Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Film Guard damage?

This is topic Film Guard damage? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Manny Montes (Member # 5639) on 09-19-2010, 03:44 PM:

Here's an interesting one, I have a new booth tech that just told me that us using film guard is actually damaging the projectors. In the cue detector there is a little rubber piece that he says the film guard causes to harden which is going to start scratching the film. I really don't believe him as I've never had an issue in the year+ that I've been using film guard now. Anyone care to shed some light on this?

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-19-2010, 03:57 PM:

First, you need to rule out confirmation bias.

i.e. If a person doesn't like some idea or thing, he will (subconsciously) find things he thinks are wrong with that idea or things that he thinks the idea or thing causes to go wrong and hold them up as proof that the idea is bad, without regard to the real reason those things went wrong.

What if that part was already going bad and the FilmGuard had little or nothing to do with it? Could he be pointing out this failed part as a problem with FilmGuard without regard to the real cause of the failure?

Replace the part with a new one. Watch the part for signs of premature failure while still using FilmGuard. If the failure happens again this is a sign that you need to consider whether FilmGuard is the culprit or not. But, if the part does not fail again, you have ruled out FilmGuard as the culprit.

For the record, I have used FilmGuard on EVERY SINGLE RUN of film through my Simplex PR-1004/5-Star for more than 10 years without a single problem such as the one you describe.

Oh... And a secondary question: How critical is this part?
Let's just, for sake of discussion, stipulate that FilmGuard DOES cause this part to fail.

Is it a critical part? How expensive or difficult is it to replace?
Do the benefits of using FilmGuard outweigh the drawbacks of replacing it?
If so, I would still keep using FilmGuard and chalk it up to the price of excellence.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-19-2010, 04:20 PM:

What kind of cue detectors are you using?

I find it hard to believe that with 10+ years of daily public use on thousands of pretty much every conceivable projection system there is, plus the additional 10 years it was in private beta testing before public release, that your tech's claim is legit. This would have turned up a long time ago, unless perhaps you have some brand new cue detector model that nobody else has dealt with...so what do you have?

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 09-19-2010, 04:53 PM:

I too am having a hard time buying this one. Film-Guard would, at worst, SOFTEN rubber not make it harder. I have never found anything (yet) that F-G hurts though.

Manny, how old is that cue detector/part? I'm thinking the hardening of that rubber piece is due strictly to old age.

I'm also trying to figure out what kind of detector has any rubber/plastic parts in direct contact with the film.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-19-2010, 05:13 PM:

Personally, I have noted that Film Guard will build up scum on the Simplex G-1985 pinch roller in the sound head. That roller should be wiped down weekly, at the least. If not, it will start to bounce as the scum is uneven.

That is about all I've seen of Film-Guard "attacking" projector parts. Then again, the projectors tend to stay MUCH cleaner overall with it, than without it.

There are some that are claiming that Film-Guard on snipes is causing them to get the sparkles (green and other colored specs) over time since the snipes play much longer than actual features.

Steve

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-19-2010, 05:16 PM:

Sparkles on snipes are due to poor film handling and or crappy platter designs (aggravated mostly due to physical moving of prints with "bendable" center rings like Strong and SPECOs older type). It can also happen easily with reel to reel with people who use those old magic film-destroyer Goldberg rewinders that don't have a slow ramp up and down. It is essentially "cinch-scratches" or dirt specs that have scratched the emulsion which when kept super clean with FG show up as little green specs. (More serious damage can be other colors.)

Most people don't truly understand the importance of the proper way to change out trailers. This is a major benefit of the platter array design, as prints are NEVER physically moved. They are flown to where they need to be.

I see lots of this sort of damage happen during breakdown too, but of course the projectionist will insist he/she did no damage because the print was perfect when they last saw it. A bad center ring design for breakdown damage is the original Christie center rings that don't have the locking latch on them. The ring typically gets squeezed together during breakdown and whatever is closest to the ring gets cinch scratched (meaning, your snipes). We would always remove a brain and jam a CD jewel case into the opening of those center rings before the last show ran to prevent that from happening during breakdown. The current Christie rings from the last decade don't suffer this problem so long as the latch is clamped on the showing before the print is moved or broken down. Still, Strong platters are the absolute worst offenders for sparkles due to their bendable center ring.

