Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: future discrete 7.1 surround sound films

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Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 10-13-2010, 10:38 PM:

finding any new news regarding the actual release of films in the new sound format is like looking for a needle in a haystack... well... surprise!

In addition, the following six films with Dolby Surround Sound 7.1 will be released soon:
◦Disney’s Tangled, November 24, 2010
◦Disney’s TRON: Legacy, December 17, 2010
◦DreamWorks Animation’s Megamind, November 5, 2010
◦Touchstone Pictures’s Gnomeo and Juliet, February 11, 2011
◦Twentieth Century Fox’s The Chronicles of Narnia: The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, December 10, 2010
◦Twentieth Century Fox’s Gulliver’s Travels, December 22, 2010

Dolby Surround 7.1 is being used in movies all over the world. Last month’s premiere of Legend of the Fist: The Return of Chen Zhen signified the first Chinese film to be released in Dolby Surround 7.1. This month, Los Ojos De Julia (Julia’s Eyes) will be released at the Sitges Film Festival in Spain making it the first European film to use the format.

~~~~

It's great to see studio support not just from Disney - the addition of Fox and Dreamworks will help the format considerably.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-14-2010, 01:37 AM:

So, like 3D, it is mostly for kiddie-fare, then?

Posted by Kris Verhanneman (Member # 5562) on 10-14-2010, 04:47 AM:

I'll keep this list and check the DCP when these films arrive. But I do hope that it's better then the EX experiance.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-14-2010, 07:26 AM:

Oh boy... those are seon really exciting big titles you have posted there [sleep]

.

I see it as a replacement for the now dead Dolby EX format. This one will also be dead in just a few years time. I'll bet money on that. What this industry needs is the LC and RC speakers back up front where the difference will be noticed by the general public!

Mark

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 10-14-2010, 08:01 AM:

I dissagree with Mark. The lc and rc channels really make a difference in an auditorium with screen wider than 12 meters. Otherwise the directivity is so close that you can barely tell the difference. Ex died because of lack of studio support. Now the issue is that the format currently is only for Dcinema. The only film sound system that could handle so many discrete channels seems for the time being to be DTS with the XD10 or the XD20 unit due to additional channel support. I doubt DD can squeeze additionaly 2 discrete channels. I do hope they manage though to push the format on film systems soon if studios support the format.
Demetris

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 10-14-2010, 10:27 AM:

While it would be nice to bring back the right extra and left extra stage channels for that classic Todd-AO "5 up front" scheme, it's something that would only be effective in commercial theaters with large screens.

Additionally, 5 stage channels is something home theater systems cannot support. That might be good in one respect. However, with as little time Hollywood studios are allowing movies to play in commercial theaters the setup would be a waste.

I've been pretty annoyed with Universal Studios regarding the DTS XD-10 and XD-20. The studio had opportunities to promote better sound formats for film but never bothered. The XD-10 and XD-20 processors can do a lot more than just play the old DTS 5.1 theatrical format. They can play high bit rate lossless audio and more discrete channels of it. Unfortunately, the movie studio has to provide the "software."

The vast majority of SDDS installations were wired only for 5.1 output. Not very many movies were mixed and distributed with SDDS 7.1 audio tracks.

Not many movies are being mixed in 7.1 with four discrete surround channels either. However, the four channel surround array is something that can and should be used in most commercial movie theaters. Since Blu-ray can support the same 7.1 quad surround format studios that do bother to release movies theatrically in 7.1 can use the same audio design later on video release.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 10-14-2010, 11:47 AM:

The additional cost of the extra amplifier/s needed for the discrete surround is silly for a new cinema NOT to make at least the provision. I do hope they push the format at film as well as Digital.
Demetris

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-14-2010, 12:27 PM:

Oh stop...5-screen channels can benefit just about ANY size screen...those that claim no either haven't done it on a smallish screen (20-foot or less) or have used dreadful equipment with piss-poor EQ. Stop spouting your ignorance.

5-screen channels, in my opinion, is more beneficial than the 4 surround channels, but that, is only my opinion. Channels 7/8 are supposed to be there for them in DCinema...it is one of the reasons that 7.1 used channels 11/12 (I forget what 9/10 are targeted for).

There were more 8-channel SDDS theatres than you would imagine...and considering it was a "premium" format, it had a high percentage. As to the number of features with 8-channels...again, more than you would imagine. http://www.sdds.com/news_movies.cfm?showfilms=8 You compare the list to EX or even 70mm and it is a decent size.

As for surround 7.1...it ports easily to the home market so it is likely to get some traction. It is too easy to design into new builds and it gives existing EX theatres and easy upgrade path.

There is nothing proprietary to 7.1 so any processor can play it...though one should ensure that they can switch between 7.1 and 5.1...again, not rocket science in the DCinema world.

