Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Smart MOD IIB: Good or not good?

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-10-2010, 10:57 AM:

Quick answer to a quick question: "What do you think about the Smart MOD IIB cinema sound processor?"

I have a reason for asking this question but I don't want to influence any answers in one direction or another by telling you why. I promise I'll tell you the reason when I get a few answers.

T.I.A. [Smile]

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-10-2010, 12:10 PM:

Depends on the model you're asking about, I guess.

I've had several of the "-DIT" drive-in variants. I found that having them here was somewhat better than running unprocessed analog tracks, but that's about it.

The decoders don't track SR all that well... certainly nowhere near a Dolby card (did the Copy Cat do better? Wish I could have seen one). I suppose that's to be expected, but I hoped for better performance.

In the models I had, the external input offered for a pre-amped microphone somehow managed to polarize the L/R output in opposite directions. That was another gripe... a drive-in processor that needed a preamp for a mic input. Being unbalanced, this issue required a balanced external preamp, so opposite polarities could be fed to the L/R inputs of the box.

The power supplies weren't all that clean. There was audible hum in the box, and yes... that's where I tracked the source. 3 in one building, one in another theatre, all with the same problem.

I had some problems with bad soldering on two backplanes, requiring total disassembly to get to them. The company admitted they had some issues here. Apparently, they were teaching new "techs" how to solder by having them practice on the boxes I got. Past that admission however, I got little help from Smart on this... Had to hunt & peck through the things to find the bad connections.

The box did have a convenient control face. Inputs were easily selected, and it provided access on the terminal strip for control by automation. Dual analog inputs and backplane control would make for an easy changeover installation. Nonsync auto-fades.

Can't say about its surround decoding or EQ... never used 'em.

For the models I used, I'd give it a 'C'. Things around here improved dramatically after I installed CP65s.

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 08-10-2010, 02:34 PM:

I must say the Mod8 is the worst processor i have come across!
If it weighed more it might make a good boat anchor?
To be fair it passes Dolby Digital and DTS well and mono sounds ok.
The first few weeks when it was new it was passable but it quickly lost matrix steering and sounded like we had blown speakers!

Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 08-10-2010, 02:43 PM:

Interesting that you mention it. We have three of them, and as far as I'm concerned, they have seen better days. Were are pulling one this week that can't hold an EQ and replacing it with a JSD-80.

Plan on pulling the other two shortly.

I'm not a fan, and never have been. And I'm a guy with a tin ear to begin with. [Wink]

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-10-2010, 04:32 PM:

Okay! Thanks for the opinions! [Smile]

Here's what's going on:

We are considering an upgrade from our current Smart processor to a Dolby processor. We have spent a lot of time and trouble and money, over the years, trying to wring the best sound out of the system as we can. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to make much improvement.

We have replaced speakers. We have changed the system in various ways. I recently did a complete A-chain and B-chain on the entire system. The system is aligned as well as I can and I dare say that it is aligned as well as it can be.

The sound is better but not nearly good enough.

It is my understanding that the Mod-IIB might have been a decent piece of equipment back in its day. It was meant to be a cheap, serviceable piece of equipment without a lot of bells and whistles. Unfortunately, times have changed. Movies have changed and the way movies are recorded has changed. In the current times with Dolby Surround, Dolby Digital and other advanced sound formats, the Smart processor just can't measure up anymore. Some might say that it never really did measure up in the first place. It was a cheap processor meant for drive-ins and small theaters to get on their feet so they didn't have to break the bank buying uber-expensive equipment.

The main complaint we have is poor dialog.
Dialog just sounds like crap. Most dialog sounds muffled, almost as if the actors are talking with a mouth full of food.

It is my understanding that one of the most notable shortcomings of the Smart Mod-II B is the clear reproduction of dialog. No matter what you do, no matter how well you tune it, it is not possible to get it to reproduce stellar dialog.

We have a difficult venue, sound wise. It is a very "live" concert hall. It has hard surfaced walls and, regardless of the type of production, concert, stage play or movie, any kind of recorded sound playback is difficult, even with the best equipment. A musician can stand on the stage, playing a violin without amplification and it can be heard, perfectly, at the back of the hall. A singer can sing from center stage and people can hear him, even from the nosebleed seats in the balcony. If you play plain music from a CD player, the sound system does well but it's not as good as live sound. If there is a concert on stage like a jazz band you have to be careful how you set up your speakers and mix your sound or else it will begin to sound "tinny" and muffled. When you show a movie, it's even worse.

It is my belief that the Smart Mod-IIB is not up to the task. We're not a typical movie theater and, even in typical situations, the Smart would barely be up to the task even if it was set up perfectly.

I am advising my boss to purchase a new sound processor and he wants assurance that it will make an improvement.

I have done just about everything I can to convince him that a new processor would improve the sound in this venue, short of doing a rain dance. If I thought I would do any good I WOULD.

What I need is corroboration of my opinion that replacing the Smart Mod-IIB is what we need to do.

So, what do you all say?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-10-2010, 05:25 PM:

I know of a theatre that is very similar--live music sounds great, but movies sound like crap. Worse, film soundtracks sound different in different parts of the house (balcony, orchestra, and under balcony all sounded different).

Somewhat annoyingly, the old mono film sound system (still there) gave the best dialogue intelligibility. It was just an Altec cabinet with a single 515 driver and a 288 horn, powered by a 50w Kelmar system.

At various festivals and events, I and others experimented with different combinations of equipment. Straight left/right was the worst. L/C/R/S/sub. with a CP65 with real SR and 15" PA speakers was OK (real cat. 350s were noticeably better than the fake-SR cat. 222 SR/A). I also found that bumping the center channel by 1-2 dB made dialogue sound significantly better.

I never had a chance to try an L/C/R/S Dolby system with real cinema speakers (JBL, QSC, Altec, etc.). I also never tried mono with SR (which would probably be an improvement over the Kelmar system). I also would have liked to have tried some sort of stage treatment (like flying fiberglass insulation behind the stage spekaers).

I guess that what I am trying to say here (and I am not an acoustics expert) is that there may not be a good solution, or, if there is one, I would be very interested in hearing it. I was never able to convince anyone to pay to have someone with experience with cinema sound come out and listen to the room, unfortunately.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-10-2010, 07:46 PM:

I know that it's a tough room.

