Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Old 16 mm Projector

This is topic Old 16 mm Projector - Could It Work? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=010658

Posted by Steven Ferguson (Member # 5911) on 10-17-2010, 07:58 PM:

Very quick background: I just took over senior management of a 60 year old theatre, and I'm hoping to start up a program next year showcasing old cartoons. I was showed by one of the owners (who used to be manager here from 78 - 85) an old 16 mm projector, and thought that maybe I could use that. 16 mm cartoons? Hell yeah!

Well...it's in three pieces. Rectifier, lamp house, and main unit. That doesn't worry me so much. But I have no clue as to when this machine was last used, and if it'll even work. It's still got a 1K bulb in it too, and I'm not sure if it'll light, not light, or explode.

Machine specs:
Lamphouse is a Kni-Tron with 2806 hours on it.
Rectifier is a Kni-Tron, 230 AC Volt, 10 AC Amp, 22 DC Volt, 46 DC Amp.
Projector is a Hortson, particularly a "Hortsonarc".

Did I miss anything crucial? What are your opinions?

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 10-17-2010, 08:17 PM:

You have to get the sound to the speakers, as it sounds like it is not hooked up. Optical pre-amp? Exciter lamp? And power to the rectifier then to the lamp. Do you have reels and a splicer? Lens?

Hortsons are good 16mm, we have one. Should work fine for what you want to do. If it is one of the belt driven models, and has been sitting around, you may need to replace the belt. Change out the oil before you run it and make sure the oil is getting distributed. If it has been sitting around for years, a thourogh cleaning for dirt and rust.

That said, do you have a source for 16mm cartoons?

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-17-2010, 09:29 PM:

You might see if any parts can be obtained before you get too enthusiastic. Is Hortson still with us?? (Good projector in its day . . . 60s & 70s. Louis

Posted by Steven Ferguson (Member # 5911) on 10-17-2010, 10:10 PM:

Oh yeah, all the parts are still around, and it seems to be an exciter.

The host who will be running the show has been looking into getting some 16 mm. I've even seen them listed on eBay!

But a cleaning is definitely on the agenda. But what about the bulb? Any chance I should risk testing it out?

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 10-18-2010, 09:04 AM:

Just a caution...16mm cartoons ARE widely available for sale on ebay and elsewhere--nice LPP and IB prints, too--but except for some ancient Aesops Fables and a few others most are not public domain (i.e. they are copywrited). I don't want to rain on your parade, but be careful. Good luck.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 10-18-2010, 09:36 AM:

Beware of the Wabbit and the Mouse. They are both interested in getting paid money for the use of their cartoons.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 10-18-2010, 02:17 PM:

Is this a commercial art house? Do you have a booker for your feature product? If so, you will need to get clearance for any cartoon you show as has been said, so why not just let your booker try to book 35mm cartoons to run with your feature? It will save a lot of headaches when it comes to the exhibition licensing issues.

If you are not a commercial house but a non-profit, then Swank Motion Picture has non-theatrical rights to a good library of cartoons from MGM and Warner, and others as well, many on 35mm as well as 16mm and on DVD.

If you go the 16mm purchase route, you will have the added expense of putting the Horston back into service, paying the asking price for whatever 16mm cartoons you can find on ebay or other sources (and the going price is pretty stiff on many of the better ones), and then you'll STILL have to pay the studio the license fee to show them. All in all, that can get pretty costly, not to mention the question -- what do you do with those 16mm prints you purchased that the theatre now owns? How many times can you run them to your audiences....and each time you will STILL have to pay the studio or Swank.

If you rent from the distribs or book from Swank, you may be ahead of the game $$$wise because you will only be renting. And make no mistake -- as the guys have already cautioned, exhibiting an 8 minute cartoon MIGHT seem insignicant to you (underline mistake!), but it is no less serious a copyright infringement to run it without proper licensing as it is to run a full length feature without licensing it -- Mr. Copyright makes no distinction and neither does the House of Wabbit and the House of Rodent (especially the Rodent); both of them will knaw your legs and arms off if you inadvertantly cross them on this issue.

Forewarned is a stitch in time.

Posted by Steven Ferguson (Member # 5911) on 10-19-2010, 08:00 PM:

Oh no worry guys, I'm wanting to do this strictly by-the-book. Our first couple of nights are going to be public domain only (digital format) so that we can prove to the owners that we can attract enough of an audience to justify going with copyrighted material.

The 16 mm is just an option at this point, and the host of the program would definitely be interested in keeping them just for the sake of saying he has them on 16 mm.