I would NOT look for it to EVER come to film except in a Datasat form...there is seemingly ZERO interest in furthering film anything in the industry (except by those that depend on actual film for a living).

Steve

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 10-14-2010, 12:46 PM:

Yes Steve but almost all titles are Columbia. I wonder why. Still no feature since 2007. If the industry is wise, they must and should innovate film.
Demetris

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-14-2010, 08:49 PM:

research has shown that we are better at differentiating small directional changes in sound coming from in front of us, and not very good at detecting differences coming from behind or above.

hence, if it comes down to an either/or proposition, movies stand to benefit from more screen channels versus more surround channels.

but, isn't it a done-deal now? don't these channels "belong" to rear surround left/right?

even so, there are other channels still up for grabs. hopefully we will see le/re before long.

i recall sony's marketing packet for sdds-8 claimed that the extra channels reduced "competition" among sound elements for a channel -- for example, music could be routed to le/re whereas effects could be routed to l/r -- this has stuck with me as something to get more information on -- emotionally, i can buy into it but, since it came out of a marketing packet, i have to question it until some proof emerges. any thoughts???

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 10-15-2010, 09:31 AM:

Wouldn't the benefits of additional screen channels only be evident if the movies are mixed to take advantage of them, such as using directional dialogue?

If a sound effect is panned across three channels or five, I don't see that having a big impact, but if the additional screen channels can give us voices that come from more than just the center of the screen, that may actually be a benefit that most people can appreciate.

It would also be a feature that theaters would have that homes will likely never have, but mixing those left-center and right-center channels for the home shouldn't be any trouble.

That said, however, I don't think that the extra surround channels are a waste. Maybe some theaters just aren't up to the task of implementing it correctly, but the ability to direct sounds to those rear channels gives the sound designers much more to work with. We've seen consistent releases in EX/ES from Disney/Pixar and some support from the other studios, but why should they bother if they feel like theaters don't care enough to support it?

What ends up happening is that the Blu-ray release gets better sound than theaters do, since not only do Blu-ray customers have the extra surround channels, but they also get lossless sound. Whether or not someone can actually hear the difference can be debated until the cows come home, but even if they can't, the marketing advantage is clearly on the side of the home video release and not the theatrical release.

To go back to the restaurant comparison, good restaurants spend lots of money to hire good chefs, good staff, nice decor, and other things to make the experience of eating out better than eating at home. If I want mac and cheese, I can stay home, and many theaters are providing their customers with mac and cheese when they should be providing filet mignon.

As of last night's update, we have showtimes for 4,796 theaters. Want to guess how many of them are advertising EX, ES, or 7.1 sound in any showtime for all the dates for which showtimes are present?

7 (Seven). Yep, 0.15% of theaters in the United States are advertising the use of extended surround to the public. That's actually more than I expected to see, and it makes me wonder if some/all of those are advertising EX when they are showing a movie that hasn't been encoded with the extra channels. A better test will be when Megamind opens, as well as the others that are listed in the previous message.

What is the real additional cost of adding support for EX/ES/7.1? The speakers are already there, the wiring should be home-run already (if it's not, fire the wiring guys), so you're just looking at a couple of amps (and in the case of film, an XD10 processor)? Let's break it down by the numbers!

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 10-15-2010, 10:01 AM:

Commercial movie theaters are already delivering lossless or uncompressed surround sound, at least in terms of the ones equipped with digital projection systems. Unfortunately hardly anyone has been marketing this fact. The old lossy compressed formats for film (DTS, Dolby Digital, SDDS) get a place in the movie's end credits. But there's no mention in the credits along the lines of "uncompressed surround sound in d-cinema equipped locations."

Dolby Surround 7.1 is really the first attempt to apply any branding to d-cinema audio, although adding the Dolby brand or any other company brand for that matter doesn't make much sense since the audio is "vanilla" linear PCM.

The one area where Blu-ray can be better than D-cinema audio is in delivering high resolution audio. Some concert Blu-ray discs feature 24-bit 96kHz multichannel audio. The Baraka Blu-ray has 24/96 audio. Blu-ray can also support 24-bit 192kHz stereo. I'm not a Neil Young fan, but he has a Blu-ray audio only box set boasting 24-bit 192kHz audio. AFAIK, commercial movies aren't being delivered to theaters with 24-bit 96kHz audio; it's usually 48kHz in either 20-bit or 24-bit depth.