You should have seen the cold stare I got last week when I took my boss that they only way to truly solve the problem would be to put sound insulation on all the walls and the ceiling.

Music can sound great in that room. A jazz concert on the stage can sound as good as you could ever hope it would. Even when you play a movie with lots of music or a Met Opera, the sound is good. It's just the damned dialog that stinks.

I have tried lots of things that you have mentioned. Playing in mono often helps but many times it doesn't. The best sounding movies are older titles that were recorded in Dolby Stereo. (Not Dolby SR.) Dual track mono prints play reasonably well. I even played a single track mono print once which sounded decent. I was surprised that it played at all on a stereo, dual track sound head.

The worst prints are Dolby SR but that varies. Foreign titles are often better than current mainstream, Hollywood fare but, then again, they are often foreign language with subtitles so we don't get too many complaints about those movies. When it comes down to it, I think it has to to with the mix and not whether the movie was recorded Dolby SR.

Aggressive mixes in mainstream Hollywood movies are the worst. We played Star Trek last winter. A lot of people liked the movie but I just cringed whenever there was a battle scene. The dialog and the sound effects and the music just blended together into this loud cacophony of screeching noises.

I don't want perfect. I just want good.
Theoretically, I wouldn't mind mono but a lot of people want to hear the program in stereo. This especially goes for the Met Operas.

When it comes to the opera, people are strangely nit-picky about sound.
Opera is, somehow, sacrosanct and people always want to hear "pin-drop" acoustics when, in reality, you wouldn't actually get that even if you were sitting front row at the Met.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-10-2010, 11:09 PM:

Well there are several ways of looking at it
the mod2b did a tolerable job for the price point it was designed around
it did offer room eq a ganged fader a decent matrix a preamp that was designed around solar cells that did require a work around for reverse scan or jax lights and acceptable noise reductions
Hum has not been an issue I have had since the powersupply was just brute force and the regulation was on each board
in the many i deal with dialogue has not been the issue usually it is contacts that are getting bad or chips that are ageing

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 08-11-2010, 01:47 AM:

If its just analogue sound you seek I would double recommend the JSD80 from USL. Not only its a future proof processor, the SR and A noise reduction is excellent. I have the DTS equivalent at a college venue and it never let me down. They mainly run european films but the clarity of the speech is excellent and its a very demanding room. It has a lot of advanced features you would not expect at a processor that price range. Your other solution of course is to go Digital with DD and the CP650. The last thing is that you cannot make it worse! [Big Grin]

Edit: And in any case, SmartDev is dead. I have two cinemas with the Mod 7 processor and both of them have problems. Looking into changing them with CP45s I have.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-11-2010, 02:23 AM:

quote: Randy Stankey
Here's what's going on:

We are considering an upgrade from our current Smart processor to a Dolby processor.

You may have other issues that'll need attention. But if a CD player sounds good enough in your place, and the Smart box doesn't compare well, a new Dolby or USL proc should make a big difference.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-11-2010, 10:28 AM:

You have two issues:

1. A room not designed to cinema acoustics standards (& film that expects that.)

2. A less-than-stellar processor.

I would suggest a real CP-650 along with digital readers. This gives you a "great source." At that point you will almost certainly have to corrupt the sound some to get it to play in your difficult house.

What you are doing now is a dual trouble matrix. Louis

Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 08-11-2010, 10:57 AM:

What speakers are you using for film sound? For a live room like you have, you want to have the highest directivity possible, and aim the speakers carefully so they cover just the audience and avoid reflective surfaces, particularly ones that will reflect toward the audience.

The problem with multipurpose rooms is that a room that's good for unamplified live music (orchestra or even opera) is poor for speech and recorded music playback, and vice versa. There's just really no good way to be good at everything.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 08-11-2010, 11:02 AM:

Yes there is. Use the Renkus Heinz Iconyx range and you'll be suprised.

Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 08-11-2010, 11:09 AM:

Demetris, I think those speakers have too-wide horizontal coverage for this application.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 08-11-2010, 01:04 PM:

Not so fast there Robert.

Remember, we are talking about a room not optimized for cinema sound..so you need to think and be willing to go "outside the box" and take a hard look at what the specific problems are, and what the best gear would be to address the problem. If non-cinema spec speakers would help in improving the dialog clarity, then do it. If going outside the standard cinema EQ curve will improve the sound then do it. (I had to do the same at UC Irvine's HIB 100 room, pics up on the Warehouse here soon as they post them, due to the room being too live.)

Randy's main issues are a sub-standard processor that is failing, and room not designed for film.

I second the idea of an Ultra*Stereo processor, even one of the older analog JS series would be a huge improvement on the front end.

After that, take a look at different speakers to help out with the dialog if necessary..and DON'T be afraid to "mix and match" speakers on the L/C/R if need be.

Accept the fact that the room will never be THX certifiable, and do whatever it takes no matter how weird to get the best possible sound.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-11-2010, 01:43 PM:

The reverb time is the usual culprit in bad dialogue reproduction and good music reproduction
You may want to use a more localized speaker coverage and restrict the seating

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-11-2010, 03:50 PM:

My point is that you start with the best sound possible and then you can PLAY!

Raising the center 1-5 db is good. Strict eq on L & R is good. You may wish to "optimise" the center channel as well. Cut the bass, peak the midrange and maybe boost over 5k. The sound that may sound shrill as a center only, may well blend well with top quality L & R.

Just a few hints from along the way. Louis

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-11-2010, 06:18 PM:

also remember to increase the slope of the HF rolloff in large rooms

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 08-11-2010, 07:23 PM:

It sounds like echo may be the problem. Aim the speakers at the audience as much as possible. Clothing is soft, and will absorb sound. The back wall is usually the biggest problem, put a rug on it. If the floor is concrete, that can be a problem too.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-11-2010, 07:45 PM:

We worked on it some more today.

I rolled some of our orchestra shells in behind the speakers to make a baffle wall. This did help. It cleaned up a lot of the icky sounds echoing from back stage and it provided a fairly large (almost 5 dB) increase in sound levels.

I have made sure that the speakers are not hitting the walls as much as possible. They are aimed, pretty much, right down into the audience.

