Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Best set-up for a Drive-in?

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Posted by Cameron Andrews (Member # 5246) on 07-18-2010, 10:32 AM:

I was just hoping to get some input on how to set-up my drive-in. I opened it last year on the cheap (The less you gamble the less you loose) but I have had several weekends nights this season with 500+ customers (last Friday we broke 750). I think its time to start looking at upgrading. Here is what I've got now

CFS Stuper-platter
ORC 4500 Console with 4200W Lamp
Schneider Lenses
Super Simplex projector Head w/ RCA sound head
Kelmar optical reader
Ramsey FM100B Transmitter
Smart MOD Eight (which has serious issues)

The screen is 84x42 and desperately needs a paint job. I would love to hear everyones opinions on what type of paint to use!

I am fighting some ambient light from a storage facility next to me.

The platter is already being replaced with a strong Alpha (left-overs from a digital conversion at my indoor)

Any advice on how to improve the image and sound would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-18-2010, 12:06 PM:

We install 1-2 new drive ins per year.

Keep your Schneider lens and the Kelmar LED. I assume thst the transmitter covers well and is either legal or that you have an alternative method of control. (Don't mount the antennas up high; mount them low. You only need to cover the drive in, not the county.)

The platter you are getting is my first choice anyway. I would get a rebuilt X60 or Super 80 and a Century SA with a soundhead. If properly modified, nothing will give you more light. (Talk with the UDITOA owners; I know I have.) You will need 4500 watts with water cooling. IF your existing lenses are current models, keep them.

The guy with the light interference; ask him nicely one time. After that, he will need to be served legal papers. The drive in was here first and needs to be protected. All his cost, not yours.

Oh, yes, and paint the screen. Louis

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-18-2010, 12:22 PM:

A Christie SLC lamphouse will put out more light than anything Strong running the same bulb wattage. With an 80+ screen, there is no reason to burn any bulb other than a 6K too.

Bear in mind Christie and Kinoton projectors use a single shutter will put out more light too. (Although a Century is a very good machine.)

That SMART processor needs to go! There are lots of used Dolby processors on the market.

Keep your Schneider lens and see what others say about screen paint and transmitter.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-18-2010, 12:36 PM:

The owner who used to own that drive-in many moons ago (Teton Vu .. where I started 40yrs ago) would paint that screen every other year since that day time sun would beat on it directly (screen faces east) with high reflective street paint, or a special drive-in screen paint since we had Motiographs with Ashcrafts with 10mm carbons (should have been 11's with Kollmorgens for flat and prime with BL II's for scope since it was a 380 ft throw on that 82ft wide screen-originally square since it was built in 1950 and panels added for scope in 1954. When the flood hit the area in 1976 the building was completely submerged, thus the BOR bought the owner new equipment where he put in SWORDS with PRO35's sitting on them and a NEUMADE table to handle the big reels) to illuminate it on those summer nights.

Glad to see that the place can still bring them in even with a 6plex family event center just up the street. One of the few drive-in's still operatable in that part of the state.

Even a USL JS-200 can be used since that's all gonna be used for the snak bar speakers since you got the Ramsey.

Good luck - Monte

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-18-2010, 02:45 PM:

Wow: Ballantyne & Motiograph in a drive in???? Well Supers aren't much better. Does someone just HATE drive ins??? (I understand budget for only one year.) I'm talking about LIGHT. In a drive in, all other factors fade away if you can't see the picture or have to wait until 11 pm to start.

You will want 1. something still made (Strong) 2. Something a normal person can deal with (not over 4500 watt) and 3. something available used.

Oh, yes, a regular SA is pretty good, but with work you can get a lot more light from them and no ghosting, even with a drive in blade. They don't come that way, though. Call me.

As far as sound goes, even thought I am not a big Smart fan, they did make a really good, reliable unit called the Mod2-dit, which we stock and repair. This is the basis. Add a small compressor/limiter such as the Ashly CL-52E and a suitable transmitter, which you may already have. Costs do add up, but it is possible to get really excellent sound off of analog. We have stayed away from Digital in driveins because of simplicity issues. Most comments are that the drive in has better sound than the indoor. Louis

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-18-2010, 03:53 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
Most comments are that the drive in has better sound than the indoor....

(lol) - mainly due to the money spent on aftermarket automotive sound equipment which has more speakers per sq/in installed in a small area than any indoor cinema can even think of..

I put some picts of the drive-in (Teton-Vu Dr-in) in the "Picture/Drive-In" tab when I was there for one to gander at.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-18-2010, 04:49 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
You will want 1. something still made (Strong) 2. Something a normal person can deal with (not over 4500 watt) and 3. something available used.