Speaking of which...I've been trying to contact someone up here in Canada ABOUT exhibiting these copy-righted cartoons legally, and my first thought was the CRTC, cause at the very least they'd know who to contact but they never got back to me.

Can anyone perhaps give me a suggestion (Canadian...), or would that not be appropriate for this forum?

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 10-19-2010, 09:36 PM:

Hey good to see you here!

You can try Criterion Pictures, they have a warehouse in Richmond and they did have 16mm ( I think ? ) at one point.

Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 10-20-2010, 07:32 AM:

Criterion still has their 16mm collection, an its massive. Some are in great shape others not so much.

Posted by Tony L. Hernandez (Member # 3524) on 10-20-2010, 03:07 PM:

That's actually a great idea, so long as you listen to what everyone else has said before me about the copyright stuff... you don't wanna take that chance!
You should try to have your unit checked over/serviced by someone who is experienced with 16mm equipment. Make certain your xenon lamp is still good as having one explode will damage your lamphouse. It is a good idea to have a spare lamp on hand too.
I think that every booth should still have 1-2 working 16mm projectors on hand...especially if you will be showing arthouse, foreign, avant-garde or classic films. I still use 16mm film in a few of my theaters all the time! Every Friday night, (in one of my arthouses), I run a short subject (that I have either obtained the rights to show or is in the public domain)for the 30-40 minutes leading up to showtime. I keep the house lights up so that folks can still find their seats, the volume low enough so it will not disrupt pre-show conversations but loud enough that those interested can easily hear and it still looks great on screen. Everybody loves it as well since most of them are used to being harassed by looping, digitally projected ads or if they are lucky, a blank screen.
Also, every now and then I still have to show my main feature on 16mm (surprisingly, I've gotten 3 16mm features so far this month and two more coming up this week, although they don't usually come along quite this often). I usually like to run these with two projectors/changeover but will occasionally use an EIKI long-play unit where I splice all my reels together on one 6k reel.

I can also attest to the fact that Criterion has a massive collection of 16mm. I have used them before and had good luck with their prints, so far. I know Swank still does as well, however I'm not sure if you fit their classification of "non-theatrical" but it is certainly worth checking into. New Yorker Films used to have (as of 2 years ago) an OK 16mm collection although I'm not sure if anything remains of that anymore after all the changes they have been through over the past year.

There are still many wonderful titles on the 16mm format (and in some cases, that format alone)...why miss out on programing what you really want or need to show simply because you don't have a 16mm projector or you do, but it is in disrepair?

I hope this helps! Kudos to you for trying to get your 16mm stuff back in service!

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-20-2010, 03:20 PM:

I happen to like the Hortson machines, but I believe that the exciter lamp is NLA (don't quote me on that). You might want to look into this and stock up on them before spending big $$$ on installation and refurbishment of a machine which may not be viable over the long term. Also, the rubber pinch roller below the gate may need to be refurbished.

I have seen Hortsons with several different lamphouse configurations; at least one has a reflector that is NLA.

And, yes, 16mm is alive and well. I will be running at least three public 16mm screenings at various venues over the next few weeks. It isn't the most popular format, but the need does arise a few times per year.

Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 10-21-2010, 07:45 AM:

16mm gets played more then 70mm 5 perf.

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 10-21-2010, 05:17 PM:

I know and it's a damn shame.

Best of my knowledge, last time a 5/70 show was publicly presented in Vancouver was February 1997.

Posted by Jack Theakston (Member # 4484) on 10-21-2010, 05:42 PM:

For shorts and cartoons, there is FAR more available in 16mm than there is commercially in 35mm.

And, as I believe has been expressed in other threads here, availability of WB cartoons is becoming increasingly slim (if you can even get them on the phone.)

The rub is, of course, that everyone wants to see Disney and WB cartoons the most, and they're the two most stuck-up companies to deal with in regards to running your own prints.

Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 10-21-2010, 06:11 PM:

It has been a few years since I ran 16mm from the UK suppliers (BFI and Filmbank).

Unfortunately most of the prints had been through the wars, and appeared sub-VHS in quality. The (optical) sound quality was most noticeable, being noticeable worse than 35mm mono [tested on a couple of projectors]. A lot of 16mm prints are pan and scan.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 10-22-2010, 11:19 AM:

For a theatre to show a pan & scan movie to the public is the same as a restaurant serving a beautiful vanilla pudding with a dog turd stuck in the middle of it.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 10-22-2010, 02:35 PM:

I remember the days at the AFI when some prints were only available in 16mm B&W, even though they had the big Technicolor logo at the front.

On the other hand, scope 16mm at that theatre was not a pretty site, either.