I redid the A-chain. I understand that if you want to get even "passable" sound out of the Mod-IIB the A-chain has to be dead nuts. I think I've got the best A-chain I've ever seen on this thing.

I cranked the center channel up about 2 dB above the left and right.

Then the sound contractor that works on our theater sound came and helped me tweak the B-chain. We started with the regular curve then we fiddled from there. Knocked down some around the 500Hz range and rolled off the top a little bit steeper than usual.

We got it sounding "pretty good." (Emphasis in the quotation marks.)
If it's straight dialog and nothing else, it's intelligible but if it mixes in with music or sound effects dialog gets lost pretty quickly. Regardless of how well we tune it (and we tuned and retuned it about three times today) the dialog is just murky. Even if you're standing right in front of the speaker, it's just not crystal clear.

I have done just about the best A-chain anybody can do. Today we got the B-chain set just about as well as anybody could do.

At this point, I think we have that thing tuned just about as well as anybody could ever do.

It is hard to produce recorded/amplified sound in this room under any conditions but I think we have accounted for that as much as possible with the equipment we have.

I am working on getting a new processor. I am hoping we'll be getting a CP650. Cross my fingers! [Wink]

I am aware that, regardless of what processor we put in there, it will probably not be possible to get crystal clear sound in that room without some major changes to the room, such as putting sound insulation on all the walls. That ain't going to happen.

One thing I did notice with the Mod-IIB when I was A-chaining it... Noise!
Those preamps are NOISY!
I noticed quite a bit of noise on the scope while I was working. I couldn't get rid of it, no matter what.
I totally disconnected the solar cell lines.
I totally disconnected the amplifier lines.
I shut down all the power to everything else in the rack except the processor.

Looking at it on the scope, I saw about 50 mV.
(Scope set to .1V per division. - Noise was about half a square tall.)

I disconnected the scope from the processor and shorted the probes to ground. Flatline.

I think, right there, with those noisy preamps, I'm shoveling shit against the tide no matter what I do!

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 08-12-2010, 12:51 AM:

quote: Robert Minichino
Demetris, I think those speakers have too-wide horizontal coverage for this application.

The benefit of the Iconyx range speakers is the digitally steerable array otherwise refered to as `beams`

EDIT: I accidentaly doublehit the post button. Can a moderator please delete this post

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 08-12-2010, 12:53 AM:

quote: Robert Minichino
Demetris, I think those speakers have too-wide horizontal coverage for this application.

The benefit of the Iconyx range speakers is the digitally steerable array otherwise refered to as `sound beams' aimed specifically at the audience ear level thus avoiding reverberation to the max. I have installed several Iconyx range systems in Cyprus mainly in churches which are very reverb demanding and also in entertainment leisures e.g. Bingo, ball room e.t.c. and they are really magnificent as to how they operate. Now with the IC Live series, the gap between announcements/speech and av entertainment is 0d although you must be willing to spend a heft of a lot of money for those BUT they WILL do the job.
Demetris

Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 08-13-2010, 07:10 AM:

The MODIIB was decent, for the money, and would concur that it is a limiting factor in the quality you desire.

I would suggest moving a drape upstage of the speakers rather than the orchestra shell. Shells are often designed to reflect and redirect sound rather than absorb it. A large stagehouse designed for live performance has the effect of making one giant speaker out of everything upstage of the proscenium. Moving the L&R speakers a few feet stage left or stage right could have a significant effect on dialogue intelligibility when background music is playing if you think of it this way. Any dialogue leaking into the surrounds from the MODIIB matrix may not appear as an incorrect sound source but as a subtle echo that is confusing the ear.

For fun - and since you have opportunity to experiment - I would try setting up as a center-surround experience or utilizing your sound reinforcement PA for left&right instead and making darn sure that there is no dialogue present in the surrounds

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-13-2010, 08:23 AM:

We have a mid-stage black traveler. That needs to be in because, without it, light reflects back through the screen and causes double images.

There is a 6 foot black border that comes in directly behind the speakers.

Both of those help a lot. In fact, I say they are a requirement.

I have experimented with the orchestra shell. It does make an improvement but, you are right, they are too hard. They produce a very "bright" sound. There is almost a 6 dB increase in sound level with them in.

We are going to do some more experiments in the future. We might install baffle "wings" on the sides of the speaker carts and insulate them with fiberglass sound insulation.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 08-13-2010, 01:31 PM:

Randy, the baffle wings will help out a LOT. Do that asap.

But you really need to replace that processor..you can't polish [bs]

(despite what the Mythbusters say.)

Get a cheap Ultra*Stereo JS series like I suggested some posts back. It will solve a LOT of your current issues.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-13-2010, 09:41 PM:

I am working on getting a new processor right now. The comments in this thread have helped with getting that issue through certain people's skulls.

I would like an Ultra-Stereo. I have worked with them and I know how to install and operate them pretty well. However, I am trying to get a Dolby. I have a couple of good reasons.

First, we present the Met Opera. A Dolby processor has more capability to play the sound that comes in from the satellite. A Dolby would be more "future proof."

Second, whatever processor we buy, it will likely be a long time before we buy another. We bought this Smart processor just to get us by until we can get something else. This "temporary" processor ended up being used for fifteen years. I don't want to buy something that will last a few years then have to fight for another ten years to get the upgrade we should have bought in the first place.

When it comes to spending money, things can get very strange around here!

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 08-14-2010, 02:32 AM:

The USL JSD80D is as future proof as the CP650 model. It does provide also SPDIF as well as Digital input from a D-Cinema server so in case you are not wanting the DD on your 35mm projectors and just want to go analogue there is little reason not to go with the JSD80 unit. And not only that, the newer models (as well as an upgrade to the older ones) do support the 7.1 audio mixing now enchanced in mainly D-Cinema applications.
Demetris

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 08-14-2010, 04:25 AM:

I recently did A & B chain in one concert hall, 1800 seats with 2,7 sec reverberation time, so mainly intended and projected for live orchestra performance. I was think sound will be very bad, specially dialogue, also they have CP500 there analog only with Vic8 normal front scan reader. Left and Right speakers are JBL Vetec line array, for center there are four JBL active (don't recall type) placed above screen, which is installed in front of stage. As room is very vide, this four center speakers are aimed down and spreaded to cover all seats....after doing A chain I did do B chain with more aimed curve for big room, they did play some movie material and did tweak EQ more, even with CP500 I did get very decent results. Problem is when sound is loud the room amplifies it even more, they have also surround there, but I did think is maybe better not to use surround, as it will mess up more.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-14-2010, 10:06 AM:

I agree on getting rid of the Mod 2B ! I feel that you would be better off with SRD capabilities in your instance since the majority of films carry the SRD track... Except Joe's Indian films.. If your budget can't swing it then go the JSD-80 route or then look towards an older analog JS processor but expect to pay at least 50% of the price of a new JSD80 for a clean JS200.. At least the USLstuff is D-Cinema compatable while he Smart is strictly a 4.1processor.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-14-2010, 12:24 PM:

I would like to have SRD/Dolby Digital for fallback purposes.