The audio track is only part of the deal. Just as many home theater setups are actually pretty crappy, a great deal of commercial theater sound systems leave a lot to be desired. Stadium seated auditorium designs do a lot to screw up surround sound quality. Imaging of the back wall just isn't there in many places unless you're sitting in one of the tallest rows farthest from the screen. And then the rear surround speakers are practically over your head. At that vantage point there's little discernible separation in the stage channels.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-15-2010, 05:55 PM:

panned dialogue was introduced in the 70mm era and abandoned - i doubt they'd attempt to revive that idea

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 10-15-2010, 06:33 PM:

I believe Avatar used quite a bit of panned dialog, at least in the IMAX version.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-15-2010, 06:37 PM:

didn't notice it - not sure it helped

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 10-17-2010, 05:49 AM:

doesn't all - or almost - pixar movies have panned dialogues?

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 10-18-2010, 08:56 AM:

panned dialogue in Toy Story 2 is very noticable.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 10-18-2010, 02:54 PM:

Certainly since 'CARS' they've panned dialogue anyway.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I see it as a replacement for the now dead Dolby EX format. This one will also be dead in just a few years time. I'll bet money on that.

Wow! Mark and I agree on something. [Razz]

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 10-18-2010, 05:00 PM:

quote: Manny Knowles
recall sony's marketing packet for sdds-8 claimed that the extra channels reduced "competition" among sound elements for a channel -- for example, music could be routed to le/re whereas effects could be routed to l/r -- this has stuck with me as something to get more information on -- emotionally, i can buy into it but, since it came out of a marketing packet, i have to question it until some proof emerges. any thoughts???

That was certainly one of the strong selling points of SDDS-8 mixes - the Centre could be kept free of Music and FX for Dialogue only. This gave great clarity in the theatre - I well remember seeing Godzilla in SDDS-8 and it was astounding (at least the sound was, anyway [Smile]

).

I believe great things were also said of the SDDS-8 mix for U-571, among others.

Post sound magazine Mix carried many fine articles on films with SDDS-8 mixes over the years; back issues may be available.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 10-18-2010, 05:50 PM:

If wikipedia is to be believed, the list of films released in SDDS-8 is more extensive than I was aware of, including a dozen so far in 2010.

Paul Blart: Mall Cop was in SDDS-8?? [Eek!]

The one and only movie I know for sure that I saw in SDDS-8 was Spider-Man in 2002 and my recollection is it sounded awesome.

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 10-22-2010, 07:55 PM:

As far as DTS-ES is concerned, there are a total of 5 movies in 2010 with DTS-ES:

From Paris with Love
Alice in Wonderland
Oceans
Toy Story 3
Tron: Legacy

The IMDb lists 13 movies released in 2010 with Dolby Digital EX, and Wikipedia thinks that 12 movies were released in SDDS-8. The only 7.1 channel release that we can be sure about is Toy Story 3.
Is it safe to assume that the superset of those movies, if available via Digital Cinema, would be available with more than 5.1 channels of lossless sound? My guess is that such an assumption would be an unsafe one...

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-22-2010, 08:03 PM:

How can a movie be in Dolby Digital EX and not DTS-ES and vice/versa? Isn't the same basic matrix used (derive center surround from Ls and Rs in-phase common)? You can use Dolby Digital with a DTS-ES unit, etc. I doubt you can mix for one and not mix for the other since I'm pretty sure that DTS and Dolby Digital always use the same master, theatrically. I think the only difference is which is coded to "auto-engage" the center surround on their respective units.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 10-22-2010, 08:41 PM:

Joe,
Just because a movie was mixed such that DTS-ES could be used doesn't mean they pressed DTS disks that have the ES part on them...

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-22-2010, 09:06 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Commercial movie theaters are already delivering lossless or uncompressed surround sound, at least in terms of the ones equipped with digital projection systems. Unfortunately hardly anyone has been marketing this fact.

For what it's worth, we get around 20,000 customers a year in here and not one of them has ever asked me if our sound is lossy or lossless.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-22-2010, 10:48 PM:

Mike, your customers are too stupid to know that movie theaters have been using compressed sound for decades now. OK... I'll settle for "uninformed" and not "stupid".

quote: Chris Skylord
Joe,
Just because a movie was mixed such that DTS-ES could be used doesn't mean they pressed DTS disks that have the ES part on them...

Which is why I said:

quote: Joe Redifer
I think the only difference is which is coded to "auto-engage" the center surround on their respective units.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 10-23-2010, 12:10 AM:

Touche. Although I was thinking more along the lines of them possibly having it automated to only include the 5.1 portions for the DTS disk rather than them going out of their way to remix the soundtrack, although I gotta admit that's an unlikely scenario. Perhaps I shouldn't post when I'm focusing on a pediatrics final...

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-23-2010, 07:22 PM:

I can tell you they don't remix ES/EX for 5.1 -- mainly because ES/EX are actually 5.1 mixes to begin with

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 10-26-2010, 10:23 PM:

quote: Scott Jentsch
As far as DTS-ES is concerned, there are a total of 5 movies in 2010 with DTS-ES:

From Paris with Love
Alice in Wonderland
Oceans
Toy Story 3
Tron: Legacy
The IMDb lists 13 movies released in 2010 with Dolby Digital EX, and Wikipedia thinks that 12 movies were released in SDDS-8. The only 7.1 channel release that we can be sure about is Toy Story 3.
