Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: REAL credit offsets -- what & why?

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Posted by David E. Nedrow (Member # 4981) on 07-24-2010, 04:26 PM:

There are probably others who have been wondering this, but what are "REAL credit offsets" -- I'm sure this is a Digital Cinema thing -- and why are they needed? Show programming, ie. lights up/down?

-David

Posted by Matt Fields (Member # 3211) on 07-24-2010, 04:37 PM:

The credit offset is the time when the credits begin so you can program your automation to turn the house lights on.

The studios provide this information with the hard drive, but often their credit offset is not when the credits first appear, but after additional footage/bloopers/artwork is finished.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-24-2010, 04:57 PM:

Some theaters have insurance clauses which require the lights to be raised at the beginning of the first end credit, because at that point the majority of the people will start getting up and leaving. In a stadium seating auditorium, the potential for an accident is greater too.

Its actually a good practice regardless of whether your insurance requires it...assuming you care about your customer's safety, that is.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-24-2010, 05:31 PM:

Hmm...interesting. I usually don't raise house lights until any extra scenes/outtakes/etc. are over, or (with most features) until the actual credit "crawl" starts. House lights stay down if the crawl is preceded by "slates" with the names of the major actors, director, editor, cinematographer, etc., unless the "slates" continue for a substantial length of time.

House lights always stay down for any sort of "epilogue" titles that explain what eventually happened to the characters or anything of that sort.

Is this not a standard policy? Does it depend on the type of film? After all, not many kids-movie audiences will sit through the credits, but many film-festival-goers will, especially if the screening is followed by a Q&A with the director or someone else associated with the film.

I can be persuaded either way. The safety issue is important, but so is presentation quality. Personally, I sit through credits and would actually prefer that house lights not be raised until the credits have actually completed, but that is unrealistic in most cases.

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 07-24-2010, 06:44 PM:

I use Scott's method as well. I consider the credit crawl the "actual" beginning of the credits as often imagery is under those initial credits.

To circumvent any patron safety issues, the aisle lights are brought up to maximum thus giving the aisle stairs more light.

Posted by Matt Fields (Member # 3211) on 07-24-2010, 07:01 PM:

I'm with Brad. We turn on the lights once the credits hit. Reality around here is that most people leave once any credits start. Even on something like Toy Story 3, which had excellent bits during the credits, only about 25% of the people stayed through the whole thing.

Posted by David E. Nedrow (Member # 4981) on 07-24-2010, 09:51 PM:

Cool, thanks for the info re: the offsets.

We have no aisle lights as yet, so I pretty much have to raise the house lights -- which are dimmed as far as possible during the feature -- as soon as the credits hit the screen.

Once we've gotten some money together, I want to get new dimmers that can handle a half-way mode. Right now, I just committed what was left of our world cup concession money to a couple of Kinoton reels for my spool tower. [Wink]

-David

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-24-2010, 11:44 PM:

I do not cue up the lights during any epilogue slates, but definitely when the credits start. If there is bullshit going on off to the side of the credits, the lights come up anyway. And I do not lower them again for end-of-credit scenes like in Iron Man.

We had one customer who complained a long time ago about us bringing up the lights during credits because she liked to stay and read them. She said the lights washed out the credits and made them unreadable which, of course, is ridiculous.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 07-25-2010, 05:48 AM:

Properly designed and installed house lights do not wash the screen with light.

Check out the Court Street Theatre in the photo gallery.

These dimmers have only full up or full down and there is no complaint with when they are used.

Curtain warmers go off with the curtain motor 'open cue' and on with the 'close cue'. Fail safe is the off mode.

KEN

Posted by Greg Routenburg (Member # 1742) on 07-26-2010, 12:10 PM:

I'm with Scott on when the lights should be brought up. That was always my policy as well. I also agree with Kenneth, while there is something being projected on the screen, you should never seriously compromise it's viewing. The credits are as much a part of the show as the feature. I can't tell you how much it annoys me to be sitting in an auditorium and have full house lights or even worse, cleaning lights, come up full as soon as the credits roll. It kills the presentation. That being said, staircases should never be a hazard during or after the show. I find the use of Tivoli to mark the edge of stairs or isle lights close to the floor quite effective during the show and half lights during the credits is more then enough light for patrons to safely exit.