1) We often get scratchy soundtracks. SRD doesn't have that problem.
2) Every once in a while, we'll have a sound problem because of a bad sound track.
3) Redundancy is always good to have.

As I said, I'm trying to get as much processor as I can now because, later it will be harder to spend ANY money on an upgrade in the future.

If I can't get a Dolby I'll take whatever I can but I have to try to get as much as I can now or else risk getting nothing.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 08-15-2010, 04:30 PM:

Randy, I'm going to buck the trend here and disagree on the processor. I do not think a better processor is going to help you very much here.

The number one thing you can do to improve dialogue is to improve your speakers.

In our horrible live room, we installed a JBL PD5322 (bought from Steve!) and it made a huge difference. The precision directivity line works pretty well in live rooms, I'm told.

I guess you now have a 2360A horn for your medium/high frequencies. I'm not so sure how that compares to the 5322's 2431H with a PT-H64HF waveguide.

I think you should be able to do tests with single-channel audio from an external source (bypass the SMART box) for center channel audibility. Heck, you can just use the center channel output from a DVD player with discrete outputs (this has good repeatibility and low noise characteristics).

You are currently using a passive crossover, right? Again, I would strongly suggest you try bi-amping before you try a new processor. Cannibilize your surround amps or one of your left/right amps for the testing. Heck, good mono (or center/surround) is better than bad stereo!

I also suspect you can borrow a CP55 or a CP65 from somebody (the best I could do would be to lend you a CP50, but I bet there are better-equipped people here) if you just had to try a new processor.

Oh: and people will tell you that you have to have your screen channels matched in terms of speakers. I think that's a load of bunk. Yeah, it would be a good idea to match your left and right speakers, and have your surrounds mostly match, but the center channel doesn't need to match left and right. It is mixed completely differently and a radically different kind of sound (dialog, not mostly music/effects). And the room's characteristics for center differ from its characteristics for left and right. In a perfect world, yes, match your speakers. But first, concentrate on getting a center channel that sounds good that you can live with. Then let all the rest follow.

--jhawk

p.s.: sorry for being out to lunch when you first posted this.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 08-15-2010, 11:32 PM:

And John I am going to disagree with your opening statement..why? Because the best speakers in the world are still going to sound like shit if that's what's coming in to them...in fact, if you stop and think about it, a higher-quality speaker is gonna be even more revealing of the flaws in the front end!!

He absolutely needs a better processor to start with..and your suggested test method is a great idea, and will prove that the processor is shit. [thumbsup]

And I am glad to see you also agree that matching the front speakers (especially in this case) is not a must..in fact better results will be found with the right mix of stage speaker characteristics.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-16-2010, 12:04 PM:

Does the Smart box sound _that_ bad, though? I agree with jhawk that the original poster really should test this with a CD or DVD player (preferably with an actual film soundtrack, and ideally with a print of the same film that can be run through the projector and played through the SMART box). This would cost approximately $0 and would answer the question fairly quickly.

Another thought: are the speakers located inches behind the screen, or farther back than that? They need to be almost touching the screen surface, otherwise sound quality will suffer noticeably.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-16-2010, 02:08 PM:

Scott: good point (screen vs. speaker.)

Yes the Smart is that bad, especially in the 4 channel version and with fake SR. The drive in model leaves out MOST of the odd boards. The SR being the only "problem."

In trying to articulate a system, you are trying to solve as many problems you can before dealing with the 8000 pound gorilla: live acoustics. Louis

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 08-16-2010, 07:50 PM:

Amen Louis!

Another way to put it is you can't make chicken salad out of Chicken Sh*t!

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 08-16-2010, 09:03 PM:

Oh, I hope this isn't too off topic, but I have some speculation.

So, we know that in difficult-to-hear houses, mono often sounds better. On a Dolby processor, mono plays only through the center channel speaker, not through the L/R speakers.

I also wonder about bypass mode. I have no idea what it does on the SMART processor, but on Dolby processors, it plays a weighted sum of center+left/right out all channels.

One of my (again, speculation) expectations here in live rooms is that having the same signal coming from multiple points means that each can be softer and ultimately more intelligable. Of course, you also have phase cancellation effects between the speakers that can be a problem.

So I wonder if the SMART has a bypass mode and how film sources sound in it.

Though what I really wonder if if Randy might not be better off mixing some fraction of his center-channel signal into his left and right channels, so he can reduce the volume of the actual center-channel speaker. Has anyone experimented with this in difficult rooms, and does it help?

Obviously it's not a stock configuration for a processor. And of course Randy has his MediaMatrix that I know he hates, which might help with this sort of thing?

Again, I'd advocate doing careful and repeatable experiments that are independent of a film A chain.

--jhawk

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-16-2010, 09:28 PM:

the processor will not correct a bad room nor will a good room will correct a bad processor
In an envirment like this a competent engineer should realy evaluate the entire system as a whole not proceed in a willy nilly fashion

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 08-16-2010, 09:46 PM:

I would like to add that the best speakers cannot make a bad processor sound better,in fact they should show it up even more!
A saying in Linn high end audio is source first!

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 08-17-2010, 12:01 AM:

"I also wonder about bypass mode. I have no idea what it does on the SMART processor, but on Dolby processors, it plays a weighted sum of center+left/right out all channels."

The CP55/65 hearing impaired output is a weighted sum of Left, Center, Right as John says. The bypass out is I believe the same audio out spread out to LCR so the channel levels depend on how the LCR amps are set relative to each other.

