Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Girl with Dragon Tattoo film stock

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-01-2010, 12:27 AM:

We have had this movie since March and now it seems to have developed a bit of a problem in reel 8, and only a short section less than 5 minutes long. The film sticks to itself and tries to pull multiple layers through the brain at the same time. Same exact symptoms as static. I have been running Filmguard on it every week since we got it.

I checked the leaders and it doesn't denote any particular film stock. Is it AGFA? I did notice a series of numbers that started with the letter A, but that's it.

Posted by Justin B. Martin (Member # 5817) on 08-01-2010, 02:41 AM:

If you want to rely on the reputability of IMDb's technical specs it's Kodak 2383...

Posted by Jason Metcalfe (Member # 5739) on 08-01-2010, 11:58 AM:

I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but sometimes if we're experiencing static i take a paper towel that's slightly damp with filmguard and rub it along the top of the film while it's sitting on the platter, one or two shows later the problem usually goes away.

Sorry you're having trouble with this print, we ran it from march until last friday and it still looked better on it's last show than some films that we've run for half that time. My manager said it must have been made out of unobtanium.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-01-2010, 12:10 PM:

Justin, I definitely do not trust the IMDB on this one.

Jason, I run the entire print through Filmguard every week, not just a simple wipe. There have always been parts of the print that act a little weird. The tail likes to stick to itself for no reason as well. There isn't much humidity in Denver. Anyway, I am applying an additional coat of FG today. Hopefully that will help. But AGFA and Filmguard are not fast friends judging by my Screenvision rolls.

Posted by Jason Metcalfe (Member # 5739) on 08-01-2010, 12:32 PM:

I'm not sure if it sounds like static or if the print is just deteriorating?

Maybe you could try one of those static-duster wipes on the platter and the top of the film to try to eliminate the cling.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-01-2010, 01:12 PM:

No, Filmguard should eliminate any such static. I'm sticking with cheap-o film stock as the cause.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-01-2010, 01:21 PM:

I'm guessing you have had the print since it was new, right?

When I get prints they are used 95% of the time. As such, there are often bits of tape or stickum on the film, left over from some other monkey who put tape on where he shouldn't have or who didn't clean off his splicing tape when he broke down.

Most of the time I get prints sticking like that it is because of something sticky left on the film.

However, if you got the print new, this might not be the case for you.

But... it might do well for you to inspect that part of the print to see if some kind of foreign substance has gotten onto the print.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-01-2010, 01:59 PM:

Yup, got it new. And I did inspect and found nothing unusual. When something sticky is on a print, it is more of a "hard drag" of two or more layers all going the same place at the same time. This is more like static symptoms, but oddly only in certain spots.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-01-2010, 07:09 PM:

"Green" print?

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 08-01-2010, 07:36 PM:

AGFA stock numbers will be a pale amber series of characters beginning with the letters A G S printed outside the sprocket holes where the SDDS track resides, and additionally will feel more supple in the fingers. I have found AGFA stock to be of just as high a quality as Eastman and Fujicolor, with no problems with platters, muts, towers or 2000 changeover in regards to static cling or sticking... and I like the look.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-01-2010, 11:28 PM:

It ran fine today (for no reason, FG isn't applied until the projector). Not sure what the problem is. Why would the print have a sudden static attack when I have poured many gallons of Filmguard on it over the months?

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 08-01-2010, 11:38 PM:

If it was during a sex scene perhaps one of your operators added his DNA to the film. [evil]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-01-2010, 11:51 PM:

Any chance you have a center ring/tip of leader that is making a protrusion where you tuck it into the ring? If so does it stick at that point in the revolution?

Agfa can look pretty on screen (not necessarily though), but whatever it is made out of is hell on the projectors and sprockets. I hate it. Give me Fuji for extra black blacks and hold the Agfa please.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-02-2010, 12:06 AM:

We don't tuck the tip of the leader into the center ring, we use friction, but I think I know the effect you are talking about. Or not. I'm just kind of guessing out of my ass here that I might know.

Tony, there is lots of nudity in the movie but the woman depicted onscreen is very disgusting so that cannot be the cause. It happens at the point in reel 8 where the little girl tosses a match or something in the car and it catches on fire (in tinted black and white).

