Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Philips FP18 problems

This is topic Philips FP18 problems in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by David Boyd (Member # 4936) on 11-30-2010, 12:21 PM:

We use what calls itself a "kinoton FP38", being a Kinoton FP30 on the normal side, and a Philips FP18 on the reverse side wearing a "Kinoton" badge. The machines share some electrics, particularly the inverter. The ony difference between the 35mm side and the normal FP30 is that it isn't direct drive, there not being enough space (depth), so it is a belt drive instead. The FP18 has its own lamp house, and the lateral adjustment is by pulling the mechanism in and out on spigots. Vertical is as it is normally by eccentric washer at the gate. Our problems are:
1. There is an awful noise when the machine runs which goes away or at least improves if you exert some pressure on the sprocket end of the intermittent shaft, but there does not seem to be a way (without a proper manual!!) of adjusting the end float, if indeed this is causing the problem. We are told that Kinoton could rebuild the intermittent even though some parts are not available, but we don't know for sure that this is the cause of the trouble, plus it would cost GBP 1,760 for a refurbished unit! This started a few months ago when some very old stock was being run through so perhaps something has become strained.
2. The focus is no longer good (it used to be excellent) and certainly not evenly focused left to right, so perhaps the boresight is out of kilter. However, we don't know the limits of the horizontal adjustment we should work withing i.e. the machine being pulled to and from from the casing on its spigots, and whether this is causing the focus problem, plus the fact the reflector is dodgy anyway.

We have something of a manual but there are pages missing. The maintenance we do on the machine is quite basic: change the intermittent oil regularly and oil the lay-on roller shaft, apart of course from keeping it clean. I used these machines in London at the NFT for years and they were excellent, but then they were stand alone and not being at all compromised by being on the back of an FP30. Does anyone know this type of arrangement? Is it possible to remedy these points in-house?

Any advice appreciated! I think someone in here wanted a manual, so anything I have here I could scan and send in if desirable.

David.

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 11-30-2010, 02:38 PM:

I was before a month in London, Old Master's House - Cinema Museum, they have two Kinoton FP38's just like that, both with 500W lamps.

About that noise....it could be intermitent, but maybe it's just pressing skates that are old and used, so they are tiny and stocking between sprocket wholes, but you didn't say which machine makes noise, 35mm or 16mm part?
Is there noise when running without film? As you said focus is bad now, probably skates are weared and not equaly, so film don't sit straight in gates.

Let us know more simptoms here. If everything is okay with intermitent, than other things you could easyly to do repair by you're own.

Posted by David Boyd (Member # 4936) on 12-01-2010, 09:09 AM:

Thanks Marin. The noise, a loud Brrrrrr when running at normal speed i.e. quiet when just running up, is only on the 16mm side and is present without film. I'll try to find some 16mm line up chart and start fiddling about with the focus problem. It will be worth getting this done though as the machines are excellent, even if they are top-heavy on maintenance! Cheers.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 12-01-2010, 05:57 PM:

David, I have an FP-18 movement, used in good condition, if you need one. I think I have it posted in the Equipment forum, if not PM me.

Marin is on the right track, check the condition of the skates, very critical on the 16mm side.

Another possibility, check carefully around the intermittent sprocket and make sure there isn't a bit of film or splice tape wedged behind the sprocket.

I have the same machines, check out UC Irvine HIB 100 in the pics warehouse.

Posted by David Boyd (Member # 4936) on 12-03-2010, 10:16 AM:

Thanks Tony for your kind reply. I had a quick look in the equipment forum but perhaps it is buried deep in there, so I haven't found it yet. I'll get some more work done on this shortly. Heavy snow here has as you might imagine caused most things to grind to a halt, and I spent two hours dashing about in a cab collecting from out of town depots two 35mm prints and one 70mm, so it's reacting to crises again. But I have located some 16mm test film which is as rare as hens' teeth - SMPTE 16-PA which they don't make any more, so that'll be a great help in getting things back on track. If I need the intermittent I can contact you? Thanks again, Marin too, it is greatly appreciated. David.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-03-2010, 11:42 AM:

Please note, Boston Light & Sound is MAKING 16mm target film!

PDF of BLSI Test Film

You won't find ANY "Kinoton" manuals in the Manuals section. Kinoton holds onto their copyrights tightly. You may see "Norelco" manuals of older equipment though I don't think the FP16 manual is listed at this time either.

-Steve

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 12-03-2010, 12:52 PM:

David, you're welcome. If it is there it should be in the first 4-5 pages. Or maybe I am brain fading and haven't listed it yet, in any event if you need it you may contact me by PM.

I may also have a spare copy of the manual (for the FP-18) which I can also send over, let me look for it this weekend.