The reason Dolby CP55/65 put bypass mono audio into LCR, was in case the unit was put into manual bypass because of a dead center speaker, amp, etc., instead of an internal fault in the cinema processor. This way, you had two chances out of three to have audio.

I do concur with the view normal mono audio should only come from one speaker as multiple arrival times of the same audio to your ear can only make dialog harder to understand, whether it's from different speakers, walls, or ceiling.

Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 08-18-2010, 09:50 PM:

quote: Gordon McLeod
In an envirment like this a competent engineer should realy evaluate the entire system as a whole not proceed in a willy nilly fashion

And an acoustical consultant

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 08-19-2010, 12:56 PM:

quote: Victor Liorentas
I would like to add that the best speakers cannot make a bad processor sound better,in fact they should show it up even more!

I think someone already said that... [Roll Eyes]

quote: Some long-haired freak on here..
....Because the best speakers in the world are still going to sound like shit if that's what's coming in to them...in fact, if you stop and think about it, a higher-quality speaker is gonna be even more revealing of the flaws in the front end!!....

Deja vu all over again... [Big Grin]

quote: Gordon McLeod
In an envirment like this a competent engineer should realy evaluate the entire system as a whole not proceed in a willy nilly fashion

Gordon, I agree 100%, but in Randy's situation, where he can't even spend the money on speakers or a new processor do you really think the owner is going to pony up the money to PAY for that evaluation? A full acoustic study of that room is gonna be very pricey..unless you want to volunteer to do it for free. [Smile]

I consider myself good, but not good enough to do a full acoustic evaluation on Randy's room. All I could bring to the table would be past experiences with similar rooms and a lot of the cures that worked for me in the past were based on semi-educated guesses on my part..so I'd say my successful results were a blend of luck and knowledge.

So that is why Randy is asking us for advice and hopefully he can convince the owner to do what we suggest.

Finally, the multi-purpose uses of his room will pretty much make a "perfect" solution impossible.

If/when the UC Irvine pics I sent in ever appear in the warehouse you'll see (on a smaller scale) a room with some of the same problems..with some additional handicaps.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 08-19-2010, 01:54 PM:

Tony Bandiera Jr said: "quote: Some long-haired freak on here.."

Now who can argue with that? Huh? HA! [evil]

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 08-19-2010, 07:50 PM:

HEY RANDY WE ARE DYING HERE!

please re-inject some info into the discussion. How is it going? What have you tried? How can we give you more useless advice? [Cool]

--jhawk

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-19-2010, 09:05 PM:

Sorry... I received some very bad news in the last week. I haven't been feeling very happy.

I have been trying very hard to keep the horns pointed toe-in so they don't hit the wall but next time I get the system out I'm going to double check that.

Generally, you guys are right. There is little to nothing that can be done to make the cinema sound "perfect" in this room. It's just not possible.
As I said, I told the boss that the only thing that can be done is to insulate all the walls and ceilings. Even then, it won't be 100% because of the big, empty cavern of the stage house behind the screen.

You should have seen the cold stare I got!

I do want the CP650, mostly because I finally want to get a Dolby processor in there. I do think it will make a big difference.

Although almost any good processor will be better than the Smart, I want a Dolby for several reasons. First, I know how to work on Dolby. I am not an expert, by any means but I generally understand what makes them tick.

I like the Ultra*Stereo processors. I have spent a lot of time working on them, too but I think the Dolby has more to offer. It can have built-in Dolby Digital by adding the card(s) and plugging in the reader. It can decode AC3 and other formats. And, even if I end up switching to mono, I know how to make a Dolby processor go into mono mode that still sounds good. Other processors do that too but, as I said, I know how to make a Dolby do that. I have done it.

Remember, we have the Met Opera via satellite. We also play programs on Blu-Ray and DVD. The Dolby can decode the satellite's signal, the Blu-Ray and the DVD without much trouble at all. I know how to make it do that.

I'm working on getting a Dolby. If I can arrange a good deal, I'm sure we'll have it soon. It will take a lot of weight off my shoulders in terms of ensuring I have the best sound I can produce under the circumstances.

But, unfortunately, I just got a 50% pay cut last week.
If I can't figure out some way to make ends meet this whole issue might just be moot.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-20-2010, 06:26 AM:

Randy, please note that Brad has listed he has some CP650s for sale in the "For Sale" forum. It might be a good way to get a bargain on the CP650...and it will sound the same as a new one!

Steve

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 08-20-2010, 08:12 AM:

quote: Randy Stankey
But, unfortunately, I just got a 50% pay cut last week.

Then do 50% less work.

One of these days, those idiot bosses will realise that it is the ground level workers who give the fat cats their company's reputation. Good pay = good workers = good reputation.
Bad pay = bad workers = bad reputation.

Still, I guess they have to pay for new company cars somehow. [fu]

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-20-2010, 08:17 AM:

If things don't get better I'll be doing 100% less work there and 100% more work some place else.

I'm already printing the resumes, hence the silence except for an occasional random comment.

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 08-20-2010, 08:23 AM:

Good on you Randy.

From what you've posted here, you have gone above and beyond the call, and to cop that kind of cut just isn't fair- to the patrons who expect quality, but particularly to you and your skill base.

I'm willing to bet both nuts that there are venues crying out for your kind of effort, and are willing to value that accordingly.

Best of luck, mate, and I hope you get some decent recognition. [thumbsup]

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-20-2010, 10:36 AM:

I just had a nice visit with the operator at the Tom Ridge Environmental Center's "Big Green Screen" theater last evening.
We had a nice chat for about 20-30 minutes and I got a tour of the booth. He said to drop off the resume. Already have a dozen of them printed up.

Tom Ridge Center website: http://www.trecpi.org/

I have called the GM at Cinemark Tinseltown where I used to work. As you know, payroll is directly proportional to the number of butts they put in seats. Now that we're going into the fall doldrums, there isn't much room. I am on his list, through. I'll be dropping off a resume to make it official.

But, honestly, there just isn't much more for movies in this town. There is a 6-screen dollar theater but that is owned by Cinemark, too. I'll drop off a resume there but I don't have a lot of expectations.