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 08-02-2010, 12:43 AM:

Joe.
Can you see any fluid or water marking along the sprocket area of the print? A similar thing happened to me once and I traced it back to that section of the print being closely inspected on the bench..by an operator who had a cold soft drink can on the bench..right where the print fell and left swollen and sticky emulsion.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-02-2010, 04:55 AM:

I don't really have the luxury of taking it to the bench. But I doubt I spilled anything on it when I built it up except maybe a bit of super glue when I keep near at all times for no particular reason. I couldn't see or feel anything peculiar as it played.

Posted by Justin B. Martin (Member # 5817) on 08-03-2010, 11:54 PM:

FWIW Joe, the 5-2010 issue of American Cinematographer also lists the stock as 2383. But they've been wrong before...

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 08-04-2010, 12:10 AM:

The prints we have here in Oz are European in origin and indeed on AGFA stock. I think it's quite common for dupe negs to be shipped from the country of origin to destination countries for local printing, and this is where the differing print stocks become evident.

Posted by John Plasket (Member # 2201) on 08-06-2010, 12:00 AM:

Wouldn't the stock listed at IMDB and American Cinematographer reflect what it was shot on, not what is being used for distribution?

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 08-06-2010, 12:13 AM:

You'd think.

Posted by Connor Kirkwood (Member # 5371) on 08-06-2010, 04:26 AM:

We had pretty much the same problem with our print of Girl with the Dragon Tattoo at more-or-less the same part of the film.

When it was shipped to us, the print looked great up until the last reel, which had several splices throughout the last half. My projectionist said that the splices looked well made, didn't tent and didn't stick, so he left them on.

After the first brain wrap around this section, he replaced all of the original splices. After the second wrap, he inspected the entire reel and couldn't find any other issues. We ended up having to have someone looking over the print when that reel went though, and it exhibited the same symptoms that Joe described EVERY SINGLE TIME. The print wrapped three times in all, always within the last five minutes of footage before the end credits.

For the record, the first brain wrap described above was the first one we'd had at our theater in over a year.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-06-2010, 09:41 AM:

Damn Swedes! [Smile]

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 08-06-2010, 01:05 PM:

quote: Connor Kirkwood
....the print looked great up until the last reel, which had several splices throughout the last half. My projectionist said that the splices looked well made, didn't tent and didn't stick, so he left them on.

Hmmm, sounds like they made post-release print editorial changes and the splices were done by the depots...Joe does your print have a lot of splices in that reel?

I have seen the "lab splices" not sealed tight on the edges and grab the sprocket holes as it unwinds.

In Connor's case I would demand a replacement reel.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-06-2010, 01:27 PM:

No splices in mine. His print probably had splices from a previous theater who was having issues in that spot.

Posted by Justin B. Martin (Member # 5817) on 08-07-2010, 12:26 PM:

quote: John Plasket
Wouldn't the stock listed at IMDB and American Cinematographer reflect what it was shot on, not what is being used for distribution?

AC and IMDb list both. The best and most reputable of IMDb's user-submitted info would and should come from technical references like AC. TGWTDT's shoot and print stocks are both here, although Ian is correct re: differing stocks.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-20-2010, 03:10 AM:

After our 20th week of running it, we finally lost Girl with the Dragon Tattoo tonight. As I broke it down, I noticed the print was sticking to itself like so:

Note how it is coming off of the roll in the bottom example. That's what it was doing. I have never seen this happen before. The film was very splotchy on both sides, though the splotches did not seem to project on screen. It looked fine... very good, in fact. Usually our films have streaks from the Filmguard upon close inspection, but this one just wanted to be splotchy. This means it definitely wasn't Kodak and likely not Fuji. I am 99% certain it was Agfa unless it is some sort of other cheap-ass brand of film stock.

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 08-20-2010, 08:12 PM:

I had a reel that was kept in a damp location for a while. It tended to stick to itself, and was splotchy looking. After keeping it in a dryer location for some time, it was better, but not "normal". It still tended to be sticky and splotchy looking. It must have picked up a good bit of moisture, and did not want to give it up easily. I wonder if the stock that was used when the last reel was printed was damp?

