM:

Exactly what did you order? Small quantities, we stock. Larger quantities, we can get good used ones. Could happen fast. Louis

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-15-2010, 09:46 PM:

It is the 4675C speaker/horn cabinet. The passive version, not the bi-amped version.

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/General/Product.aspx?PId=77&MId=1

It would be nice to have the bi-amped version but, the way the sound system is set up it has to be full range.

I have a 2446 driver and the mounting bracket. I just need the 2360 horn to go on top.

I also have two of the 2035 fifteen inch LF drivers. I just need the cabinet with the 500 Hz crossover on the side.

About two years ago, somebody dropped a fly pipe, loaded with scenery, down on top of the old HF horn and ripped it right off the top of the cabinet. I cobbled it back together with a piece of 1/2 inch plywood but the thing is starting to fall apart again. I won't be able to put it back together again, this time.

Besides, the center speaker that I have now (and I am trying to replace) is the older model which doesn't match the left and right, which are the 4675C passive, full range speakers. I really want all three speakers to match for once and for all.

If I had those parts I could use what I have from my old speaker to make what I need. I don't think it is possible to order just those parts from JBL or I would have done so.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-15-2010, 10:07 PM:

I can order any individual parts from JBL. Also I may well have one each LF speaker with or without drivers, used. I am certain I can easily locate the HF system as well. Just one of each? Call me Monday. Louis

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-21-2010, 11:00 AM:

I talked to somebody at JBL today. (Julie.)

Apparently this order has been kicking around the sales office for a while.

From my conversation, they don't have all the parts in stock.
I gather that they have the horn parts that go on top and they have the LF speaker drivers. I am unclear as to whether they have the wooden (MDF) cabinet, although those should be trivial to make.

What seems to be the problem is the crossover network that goes in the cabinet.

I told them that I have some of the parts from the old, broken speaker here in my shop. They claim that they don't sell the individual parts out of the set.

They are working on the situation. I'll find out an answer soon, I hope.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 07-21-2010, 12:56 PM:

That network is for a 4638TH Bass cabinet with a crossover point of 630HZ....I could see after many years of bi/tri-amping with electronic crossovers that part could be gathering dust as a general stock item....

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-21-2010, 01:18 PM:

It'd be good if we could come up with one! [thumbsup]

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 07-21-2010, 10:39 PM:

Randy,

Tri-State Theatre Supply has several 4675's with no crossovers though. Might be worth checking out if you can get the crossover from Hadden.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-22-2010, 11:13 AM:

Randy,

Listen to Jeremy and Louis..

Cancel the order with the other "dealer" and contact Louis. You will be up and running sooner and probably for a lot less money which will make your owner happy.

The delays and lack of communication you have experienced shows that your current dealer doesn't give a rat's ass about their customers. And since they aren't a cinema dealer you have EVERY right to go to someone else for this situation.

Don't be like someone else recently who did not listen to the good advice that was given to him here. [Big Grin]

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-22-2010, 12:51 PM:

I have Spoken to Louis by phone. He gave me some good advice.

He actually helped me find somebody, located in Erie, PA, who reportedly has a used cabinet and horn just like I need.

If I can cut a deal with this person I will cancel the order with JBL.

In conversation with the sales admin. from JBL she gave me the impression that she was working to get a solution by the 26th of July. No promise was made but that date was discussed. Frankly, I seriously doubt JBL's ability to complete this order at all, let alone by the end of the month.

I also learned that there are others who have ordered this speaker and they are still waiting, too. It would be nice to think that all of us could get together and put collective pressure on JBL to follow through with their, so far, unkept promises. I don't know if that would have any effect but it's a thought.

I have also been talking to others on Film-Tech who might be able to provide alternate solutions. I don't know how things will turn out but, one way or another, I will have a solution to this problem whether JBL helps or not.

Bottom line: JBL had better get on the stick or they are going to start losing orders!

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 07-22-2010, 06:47 PM:

What crossover would be good to use on those 4675C's? I'm looking to replace some Smart Stage-1's.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-23-2010, 11:15 AM:

Jeremy:
I presume you're talking active crossovers?

The best would be to install a QSC DCM monitor as it allows time alignment and gain trims for the stage speakers. QSC makes a nifty breakout board for the monitor if you need to send the outputs to a non-QSC amp. (Be aware that it does NOT provide the proper interface for the speaker lines to return to the monitor though.)

Next best would be the XTA series plug-in crossovers (I have a set with the 1RU Ultra*Stereo frame that I could sell ya, contact me by PM).

A THX monitor/crossover would work well, but good luck finding one and getting the cards for it.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-23-2010, 11:54 AM:

Oh they're around. I am pulling 2 of them from service in December.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 07-23-2010, 12:26 PM:

The USL monitor crossover d version offers equivalent features like the QSC monitors. If you are not using QSC amps is really no reason to use the dcm unit since usl offers also d15 as well as phoenix connections.

Demetris

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 07-23-2010, 12:31 PM:

Sorry, didn't specify. It would be a passive x-over.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-23-2010, 01:15 PM:

The old passive crossover was the 3160. I think. (externally mounted.) Louis

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 07-23-2010, 02:36 PM:

Yeah, we have 3160's on the JBL 4670's we have on the other screens. I have found many of them up on eBay, but was just curious if there was another passive x-over that would be good to also consider. Just a thought also, is the passive x-over that came with the Smart Stage-1's (I believe that's the model. They are a 2-way single 15" LF and horn. They're no longer listed on the Smart website and tried googling, but found nothing.).