Posted by Joe Elliott (Member # 4006) on 07-26-2010, 12:31 PM:

We have gotten complaints a few times if the lights have not come up as soon as the credits start. We had one lady chew out a manager, and threaten to sue because the lights didn't come up the second the credits started, as she had to get up immediately and use the restroom. We have runner lights on the floor, and our lights only go down to the minimum safety setting (which people complain that the lights don't go all the way dark during the movie). We do get more than our share of complainers, as we are in a high tourist area, and I think a lot of people are under a lot of stress from their vacations, so they tend to complain more. We have Ash-Stevenson dimmers that have 4 settings: OFF, P1(show), p2(half),p3(full), bump (instant up for emergencies). We hit half at the start of any credits, and then full when the main credits hit.

That being said however, even if we only had full up/down, I feel the lights come up as soon as the credits hit. People generally have to run to the restroom right away. Easter eggs and extra scenes are OK upon occasion, but hollywood just trys too hard to FORCE people to watch the credits, and the 'credit offset' crap with digital is just another way to do it. We need an insurance waver form, anytime they send out credit offsets that are when THEY want the lights to come up instead of when the actual credits start. Sending them that waiver that states that they are responsible for any accidents/injuries incurred by patrons trying to exit the theater during credits with low lighting would most likely put a stop to that practice.

Yes this is one of my pet peeves.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-26-2010, 12:59 PM:

Credits are a big peeve of mine too. They are NOT part of the movie...they don't add anything to the story and need not be observed in a group fashion to get any more out of them. They are to a movie what a bibliography is to a book...information that may be useful for those that desire to explore a subject further.

Some of the greatest movies of all time end with "THE END" and that is it...no long credit crawl and the movies are not any worse for the lack of credits.

I have no problem with folks getting credit for their hard work. I also understand that screen credit is often used as a Resume reference for those in the trade...that is fine...yet it still is not part of the movie...it is an appendage, an annoying one, at that.

That said, I have no problem with leaving the house lights down or low during them. The patron is free to get up whenever they want to go to the bathroom or leave the theatre, credits or in the middle of the movie...they are not entitled to lights being at some set level other than what may be required by code. Those that choose to read the credits should NOT have to contend with the theatre staff making the the observation of the credits any more difficult (cleaning and work lights should remain off until the last bit of film runs though the projector...or in quality theatres, until the curtain closes).

-Steve

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-26-2010, 12:59 PM:

quote: Joe Elliott
hollywood just trys too hard to FORCE people to watch the credits

No kidding. I abhor scenes after the credits start.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-26-2010, 01:09 PM:

One thing that always seems awkward is what to do when there is a discussion or Q&A following a film with an extremely long credit crawl, especially with audiences that have been conditioned to get up and leave as soon as the credits hit the screen.

There are several options for how to deal with this, none of which is entirely acceptable:

- show credits all the way through with house lights down (with the result that those who actually do want to leave end up tripping over themselves)

- fade out music and bring up house lights at start of credit crawl, allow credits to roll on screen as Q&A/discussion starts (can be abrupt depending on type of film, some people want to read credits and/or listen to credit music without interruption)

- show credits normally, with house lights at mid (with the result that many people end up leaving instead of staying, as they think that the show is over)

None of these approaches really works well, and it is especially annoying when the director (or whoever is responsible for the event) is not aware of the potential problems and decides to do something different at the last minute.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-26-2010, 01:21 PM:

quote:
- fade out music and bring up house lights at start of credit crawl, allow credits to roll on screen as Q&A/discussion starts (can be abrupt depending on type of film, some people want to read credits and/or listen to credit music without interruption)

This procedure always seems to work the best in my experience.

I am with Steve that credits aren't part of the movie BUT I do greatly prefer having them scroll by at the end of a movie with the score playing as "exit music" than a movie that ends with "the end".