This doesn't have to happen, but it DOES require everyone handling the films truly understand proper film handling procedures to prevent it. (And no I am not talking about the generic crap tips you read about in cheezy "projection booth manuals"). [Roll Eyes]

Simplex 5 star soundheads are easily converted to rid themselves of the "dirt embedder roller" on the soundhead. Just remove the evil roller and replace it with a rubber insert from a Kelmar film cleaner cut to the same width as the rubber roller. Re-calibrate your A-chain and voila! You will never, ever have any possibility of embedding dirt into your prints and that fix will never, ever require cleaning that roller or changing it in the future.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-19-2010, 05:37 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
The current Christie rings from the last decade don't suffer this problem so long as the latch is clamped on the showing before the print is moved or broken down

Oh, that's what that latch thingey is for - for breakdowns instead of buildups (we stick a wedge inbetween the motor and arm to release the motor so the deck freewheels on breakdown..) where I've seen booth operators shove a handle of a paintbrush in the gap of the older rings so they won't squeeze together during builds.

Course, what we do is take the belt off on the MUT so the supply reel is freewheeling and got a nice, slightly loose wind on the deck. Then, let the machine and platter do the constant film wind trick on the first show.

I take that locking tab, give it a slight downward bend so it will remain in the open positon post when you swing it over and the bend keeps it there in place (granted, I love to take all of that nonsense off, but with this bend trick, it suffices well.)

Cuz nothing more aggrevating is to have that tab swing to the closed position when removing the ring on threadups where you can't squeeze the ends together to release the ring from the print.

quote: Brad Miller
Just remove the evil roller and replace it with a rubber insert from a Kelmar film cleaner cut to the same width as the rubber roller. Re-calibrate your A-chain and voila! You will never, ever have any possibility of embedding dirt into your prints...

I did try that trick on a 5-star and it did work, but somehow with that lateral roller now having to float over the drum, it caused the snubbing roller to want to pull forward all the way (if I remember since it was a few years that Brad originally brought this up in FT), thus I went back to the original setup-figuring that this really wasn't my booth and didn't want the uppers to get all pent up with my mods..
-Monte

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-19-2010, 05:40 PM:

Why didn't I know about this Simplex soundhead fix? I abhor the design of that thing!

Monte, I wouldn't recommend doing the things you suggest. I'd explain more, but I'm typing on my iPod now.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-19-2010, 05:42 PM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
(we stick a wedge inbetween the motor and arm to release the motor so the deck freewheels on breakdown..)

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Course, what we do is take the belt off on the MUT so the supply reel is freewheeling and got a nice, slightly loose wind on the deck.

You're killing me Monte. That is NOT the way to do it. Leave the motor and MUT belt intact. Assuming your equipment is in proper condition, you will be putting light marks on your print doing it that way.

Joe I posted that trick years ago, but you weren't dealing with Simplexes at the time so you probably didn't care.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-19-2010, 05:48 PM:

(Sorry, didn't mean to show that we're going out of the standard method of doing things, but variances of the norm took place with what was performed here...)

We have the newer MUTS that has the smaller diameter pulley assembly on them and it really pulled tension on the film on the builds.

Granted, on the older MUTS that had the larger pulley on the motor, we did leave the belt on where I used to work at, but never used the "brake" switch-why of the motor release on breakdown.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-19-2010, 08:14 PM:

Going back on topic: Heard buzz that the green media was better than the white. Thus, which one is it since I've seen theatres use both types of media for the Kelmars..

Posted by Robert Koch (Member # 3728) on 09-19-2010, 09:08 PM:

Bottom line; who the hell is this wonerfully informed tech.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-19-2010, 11:23 PM:

Monte, if you do a search you will find the answer. The green media is like using sandpaper. It scratches anything you run through it.