Is it safe to assume that the superset of those movies, if available via Digital Cinema, would be available with more than 5.1 channels of lossless sound? My guess is that such an assumption would be an unsafe one...

'Oceans' was DTS ES ?? - interesting I didn't know that. Would it be safe to assume the bluray has the matrixed rear center of sound.

The blu-ray of 'Alice in Wonderland' is 6.1 but it's not indicated as such anywhere on the back cover.

It's seems to be a pattern on Pixar/Disney blurays that have matrixed rear ES/EX but not indicated as such. The Toy Story 3 bluray states the French and Spanish tracks are Dolby EX, but also include DTS 5.1 (ES) and discrete DTS 7.1.

Step Up 3(D) was also released in discrete 7.1 in the theaters and the upcoming December bluray edition.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 10-26-2010, 10:29 PM:

Considering many Wikipedia pages are open for just about anyone to edit, I wouldn't consider any SDDS-8 movies list shown there to automatically be error free.

It's sort of like people using that "Brands of the World" website assuming all the logos there are legit. They don't realize many, if not most of them, are knock-offs made by whoever -with quite a few of the knock-offs being laughably bad.

quote: Mike Blakesley
For what it's worth, we get around 20,000 customers a year in here and not one of them has ever asked me if our sound is lossy or lossless.

My guess is the vast majority (perhaps nearly all) movie-goers don't know any better. You only see the logos for the old lossy compressed surround formats used in movie marketing materials when the show is in theatrical release. The old lossy format logos are used on the movie posters. And the old lossy format logos are all that's ever shown on the end credits as well. Uncompressed audio is never mentioned, even though it is a standard feature with digital cinema and could be a commonly used feature for film-based theaters using DTS XD10 and XD20 processors.

Over in home theater circles lots of tech-heads have a major shit fit if a movie is released on Blu-ray without a lossless or uncompressed track. Warner Bros. caught all kinds of hell about it from both fans and critics. There's so many vocal DTS fans that it seems like just about every major studio is using DTS-HD Master Audio heavily or even exclusively on their Blu-ray releases.

Dolby Surround 7.1 is the first attempt, a kind of feeble one, to give people a hint that theaters can deliver digital audio tracks just as good as the ones being pressed onto Blu-ray discs. I don't think it does enough to really educate customers about the difference.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-27-2010, 02:14 AM:

I still don't know why theatrical 7.1 sound is branded as "Dolby". Dolby has nothing to do with it. That's like AIWA claiming AIWA 2.0 stereo sound for CDs or some shit.

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 10-27-2010, 03:34 AM:

.....or Disney Digital 3D.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-27-2010, 07:25 AM:

not stating this as a fact, but to answer those questions about branding, the first thing i'd research would be dolby and disney's involvement in dci -- there was a consortium and possibly some deals were made..?

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 10-27-2010, 11:26 AM:

Lossy vs. lossless audio in theaters is a snoozer. Nobody cares and even I have a hard time telling the difference. The digital screens here may just not be good enough to fully reveal the difference. Maybe if we get Regal RPX or Cinemark XD then the difference will be more obvious, like it (apparently) is with AMC ETX. [Big Grin]

I can however tell the difference on my home system. Lossless is better in that situation.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-27-2010, 03:09 PM:

But David, when they see you enter the theater, the staff runs and hides because "the sound guy" is coming. And now you say you can't tell the difference?

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 10-27-2010, 03:24 PM:

They run and hide because I am well-known there for complaining about about things like "Why isn't the dialog coming out of the surrounds like it does with my Dolby Pro-Logic home theater receiver that I bought in 1995, which I run in Large Arena Concert Emulation Mode no matter what content I'm playing?"

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 10-27-2010, 09:50 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
I still don't know why theatrical 7.1 sound is branded as "Dolby". Dolby has nothing to do with it. That's like AIWA claiming AIWA 2.0 stereo sound for CDs or some shit.

because Dolby wants us to think that, even though 7.1 was possible for digital projection, it took them and Pixar/Disney to get their act together first and implement it... you'd think that Sony would resurrect it's five front channel configurement as it had for 8-channel SDDS.

Let's go with the flow here: five front, four surrounds in the back, one in the ceiling - 10.1 Surround sound - the sky's the limit folks [Wink]

Posted by James Larden (Member # 5594) on 10-28-2010, 12:04 PM:

It has probably already been mentioned here, but NHK's experimental "Super Hi Vision" format will suposedly have 22.2ch capability. [Eek!]