We will have to agree to disagree. I know you are a major Strong dealer, but I find their products quite lacking in quality. It is no secret that if someone wants to buy a Strong-built projector, they pretty much have to send it to someone qualified like Hadden to rebuild it...even if it is brand new. That is sad and shows the level of quality being produced at Strong.

Are you talking about notching the shutter blades, or just slimming them down? Slimming them causes ghosting (which is usually not noticeable in a drive-in), but could also be done on any other projector. Notching creates a hot spot, which could also be done on any other projector. What is this special process you speak of that is unique to the Century SA?

The Christie SLC consoles can't be beat for light, and that is crucial to him. They are also easily repaired in the odd instance they actually fail.

Furthermore, there is no real difference between a 4.5K lamp and a 6K lamp as far as an operator or bulb installer is concerned, but the 6K will buy you that extra light a drive-in needs.

I am pulling a lot of like-new condition SLCs here before the year is out, all capable and have been running 6K lamps in them. So yes at least a batch of them will be available on the used market through me and probably from a chunk of other people as well that are converting theaters to digital.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-18-2010, 08:35 PM:

I've even heard of some wild stories that some Centurys didn't even have shutters in them at all when shooting on a drive-in screen...

True though, Cameron would definitely benefit having an SLC console out there with a Christie P35 attached to it - prob put the best plcture in town if that happened out there along with the best picture that drive-in have ever seen prior to the Ashcrafts we had...

Only thing I'm concered about since those consoles have that cooling fan below the rectifier and the building is ground level, a gravel yard, with the outside entrance door right there,
would there be a problem with large dust accumulation inside the console?

At one time, there was a AW3 out there a few years back with that SuperSimplex/Xenex-II setup (dang, that old Super would get plenty hot having a 4k bulb shining through it..), but noticed that he now has a CFS platter out there.

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 07-19-2010, 04:41 AM:

I have to agree with Louis on this.

The Century/X-60 rejig combo is so cost effective and reliable in this situation. I am guessing that Cameron, even though he wishes to upgrade, will still find it necessary to count his pennies. To this end, the Century/X-60 is a no-brainer. The RCA will also fit the bill on top of the Century, though I would probably go for a Century DAW. Wouldn't touch a Christie P35 in a fit. High maintenance, pissy shutter and lousy QC.

Why?

Century parts are very freely available and not exceedingly overpriced and the Century's wont shit themselves in a dusty drive-in environment. The DAW's have contra shutters with undercuts for more light as well. Same goes for the RCA - cheap, bomb-proof and as mentioned before there's no need to go digi audio. Actually, some patrons LIKE to hear scratches and splices on the soundtrack- it adds to the atmosphere that they can't get anywhere else.

Im no fan of platters in drive-ins. The print picks up way too much dirt and crap so if Cameron wants to replace the platter, go for an Eprad mut. Again, bomb-proof, much less chance of a chucked print and dirt cheap in the current financial climate.

If the processor is working and sounds good, then stick with it til it blows then go USL.

Lenses- stick with the Schneiders.

...but the GREATEST improvement for picture brightness is, as Louis says, is to paint the screen.

The SMPTE Theatre Projection Manual mentions painting drive-in screens with a bright aluminium base coat then over covering with a thin, white "diffuser". It will look splotchy during the daylight hours, but with a picture on it, it looks great.This is reported to work very well, so good that a reduction in power draw can be implemented... or use a lower wattage bulb for the same screen reflective brightness. This narrower reflection angle will also help with the ambient light problem at the cost of a falloff in brightness on the outer ramps.

You are to be congratulated on embarking on this venture, Cameron. We wish you the very best of luck and let us know how you go and what you decide.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-19-2010, 06:57 AM:

Tim Reed is the drive-in expert. Hopefully he will be along shortly with his recommendations.

Jack Ondracek, another forum member, has a drive-in with an amazing FM sound system. He has described it elsewhere here (I did a cursory search, but couldn't find the description and pictures). Perhaps someone can dig up that thread.

Also, what is with drive-ins with 2:1 screens? I have seen this elsewhere as well. Why aren't they 2.35:1 or 2.39:1?

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-19-2010, 07:07 AM:

Yeah, I really hate that.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-19-2010, 07:50 AM:

Maybe because building materials like plywood, etc. come in 4x8 sheets?
(i.e. 2:1 A.R.)

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 07-19-2010, 07:58 AM:

2:1 ratio = narrower aperture = smaller light spot= increased light output for aperture size.

Also, by having a 2:1 ratio as opposed to 2:35 means the same light spread over a smaller screen width - again equating to a brighter picture.

At these screen sizes, every bit helps.

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 07-19-2010, 09:47 AM:

quote: Brad Miller
I find their products quite lacking in quality. It is no secret that if someone wants to buy a Strong-built projector, they pretty much have to send it to someone qualified like Hadden to rebuild it...even if it is brand new. That is sad and shows the level of quality being produced at Strong.