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-21-2010, 12:51 PM:

Don't forget that Agfa has been through several bankruptcies and corporate restructurings for years, since about 2004. The company has been split into three divisions. It is little more than a multinational holding company. Agfa is a shadow of its former self.

Even though you can still by "Agfa" branded film it might or might not have been actually produced by Agfa, itself. They do a lot of subcontracting and "rebranding." Some film sold by Agfa is actually made by companies like Adox.

Although many European film labs favor the home team (as well they should) Agfa film might not be up to the same quality standards it once was. I'm not saying that Agfa film is bad but any company that's had as many ups and downs as they have is bound to suffer, even if only short term.

Bottom line: If your print is made on Agfa film, you might expect this kind of variability. Further, if your film was poorly processed or sent to you "green" your situation could be just a symptom of a larger problem.

I think Joe's latest observation confirms that the problem is do to film it is bad, somehow.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-21-2010, 02:45 PM:

Or film that does not react well to Filmguard. But like I said, it looked great onscreen.

I don't recall the print being green. Felt like any other normal new print when I got it. I did have a green print of something else recently and that didn't pose any problems... still didn't like it, though.

Posted by Connor Kirkwood (Member # 5371) on 08-25-2010, 10:17 PM:

We just opened The Girl Who Played with Fire, the sequel to The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, and it is exhibiting the EXACT SAME ISSUES that Joe and I had with the first film. Multiple layers of film are trying to feed through the brain because they are sticking together, three or four layers at a time.

Still looks great onscreen.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-25-2010, 10:24 PM:

My print of Girl Who Played With Fire is on Kodak stock.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 08-26-2010, 07:28 AM:

An old cure for "green prints" was to have a small stick of Paraffin canning wax and to touch the edges of the film with it as they enter the gate. This tends to eliminate the sticky nature of the film.

Canning wax is available in the canning section of your market and is sold in bars from which you can cut small pieces. One bar is about 1,000 year's supply.

KEN

Posted by Hsin-ning Chang (Member # 4961) on 10-11-2010, 12:46 PM:

This is the second week we have THE GIRL WHO PLAYED WITH FIRE and it causes many many troubles to us with the same problems-- the whole film is so damn sticky. When it came here, we already found that there are many tapes especially towards the end of the movie. Also, it was dusty in many places (usually we'll get film that looks dusty when it's almost reel change, yet this one just dusty in random places). My guessing is, the theater who played this print earlier might go through lots troubles too.

The print has already caused many brian wraps to us. We have tried several ways to prevent it, such as wearing a white glove and just use finger to separate the layers of film that stick together. Yet, we have only one projectionist at a time to run three auditoriums, so sometime we got to leave this print for minutes. About two of ten times we left, it wrapped... T.T We also ran it through the film cleaner with filmguard many times. The pads of the cleaner look green and purple afterward (But like what Joe and Connor said, the image looks totally fine on the screen). And, although cleaning it seems to help, but the stickiness come back frequently.

We are four young projectionists work with pretty old equipments in an University theaters. Two of us have two-year projecting experience and the other two have one-year and then three-months. (I know the whole situation sounds just bad, but we are working very hard to do things right). This print and the brain wrap just gave us nightmares... other than filmguard it, do you think is there anything I can do to make the situation better?? [Frown]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-11-2010, 01:46 PM:

One of the old tricks in some of the kodak books of the ast was to get camphor wax

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 10-11-2010, 01:50 PM:

Is this one of those times when a very liberal application of Film Guard to the edges of the print (wiping it on the film pack with a saturated cloth) would be beneficial? Brad, what do you think of that idear?

Posted by Hsin-ning Chang (Member # 4961) on 10-11-2010, 02:54 PM:

wow!! Camphor wax! I'll test it on an old trailer. If I could find a kind that works fine and does not harm the film, I will try to apply that on the print with the film cleaner (excited). Thank you Gordon!

Thank you Tony! we have been doing that before we run the print almost everyday. We did that on another print that has a bit static too, it worked pretty well with the other print. With this one, I think it helps but there are still really sticky parts that do not separate.