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-23-2010, 03:39 PM:

Randy, I believe JBL is now making those speakers in China... so that might be the hold up. Word has it that the older US Made JBLs are better. I agree with the others though... Go with QSC. They are a bit more expensive but worth every penny.

Mark

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 07-23-2010, 05:08 PM:

The 3160 was used on older cabinets until the early 1990's which is a 800 watt passive with high frequency attenuation and a 500HZ crossover......this was the updated version of the classic N500. JBL later supplied an internal crossover network (N-4638) installed on the speaker input plate of the 4638TH bass cabinet which is part of 4675C / 4670D systems....this crossover has a higher crossover point.

Sam at QSC told me that their speakers had Chinese parts [Smile]

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 07-23-2010, 05:27 PM:

I was under the impression that JBL theatre parts had been coming from the Philipines (yet another asian country) for many many years but were assembled in the USA.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-23-2010, 07:32 PM:

I am going forward with the deal on the speaker from the second supplier, here in Erie.

He has a 4538TH cabinet with the crossover. He has a 2360A horn for the top. I already have the driver donut for the back so I won't have to buy that part. It's used equipment pulled out of an AMC theater.

If all goes as planned we'll have a speaker in place by the end of next week.

As it stands, the only saving grace for JBL would be if their goods showed up on my doorstep first thing Monday morning. We have already contacted the dealer who we placed the original order with and told him our plans. By some time next week I plan to contact JBL directly and reiterate the request to cancel the order.

Do you think I should tell them the reason is because of their failure to deliver promised goods in a timely manner so we found a solution elsewhere? Or, do you think I should just say, "Cancel" and leave it at that?

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 07-23-2010, 07:43 PM:

I would definitely express the reason for canceling the order. A 2 month or longer turn around is unacceptable. Hopefully the dealer or JBL doesn't try to apply a cancellation charge.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-24-2010, 04:07 PM:

I have no problem with Chinese parts or equipment. Thay can make really good stuff. I was merely thinking it may be part of the delay.

Posted by Samuel Hynds (Member # 2610) on 07-26-2010, 04:45 PM:

fyi - Some of our parts do come from various Asian suppliers, especially tooled plastic parts. However, the QSC DCS screen channel and subwoofer parts come mostly from US and European suppliers. QSC has a full cabinet and paint shop at our headquarters in Costa Mesa, CA where most of the screen channels and subwoofers are built. Our surround speakers are sourced in Asia as it would be impossible to meet the price and performance targets for these models if they were built in a high-overhead location like southern California. All QSC products are tested to meet the same standards regardless of manufacturing location.

Sam Hynds
QSC Audio Products, LLC
Product Specialist - Cinema

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-28-2010, 09:10 PM:

Just an update:

The new speaker was delivered just this evening. We got a used model JBL speaker from a local supplier. It's a company I have known about but for one reason or another just haven't had any dealings with until now.

The Company is called Piranha, Inc.
They do a lot of work for AMC theaters in various cities.
I gather that they have been working on a lot of digital conversions for AMC and the equipment they have is taken from AMC theaters.

Regardless... We now have the speaker and it cost cost less than a third of what a brand new one from JBL would have cost.

I've got nothing personal against he people at JBL but "too bad... so sad!"

Sam,

If I could have figured out a way to use QSC speakers I would have but my budget was very tight. I was pushing my limit with the order from JBL.
I already had two speakers from JBL. If I went with QSC I would have had to buy three instead of just one. There was no way I was going to convince the boss to spend that much for speakers.

Given the experience I have had dealing with JBL I am certainly going to give serious consideration to QSC the next time I am in the market for audio equipment.

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 07-29-2010, 10:36 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I have no problem with Chinese parts or equipment. Thay can make really good stuff.

hehe

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-29-2010, 01:33 PM:

Yes they can Richard as can many other countries. However it seems it is only high quality when it is built to U.S. or Japaneese specs. Most of the Chinese originated stuff is still absolute crap.

Mark

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 07-29-2010, 02:16 PM:

Mark, Not going to get into it with you about China again. I was laughing when I wrote my response, it was only aimed at your previous responses in a different thread when you were slamming China a couple years ago when I was living in China.

Rick

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-02-2010, 02:28 PM:

I had my "Hello world" test today. It went really well. [thumbsup]

The new (used) speaker is installed and working as expected.
My next step is to tune the system up and run it at highway speed.

Detaching it from the Media Matrix processor and running all speakers full-range from amplifier to speaker, without any intervening equipment, has made a noticeable difference to me.

What's more, I have the internal levels controls for all the channels almost as low as they can go. I should have lots of headroom in the system now.

All that's really left to do is touch up the A-Chain and do a full B-Chain. They I should be ready to run. Given the difference I hear, now, with the system untuned (EQ controls at mid-setting) I'm hoping things will sound really good compared to what it was.

I'm thinking the next step is to get better amplifiers because what I've got is a mishmash of junky, old amps. There is an old Crest and a QSC USA-900 for the L/C/R channels. There is a couple of old Altec amps for the subs.

I want to replace those amps so I can be all ready to drop in the Dolby processor when I can finally weasel that out of the boss.