After that, I don't know what to do. I might have to commute or travel for work.

Ever since last week life has felt like a toothache that won't go away.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 08-20-2010, 10:55 AM:

Randy I hope you go somewhere where your dedication will be appreciated. Now you can hook the reverse scan directly on the amp of the centre speaker without any pre-amp! [evil]

Demetris

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 08-20-2010, 11:08 AM:

Randy,
If I can be of any help at Presque Isle, let me know. I don't remember, but I think thats a Kinotone machine in there. I spent a few days there training the operaters on the sound system after the install. I didn't do the install, just the training on the sound system.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 08-20-2010, 01:37 PM:

quote:
If I can be of any help at Presque Isle, let me know. I don't remember, but I think thats a Kinotone machine in there.

I don't think I could trust the help from someone who can't spell the brand name right. [Big Grin]

Just tweaking your tail Richard. [Big Grin]

Randy I work with Kinoton machines and can also help you out if needed. Best of luck in your job search.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-20-2010, 01:37 PM:

I got a tour of the booth last night.

It's a Kinoton 4-deck platter and a Kinoton 35/70 projector.
It's real nice!

It'll take me some time to get up to speed but I don't think it'll be a problem. I'll probably need a check ride and some break-in time but the learning curve looks quite manageable.

It's probably not going to be full time. That's why I hadn't applied there sooner. But, now I have nothing to lose.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 08-20-2010, 01:40 PM:

Cool deal, you'll like working there. The platter is one of the best, especially for 70mm.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-20-2010, 02:28 PM:

Randy... BEst of luck to you where ever you end up working. You're one of the few that shows he really cares about the work he does! You will go far in a short time!

Mark

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-20-2010, 03:40 PM:

Thanks! [Smile]

It's pretty hard not to be depressed, right now.

I just dropped off my resume at the Tom Ridge Center.
I dropped off a resume at my old job, Tinseltown and at the dollar theater. I don't know what will come of those. We're heading into the fall doldrums. Payroll at movie theaters is tight at this point. I can't expect to just walk back into my old theater and pick up right where I left off.

I did get a tip that Cinemark might be recruiting some engineers in this area but I have yet to investigate that information.

I'd love to get that position. I'm feeling a lack of confidence right now. I've been out of the business in a real sense for years. I know I'm pretty rusty. It took me a long time to tune up the A-chain on my Simplex when I just did it. It's something I used to be able to do, top to bottom in 15 minutes.

I know... It's practice. I'll get the groove back.

Then I think about all the digital shit I have to catch up on.
I'll learn it.

It's just hard to keep my spirits up right now. [Frown]

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 08-21-2010, 01:48 AM:

Randy look how excited you look at your avatar pic [Big Grin]

How can you be feeling down. Listen, all troubles are made for something good to come out or at least that is what I want to believe. People with dedication like most in these forums are hard to find and you are not an exception. You might have a hard time at first finding a rewarding job but when you get into it I feel confident you will be recognised sooner than you think. Keep your spirit up and don't feel dismayed. [thumbsup]

And just for the sake of thread conversation, I did end up changing one of the Smart MOD6 units with a CP45 and the client is more than happy with the result. [Big Grin]

Demetris

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-21-2010, 10:55 AM:

There's a lot of B.S. that goes on in the background here which I don't talk about to most people. You have heard bits and pieces but few have heard the whole story. Many people who have heard my stories think I'm just bitching and making stuff up. There are days when I have to fight to keep a positive attitude. Some days are better than others. The last two weeks have been difficult.

My boss keeps asking me, over and over, "You're sure this will improve the sound?" I keep telling him, over and over, "Yes, yes, yes!"

I have made it clear that there is NO WAY to make the sound 100% better just because of the design of the room. I tell him that the only way to get "perfect" sound is to put sound insulation on the walls and ceiling.

Side note: Aren't there some venues which have movable baffles to change the acoustics of the hall from "live" for stage performances and "dampened" for movies and things?
I seem to remember seeing pictures of a venue that had large, black tapestries along the walls which were made of woven fiberglass or something. They rolled up like window shades. When you wanted "live" you pressed a button and motorized devices caused them to roll up. When you wanted "dampened" they rolled down.
I don't know... maybe I'm dreaming. [Confused]

Anyway, I'm telling him that there are other benefits besides simply improving the sound.

1) We will have the ability to use Dolby Digital for films.
I won't be working there forever. Somebody is going to have to do A-chains on that projector at least once per year. He's not going to pay me $50/hr with a 4-hour minimum to do it for him as a private contractor. He's going to need redundancy in the sound system. Dolby will provide that redundancy.

2) We have to play the Met Opera on the same sound system.
Right now, we are kludging the system together with "wire and gaff tape" to make the sound for the Met. A CP650 natively understands the AC-3 encoding the Met Opera uses. No more using signal combiners and junky solutions to "just make it work." The same thing applies here with DVDs and Blu-Ray.

3) Whether or not you like the Smart Mod-IIB, you must admit that its days are numbered.
The company is out of business and there is NOBODY who officially supports those processors anymore. There might be a chance of finding somebody who will do repairs on the Smart Mod-IIB at a price. Furthermore, it will probably take a minimum of two weeks to get it repaired.

I'm talking about an afternoon's work to un-install it and box it up. One to three days to send it to the repair shop, wherever that may be. One to three days for it to be shipped back to us and one day to reinstall it and test it. That's one week right there. If the repair shop takes just one week to repair the thing, that's two weeks.

We're talking about simple stuff like slapping in a new card or replacing a chip. We haven't even considered the prospect of component-level debugging and repair. We haven't considered the possibility that the repair shop will have to order parts.

It is easy to consider that a blown processor could put them out of business for two weeks or a month or even more. Replace the processor now while you still have somebody who can do it on-staff. Save yourself the trouble right now. Get a processor that can be repaired in a short time. If it breaks, order a new card, slap it in and be on-screen again in a day or two.

4) Maintenance.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the CP650 automatically adjust the LED brightness in the sound head in the fly? Even if it's doesn't, aren't there just a few clicks in the menu system to automatically calibrate it?

Meaning that the current sound tech from Fact Audio (mentioned in another message thread) could read the manual and do this kind of "upkeep" if it was necessary.