Posted by Manny Montes (Member # 5639) on 09-20-2010, 04:44 AM:

Sorry it took a while to respond, We use Strong FP-350 cue detectors, I really doubt the tech, the building is 10 years old and i've been there for 3 years, I'm pretty sure it's just that these parts have gotten old. however it is tough to fight a tech when they have experience on their side.

*edit*
Let me post back about this, I'm getting conflicting views from others (I wasn't the one who actually talked with the tech) I'm not sure if it is in the optical soundhead or the optical failsafe/cue detector (Oh the joys of communication in a multiplex)

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-20-2010, 04:54 AM:

Okey, that kinda explains it since you mentioned that you got FP350s.

Those front rollers, if not lubed and esp if your FP350's (if they are the early model of FP350) contains the solid core rollers, and not the bearing loaded ones, will begin to seize and will scratch film.

A touch of FG on those roller shafts gets them spinning again.

I've seen those solid front rollers actually been worn to smooth with no shoulders left and wear spots in the middle of the roller-(like a worn out old fashioned, brass firetrap roller in the upper magazine that haven't been spinning in decades).....and I bet that this newbie tech guru thinks that FG is hardening up these rollers that causing the scratching ... and not paying attention to simple lub maintenance.

You oughta take a peek at these rollers yourself, and if my hunch is in your favor, show this to your uppers and maybe even that techdude.

..and those rollers aren't cheap from STRONG ...

-Monte

Posted by Manny Montes (Member # 5639) on 09-20-2010, 04:58 AM:

Monte I think you hit it on the head, it sounds exactly similar to the report from one of the other booth managers that was there when the tech was. I'm pretty sure they are in good shape, I think he was giving this as a warning that they could become damaged due to using film guard. I will check it out

*edit*
Didn't want this to get misconstrued, I'm not going to put the tech/who they work for out there, I think it may be a simple misunderstanding from what they have seen in the past.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 09-20-2010, 08:30 AM:

Or maybe he was explaining what Monte said and the manager misunderstood what was being said?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-20-2010, 12:22 PM:

..and if this is the case, what I've done as a good temp until the new rollers comes in, is to take electrical tape, wrap tape on one side of the roller about 5 turns of the tape real tight, then take an "X-acto" knife and cut and trimmed off the tape where the shoulders begin on the roller to make new shoulders and repeat this mod on the other side.

-Monte

Posted by Joe Elliott (Member # 4006) on 09-20-2010, 11:17 PM:

quote:
Lil: Get this to Johnny on the grapevine. Vermin is going to kill Johnny's brother at the savoy theater tomorrow night. Got it?
Polly the parrot: Got it.
[flies away]
Polly the parrot: [arrives at prison mess hall and lands on the shoulder of a prisoner] Vermin is going to kill Johnny's brother at the Savoy theater. Pass it on.
Prisoner: [to the next prisoner sitting next to him] Vermin is going to kill Johnny's brother at the Savoy theater tonight. Pass it on.
Prisoner: [to the next prisoner, "telephone" style] Vermin is going to kill Johnny's mother at the Savoy theater tonight. Pass it on.
Prisoner: [to the next prisoner] Vermin's mother is going to kill Johnny tonight at the Savoy theater. Pass it on.
Prisoner: [to the next prisoner]
[unintelligible]
Prisoner: ... at the Savoy. Pass it on.
Prisoner: There's a message through the grapevine, Johnny.
Johnny Dangerously: Yeah? What is it?
Prisoner: Johnny and the Mothers are playing "Stompin' at the Savoy" in Vermont tonight.
Johnny Dangerously: Vermin's going to kill my brother at the Savoy theater tonight.
Prisoner: I didn't say that.
Johnny Dangerously: No, but I know this grapevine.

I'd call the tech directly.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-21-2010, 05:03 AM:

There are no rubber things on the FP-350. The orange buds are the proximity detectors. They are always hard. I haven't seen the front roller seize yet, but if it did it'd be due to age, not Filmguard.

Also, these failsafes are made by EPRAD and they are virtually useless. Give me real, swinging failsafe arms any day.