Hehe

When Megasystems was around, (Strong built) we would strip them down and rebuild them in Florida and run them for a few days before shipping them out and installing them. If I was out of the country, I didn't want any surprises.

During my brief time at Strong, I had to spend a few days with the guys assembling the machines, Apogees, Centuries, etc. One guy was showing me something on a simplex and trying to explain it, I just said "Dude, you have no idea how many of these I have had to rebuild"

Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 07-19-2010, 10:23 AM:

I've had my drive-in for 7 years now. For Screen paint: Sherwin Williams A100 Flat Latex Wall paint.

True story: When we put in our first screen - we had a Selby 25x60 built. When they were finished they left me a 5 gallon bucket of "Selby OFFICIAL DRIVE-IN MOVIE SCREEN PAINT" to use for touch-ups if needed. During our rush to get the theatre open, I just left the bucket sitting outside behind the concession stand. After a couple of months in the sun and rain, the Selby label peeled off the bucket to reveal the original Sherwin Williams A100 label.

As far as sound goes.. I've got the Smart MODII DIT processor that Louis described on my first screen, and nothing but a rack mount DJ mixer on screen 2. There IS a noticeable difference in sound. I have found pro's and con's of both set-ups. The pro's for the Smart box is that the mix for the film sound is very good and it doesn't run through any other sound processors before it goes to the transmitter. The con... I can't "talk-over" the film audio during the credits (having both film sound and microphone going out at the same time). I know if I ran the outputs of the Smart through the mixer I could, but that kind of defeats the purpose of the Smart box.

Transmitters: I have a Broadcast Warehouse TX-5 transmitter on each screen, running to an interior wall-mounted J-Pole antenna. Couldn't ask for a better radio transmitter. I had a Ramsey FM25B on screen 2 when we started out, and ditched it within 3 weeks due to the complaints on the sound. I've got the transmitter's power level dialed all the way down as low as it will go and still have a great signal on the fields.

I've got Strong AP3 platters in each of my booths, and besides the occasional micro switch - we've never had a problem.

Ambient light: Just remember - you can't fight light with light. You can increase your bulb size and make the white's whiter - but nothing will make the blacks blacker until you get rid of or shield the ambient light. I have the same issue at my place with the warehouses across the street. They have these huge 500 watt quartz halogen wall-pack lights that light my screen orange! In my case - they were here first not me. I've offered to pay to have shields put on their lights, offered to pay to put their lights on a timer circuit, and even offered to swap out their fixtures for another type of light fixture that wouldn't produce the glare. They just basically tell me to [sex]

off.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-19-2010, 01:40 PM:

His 2.00:1 screen presents the 1.75:1 with full top and dark sides, while his 2.20:1 scope does the "Band-aid" presentation with full sides and dark band top and bottom.

quote: Randy Stankey
Maybe because building materials like plywood, etc. come in 4x8 sheets?
(i.e. 2:1 A.R.)

Most use 4'x8' masonite panels-pretty durable stuff-I do believe that is what his screen is assembled with..

I service two drive-ins with one drive-in that uses the masonite panels and the other drive-in has corregated sheet metal panels for screen material.

In my home town, I ran a drive-in where it's screen was 60'x100'-all of masonite panels. Flat was, once again the full top and dark sides for the 1.66:1 flat yet had true 2.39:1 scope with dark top and full sides (This was one drive-in that had it all: magnetic sound with two speakers per car-full Motiograph booth both magnetic penthouses and setup with Futura II's using 13.6mm rotators with dichronic reflectors that had long "f-stops" to get every bit of that light through those barrel shutters-and the Motiographs were water cooled.) which has an excellent picture on the screen.

This drive-in is still in operation. Motor-Vue Dr-In

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-19-2010, 03:32 PM:

Barry: just use a .22 rifle! (Ask David Baker.) Louis

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 07-20-2010, 02:39 PM:

Monte...how far away is the Spud Drive-in from you? Their web site states they are running Despicable Me in 2D digital.
I would link to it, but I appear to be a retard...

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-20-2010, 04:38 PM:

Link to The Spud Drive-In website.

4K projection...interesting. They're going to get a second projector and screen 3D there too.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-20-2010, 04:40 PM:

Don't feel like a retard..

(John beat me to it..) rofl

I've been there before since I'm from that part of the country and my father grew up in Driggs, Idaho.

It's not that large of a location-maybe 200 cars at the most, but it's a major landmark for that part of the area. Driggs used to also have an indoor house, but closed long time ago.