5) Michael (my boss) has to consider that I might not be working for him very long. I won't be there to "just fix it."
There are many times, virtually daily, when I make repairs and adjustments to things. It's almost transparent. If you weren't there when I did it, you might not even know it happened. Even then, you would have to know the significance of what I just did or you wouldn't understand.

I won't be there to just tweak the lateral alignment on the sound head. This is a 10-second adjustment but you have to know how to do it or else you could end up being dead in the water.

I won't be there to power-cycle the cinema processor if it locks up after it receives a static electricity shock while somebody goes to adjust the volume.
Yes! The Smart processor is known to do that. Search the forums. I posted the question myself.

There are a dozen little things that you have to know about the Smart processor. You can only know them by experience.
The A-chains on a Mod-IIB have to be perfect. Even a little drift can cause them to sound like shit. They can be quirky and stop working for no apparent reason.

I know a trick to get a really good A-chain on a Smart. A lot of you guys might know it too. I have a tektronix 465b scope. It has an A-B add function plus polarity invert. Both the left and the right preamps on the A-chain have to be EXACTLY at the same level. Using the scope to make them perfect can do a better job than even the null meter inside the processor. This is "shit" you just have to know. It's non-intuitive. Even if somebody explained it to you, it isn't everyday knowledge to somebody who doesn't have experience.

If you don't replace that processor with something more up-to-date... something more future-proof... you could find yourself out of business until you can repair or replace it. There is likely to be no repairing it. You might be forced to replace it. I have found a good price on a used/refurbished Cp650 right now.

So, you claim your budget is being cut and you can't pay me to do my job? Well, you could find your ass out in the street a year from now when you have to spend THREE TIMES the price you would pay today!

Your car is running out of gas but you still have 1,000 more miles to drive before you get home. Will buying premium gas make your car run better? It might. But, even if your car runs exactly the same as it did on cheap, low octane gas, you still need to buy gas or else you might find yourself stranded in the middle of nowhere with no way to get home.

I'm offering you a full tank of premium gas at one-third of the price.

You don't have to pay but, be warned! This is the last gas station for the next 100 miles!

What's your decision?

Posted by Rodrigo Martins (Member # 5855) on 10-20-2010, 12:00 AM:

Hi Randy. I don't know jf you have solved your problem but I had a very similar situation ( in all aspects ) here. What I did was very unusual: a couple days of a very detailed sound system alignment with SIA SmaartLive ( I have some very peculiar situations here ) and after that I recreate the DolbySurround decode on a Yamaha O1V96 digital console and retired my SmartMod8 processor. Believe it or not, was an amazing and huge improvement. I can now either fine adjust my system with a laptop trough WIFI seating in the middle of the room. For more details, mail me. Good luck!

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-21-2010, 07:34 AM:

a crappy-sounding room will undermine the benefit a good-sounding processor. given the cost of the dolby 650 processor -- and the fact that your boss doesn't seem too discriminating about sound quality -- i would recommend trying to get the room fixed first and/or upgrading to a less-expensive processor, like a used cp-65 or even a cp-45.

i know the MOD-IIB processor quite well and i can tell you that it is capable of producing good sound (for its price point) -- your particular unit may be dying but i suspect it is not the biggest culprit in your overall problem.

my concern (for you) is that if you talk your boss into putting a lot of money into processor -- and there isn't a significant net improvement in sound quality -- your reputation is on the line (and your boss probably won't have any money left to fix the room).

p.s. -- how's the job hunt? did u get the gig that u mentioned??

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-21-2010, 11:37 AM:

The room is sacrosanct. It is like a temple. Changing anything inside the room to affect the sound is not going to happen.

I have suggested sound treatments and other people have suggested baffles and other ideas to help the sound. Each and every time the suggestions are met with cold stares.

I do expect the CP-650 to make an improvement in the sound but I do not expect a magical transformation. I believe I understand the limitations of the room and the system I have to work with. However, there are other reasons to get the CP-650.

1) Redundancy between Dolby Digital and analog. Currently, we have only analog. Owing to the quality of the prints we get, sound quality suffers. We get scratched prints with noise in the soundtrack from the damage. I know that it is not 100% but having Dolby Digital gives us a backup.

2) We also receive the Met Opera HD programs via satellite. The Smart processor doesn't have the inputs necessary to play back the sound correctly. Currently, I have rigged up a solution that works but does not provide optimal sound. We could buy a sound decoder and connect it to the Smart processor or we could buy a CP-650 which can decode the sound from the Met Opera without need of any external equipment.
Personally, I prefer the all-in-one solution.

3) Our Smart processor might still have some life left in it but the product is at the end of its life cycle. Nobody supports it anymore. If it needs to be repaired, we will have to find somebody to do it. It will probably take a long time and we will probably have to remove the entire processor and ship it out to be repaired. That will likely take one to two weeks, at minimum. With a CP-650, we can get repair parts and, if we need service, there is a larger pool of people we can call for help.

4) Future proofing: Today, we present movies and Met Opera. We also present video via DVD/Blu-Ray. I do not know what things we will be called upon to do in the future. I can keep patching things into the Smart processor with gaffer's tape and coat hangers, as I have been, or I can get a Dolby processor that will be able to handle almost anything I can throw at it in the next 5 - 10 years and, likely, beyond.

Finally, I'm probably not going to be working there very much longer. Whether you believe a Smart MOD-IIB is a workable processor or not, you have to admit that a CP-650 can provide more seamless operation, longer into the future than a Smart can. The Dolby can tolerate more variation in the A-chain. It is easier to tune the B-chain on a Dolby. One set up properly, the Dolby processor works virtually automatically. Dolby Digital sound gives redundancy.

Bottom line: Replacing the processor makes sense for many reasons.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-21-2010, 01:51 PM:

If you're hell-bent on going that route then I'd have to agree with others who suggest finding one used -- or inquire about B-Stock.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-21-2010, 02:09 PM:

Hell-bent and working on getting a used one already. [Smile]

Will update on the job situation shortly. Crossing my fingers. Something might be happening but I'll tell more later when I am sure of things.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-03-2011, 11:37 AM:

Update: Just finished installing a CP-650 and Dolby Digital.

Everything works well. Sounds good. Ran my first show in Dolby Digital last night, unannounced.