That being said, Joe is dead right. There should never be scenes once the credits start rolling. [Mad]

In any event, the janitor lighting should NEVER be turned up during the end credits. We specifically design our systems to turn the janitor lights on after a delay after the end credits are over, but I've been to theaters where the usher kid hit the switch the instant the first credit hit the screen and it really ruined the end of the movie for me.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-26-2010, 01:27 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
One thing that always seems awkward is what to do when there is a discussion or Q&A following a film

That is awkward. Celebrated actor Benjamin Bratt was at our theater not too long ago to do a Q&A after a show. I asked him when he wanted me to bring up the lights and he gave me a spiel about the songs in the credits and when I should bring them up and let the credits roll to the end. But as soon as the credits started he sent someone up to tell me to turn them up immediately and then walked into the auditorium and began signaling me to stop the show entirely.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 07-26-2010, 06:37 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
One thing that always seems awkward is what to do when there is a discussion or Q&A following a film with an extremely long credit crawl, especially with audiences that have been conditioned to get up and leave as soon as the credits hit the screen.

Wouldn't it be best just to have some representative announce that the Q&A session will happen afterwards and say who it is that's part of it? That way, the people who want to talk to the guy will know to either not leave or at least come back after going to the restroom and such.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-26-2010, 07:11 PM:

I agree that scenes during the end credits are a pain but they are kind of nice during 3D movies --- the crowd comes out in dribs and drabs, so glasses collection is easier.

We leave the lights at full-off until the screen has nothing but credits on it.

If there is an additional scene at the end of the movie I'll make the lights go off again for that. It is part of the show after all, and those uber-fans invest minutes of their lives to sit through the boring credits to watch the extra scene. I think the least we can do is make it all the more dramatic by dropping the lights.

Our crew is strictly instructed to never turn on the cleaning lights or start cleaning unless everyone's out of the auditorium. If we have a tight schedule (early show started late, or something) the lights still operate as normal, but I'll let the crew start picking up stuff behind the still-seated people, but never in front.

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 07-27-2010, 12:30 AM:

After credit scenes are a real pain for cinemas like our that have curtains.
Blank screens should never be seen. It would be a good idea to have a studio logo following an end scene. Something that lasts about 17 seconds.
These days, when there are ways to find out who checked the oil in the vehicles that were used by the caterers, there is no real need for long credits.
They can serve a purpose in a drama when the audience needs a transmission from the finale to exit but the longest credits are attached to the kids films, which also have those after thought end scenes. That is when you require a cleaning staff almost as numerous as the credit list.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 07-27-2010, 04:31 AM:

as an audience member, i get pretty annoyed when credits are interrupted for a q&a, as sometimes happens at film festivals. i ought to be able to see and hear the entire movie i paid for, and i do watch the credits, always. tell the audience before the show that there'll be a q&a, and during the credits those who can't be bothered with it can exit without seeming rude.

quote: Ron Curran
These days, when there are ways to find out who checked the oil in the vehicles that were used by the caterers, there is no real need for long credits.

where exactly do you go to find these credits other than the end-of-movie scroll? they're not all on imdb.

a "filmmaker" wanted me to kill sound and bring up lights at the start of credits for his spiel, and, thinking this would dissuade him, i said the wireless mike system would pick up noise from the lamp (which has happened before and i didn't want to risk it). so he had me kill the bulb too. it was a rental... what could i do? it was a shitty movie though.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-27-2010, 05:56 PM:

I've always thought that the credits should be in a "brochure" that could be handed out, or on a onesheet that could be displayed next to the auditorium showing the film. That way the 1% of the people who are interested could actually read the credits, and think of all the film and time it would save.

I do agree the cast members should be listed at the end of the film, and maybe the director and writer(s). Beyond that, the vast majority of people don't care.

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 07-27-2010, 06:58 PM:

Sorry Carl, I forgot to put a smily face after my comment.

Mike, I agree. The "Roadshow" film used to have a souvenir book for sale at the cinemas - didn't include all of the little people though.

We often have people sit right through to the end to find out where it was filmed.

Don't you love the patrons who leave during the credits to tell you how they love the music and want to know where you can get it. Actually, you can get it inside the theatre right now.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-27-2010, 07:33 PM:

I screened one of Catherine Deneuve's new films a couple of years ago and she was in for a Q+A after the show. I made sure the powers that be checked with her how she wanted the credits played out. The answer came back that all of them should be played with the lights down...no problem, that is until the end of the movie came and she wanted them cut. I faded out the credit music and switched to mic as the lights came up but left them scrolling on screen.

It seems the powers that be never bothered asking her in the first place. Assholes. [fu]