Building isn't that too far from the screen - maybe only a 180 ft throw in as well the screen could be a 40 x 80 ft screen. Thus, I could see them adding digital (in which I've heard that it's a sweet looking presentation over the film stuff that they have there - Brenkhert/RCA/ORC 4500 with CFS platters).

I sent a note to the owner on his DCI install - on what he did and what equipment was installed.

-Monte

-Monte

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-20-2010, 04:49 PM:

Newpaper story on the upgrade with local TV news story

and here's another story and more video in this link.

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 07-20-2010, 05:01 PM:

Call me crazy but the screen could use some work or is a 3d screen for 2d movies where parts of the screen pop out at you?
I hate when they say the film reels,trailers can't be assembled in any order like the 21st century digital can!
The piece made me sad and then i threw up in my mouth!

Oh and i never thought of going to the drive-in to watch my blu-ray player

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-20-2010, 05:21 PM:

quote: Victor Liorentas
Call me crazy but the screen could use some work or is a 3d screen for 2d movies where parts of the screen pop out at you?

We had a screen that did the whole wobbly bit during the day but was flat as a pancake at night. That being said, it probably could use some work though. His digital projector isn't going to be much good to him if the screen falls down.

quote: Victor
I hate when they say the film reels,trailers can't be assembled in any order like the 21st century digital can!

While it's not true in a technical sense, it sure is a whole lot easier to shuffle them any-way-you-want in the digital format.

quote: Mr Liorentas
Oh and i never thought of going to the drive-in to watch my blu-ray player

I think he's just trying to let folks know there's a big difference at his Drive-In in a way to make it as easy as possible to get the message across. No harm in that.

quote: The same guy as above
The piece made me sad and then i threw up in my mouth!

It's progress. It's happening whether you throw up or not. [Wink]

Posted by Mike Frese (Member # 4361) on 07-20-2010, 07:23 PM:

Is that how the screen is supposed to look?

Posted by Alex Shultz (Member # 5027) on 07-21-2010, 01:02 AM:

I think that Roger Bockert from Heartland Theatre did that installation. He came to fix something for me the next day and was telling me about installing the first digital projector in a drive-in. He said he was skeptical about the screen when he first saw it but that it looked perfect when the show ran. He was very happy with how it turned out.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-21-2010, 03:20 AM:

He put a BARCO 2K unit in with the option for 4K in the future.

quote: John Wilson
His digital projector isn't going to be much good to him if the screen falls down

Don't think so for that screen frame-being the original 1953 frame-is pretty solidly built. There can be some nasty winds that blows around that area due to being up in the mountains, but not strong enough to blow that screen down. The people who previously owned that place along with the current owners have done major work on that screen so the only way it could come down is by earthquake of sorts.

quote: John Wilson
It's progress. It's happening whether you throw up or not.

True, for the owners of the the two drive-ins over here have approached me of DCI conversions, but I told them that their screens are too far away from the booth and too large for the picture.

The Spud can get away with it due to a short throw -just barely over 100 ft, and a small 35'x78' screen. The 14plex in the nearest large town also has a BARCO in it with almost the same throw and screen size, but a shade smaller.

-Monte

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 07-21-2010, 03:23 AM:

So they hope to get "at least 50 years" out of the digi install?

I sincerely hope they do but experience and a bit of common sense says there is not a hope in hell.
..and 3D???

Tell me how the lack of light will be addressed... and the 3D effect at the rear ramps... and the polarisation artifacts due to the windscreen.

Granted, they are to be congratulated on trying something new, but the re-equipping costs alone will put the operators under great financial strain.

Oh yeah, there isn't much "nostalgia" in being the first with digital playback.

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 07-21-2010, 05:06 AM:

Over time I am sure people will look back at 2k as the good old days...... eventually!

Monte what is the issue with the throw? Is no one making long lenses and they will need to build a new projection room?

Posted by Brendan Penny (Member # 5041) on 07-21-2010, 06:36 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
He put a BARCO 2K unit in with the option for 4K in the future.

Hope he doesn't really want to go 4k in the future cause it ain't gonna happen without a new projector. Looked like a .98" he had there [Eek!]

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 07-21-2010, 07:00 PM:

Nothing wrong with a Century and Strong combo. Depends how much you want to spend. We run all X60 & Super 80 with 5k lamps. One on a Century the others are AA2's (DP70). People tell us we have the best light they have seen at a drive-in. Screens are over 80ft wide.

If you have big dollars to spend then a late model Chrstie consol is very light efficient, but I have other preferences for the projector.

I hate to tell the Spud drive-in and its supporters, but it is not the world's first digital drive-in. The Galaxy Drive-in in Kingsley, Western Australia has been digital since last year. From all reports the image is bright and sharp.

David

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-21-2010, 09:32 PM:

Did they say 'in the world' or 'in the USA'?