It was the first show in recent memory (if not ever) where the whole audience sat quietly and payed attention to the movie. Previously, there has always been a little unseen restlessness in the audience. That disappeared last night. I attribute this to the fact that, for the first time, the audience was able to HEAR the dialogue.

I am very happy with the results, so far.

The A-chain is done as well as can be. I have done the B-chain according to spec but I still have to tweak the EQ for the room. We will be having somebody come to help get the tuning just right.

In the mean time, that will give me some time to reread the manual and study up so that I can get all of the final alignments perfect.

Here's one question...

Do you think we should advertise the fact that we are the only theater in town that has Dolby Digital?

I think we could get some mileage out of it.

1) The Cinemark theater in town (my former employer) does not have Dolby Digital, nor do they have any Dolby equipment at all. All they have is DTS and SDDS running through USL processors.

2) According to Dolby's website, the closest theater that has Dolby Digital is in Lakewood, NY. A 50 mile or 1 hour drive from Erie. The only other theater in town, besides us and Tinseltown, is the Tom Ridge Center. They have a CP-650 but they don't use it a lot. They run most of their movies in 5/70. I didn't get a good look at their Kinoton projector. I don't know if they have D.D. for reading 35mm prints or not.

3) I think that the sound has been so bad in this theater for so long that many people have stopped coming to movies here. I think that putting out some ads or press releases that tell about the improvements we have made might get a few of those customers back.

Down side: We don't have surround. Only L/C/R/Sub. However, I'm certainly trying to push for surround.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 02-03-2011, 12:29 PM:

I would be careful claiming to be the only Dolby system in town. It may not turn out to be true and it pisses off the competition who can throw rocks back.

I would instead announce "come see our movies, with our new Dolby Digital system", or something like that.

It stays positive that way.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 02-03-2011, 02:20 PM:

By all means place the Dolby Digital logo in the entrance to the auditorium.

Place the logo above the ticket box or beside the playbill case.

If you have a marquee, then put the logo there as well.

"Experience your next film in our theatre with the newly installed Dolby Digital sound system"

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-03-2011, 02:25 PM:

I see what you are saying.

I think it is important to let customers know that we have improved the sound in our theater. It has been so bad, for so long, that I think we have lost business. Maybe it's not the prime reason but I think it has been contributory.

As such, I think it's important to get the word out. A little advertising buzz couldn't hurt. Right?

There are no other main stream theaters in town besides us and Tinseltown. (Cinemark.) The only other one is at the Tom Ridge Center. They play environmental & documentary movies in 5/70. They have a CP-650 but they don't use it for film very often, if at all. They mostly use it for video.

There was another theater in town but they have shut down. They had CP-55s or CP-65s and DA-20 for Dolby Digital. It is unclear whether it will reopen.

There is a movie theater in Meadville, PA which is 30 miles south of us. I don't know if they have Dolby Digital but they are not close enough to Erie.

The only movie theater I know of, according to Dolby's website, that has Dolby Digital, is in Lakewood, NY which is 50 miles to the east.

Even though, as you say, we probably shouldn't trumpet the fact that we are the ONLY Dolby Digital house in town that doesn't prevent use from telling people by word of mouth. Does it?

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 02-03-2011, 03:18 PM:

Without surround speakers I would NOT be advertising Dolby! It will raise expectations and then simply disappoint those that care. Afterall you are not even replaying the sound properly and many people do have home systems.

Do you remix the surrounds back into the stage channels or are you simply dropping them and not playing 100% of the sound track?

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 02-03-2011, 04:13 PM:

Sam is right. . . . but: sometimes a little rock throwing causes INTEREST. This is good for everyone. Louis

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-03-2011, 09:42 PM:

Cameron, that is my one reservation. We do not have surround.
I want to get it but, considering the difficulty I had getting this far, it's going to take time. However, this could be the stepping stone.

Sam & Louis, don't they say, "No publicity is bad publicity?" [Wink]

Even though I used to work at Cinemark, I am not particularly beholden to them.

While we have always been fairly conscientious about avoiding movies that play there, they have never returned the favor. They have booked movies that they knew we were going to play. (We publish our schedule weeks in advance.) They show Met Opera broadcasts, full-well knowing that we show it too. They have no problem doing whatever they think they'll make a buck from.

The distance between us is 4.5 miles by road or 3.8 miles as the crow flies. Driving time between us is about 10 to 15 minutes when weather is good and traffic is clear. During bad weather or when traffic is bad, a half hour is not out of the question.

I used to say that the only thing that Tinseltown has that we don't is digital sound. As of last night, we have closed that gap. Now, the only thing that we need is surround sound and we will have surpassed them.

Now, this is completely hypothetical thinking on my part...
What if we advertise that we have digital sound and that brings back some business but Cinemark fires back that we don't have surround. Don't you think it would be smart to install surrounds?

The only thing we need to do is hang speakers, run the wire and hook up the amps. Right?

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 02-03-2011, 10:12 PM:

If they acknowledge you in any way, they will be admitting that you are a threat and that your facility is superior.. They will only squirm silently.

Advertise to your heart's content; just keep it positive.

"First Dolby Digital in Town." etc. "Best Dolby Digital in town." You know; puffery.

Even if it's not true, if they acknowledge you they will be affirming you. Louis

Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 02-05-2011, 05:14 PM:

quote: Randy Stankey
There is a movie theater in Meadville, PA which is 30 miles south of us. I don't know if they have Dolby Digital but they are not close enough to Erie.

A reliable source tells me that they DO NOT have Dolby Digital.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-05-2011, 09:59 PM:

Didn't think they had it. When a theater has Dolby they usually put it on their website or ads, somewhere, even if it's only a blurb. I wasn't about to drive the 60 miles, round trip just to find out and I guess I am too damn lazy to call. Do you think their cashiers would even know? [Wink]

I'm going to tell my boss that I think we should put out the standard, "For your convenience, we have, at the last minute and at great expense..." type of press release. We'll just quietly keep the "only place in town" part to verbal comments to customers and insiders.

If business picks up that'll give me more ammunition to complete the sound baffle behind the screen and get surrounds installed.

But, y'know, even without surrounds and baffles, the sound in that room isn't terribly bad. It's a big improvement over what it used to be!