Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Set the dwell

This is topic Set the dwell in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by David E. Nedrow (Member # 4981) on 01-04-2011, 05:09 PM:

quote: Phil Hill
+ make sure pull-down is at dwell when threading "in frame".

This was a note from Phil in another thread, which put me in mind of a recent "incident" here.

There's a guy who used to manage this theatre and is willing to come in a night or two a month to give me a day off in the booth.

Since his days, I've changed from a platter to a spool tower, and added DTS. So, he came over for some intro/review on the equipment.

I showed him how the feed/rewind setups for the tower, went over the threading path, etc.

I walked him through the threading, including setting the dwell. Showed him how to advance the frame by hand to check gross framing, etc. He did fine.

When it was showtime and he actually hit the start button, he then immediately made a grab for the framing knob!

"STOP, STOP, what are you doing?!?!," says I.

"In case it's out of frame," says he.

So I explained how setting the dwell properly would mean that a film should never start out of frame. He commented that when the theatre was run by the former operators, framing was almost always wrong and they had to rack the framing knob on virtually every show!

The people that used to run this theatre have a local reputation with the public as being a "classy" art film house, but their presentation is generally described as horrible. I know of a couple of theatres that won't even take prints that have been run by them.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-04-2011, 05:41 PM:

..got one better: I know of a poorly run 5plex in another state where the booth personnel, when doing trailer paks, have to crank the framer per every trailer presentation since they don't know anything about frame lines at the beginning and end of the trailers..

When the previous manager who is now their IT person, put a movie together for them, they bet him 20 bucks that his trailer pak would be out of frame ... and he won that 20 due to his pak presentation was perfect. They ask him how he did it and he showed them .. "Gee, we were never shown that...!"

Funny is that the present manager used to work at another theatre as a booth monkey, yet he knew how to splice in frame...

.Oh, that manager is gone now and they finally have someone decent in there to do trailer paks (with yellow tape-that is all they know on what to use..)

-Monte

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 01-04-2011, 05:43 PM:

I've had the same issue with former booth operators from other theatres. No one ever showed them how to set the intermittent at the "dwell" or "rest" position BEFORE loading the film into the gate and then pulling it down a few frames to double-check framing before starting the show. Trying to break bad habits is one reason why I now avoid hiring former booth operators. I'd rather take someone who has zero booth experience and train them.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-05-2011, 08:04 PM:

So...would you never even consider someone with previous booth experience?

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 01-05-2011, 08:14 PM:

I had a projectionist who learned at Carmike. He said no one had ever explained how to set the dwell. Which is why I train all of my projectionists, no matter how much experience they have.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 01-05-2011, 09:01 PM:

Are you already looking for another job Manny?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-05-2011, 09:02 PM:

I guess his work is almost done [Wink]

Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 01-05-2011, 11:49 PM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
I know of a poorly run 5plex in another state

Oh come on Monte - spill the beans.

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 01-06-2011, 12:35 AM:

quote: Manny Knowles
So...would you never even consider someone with previous booth experience?

Wouldn't say never, I just try to avoid it, unless their references check out or I have some personal knowledge of the training of the theatre(s) they are coming from. And maybe if I recognize the person's name as being some one who contributes to these boards and is well respected. So yeah, you could be a strong contender. [Big Grin]

I also have some basic booth operations questions I ask during the interview to gauge what kind of training they've had.

Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 01-06-2011, 03:10 PM:

When training new operators, not only do I constantly preach "RESET THE INTERMITTENT" before threading, but also demand that they advance the flywheel several frames after their thread is completed. These were old habits I learned from my changeover days many moons ago. It was considered a sin to come in out of frame.

If you beat this into their heads, there is absolutely NO excuse to come in out of frame, or for that matter, chowder a leader.

Speaking of the old days, I had heard that if you came in out of frame at Radio City Music Hall just once, you had a quick ticket out the door. Any truth to that? Maybe some of our older members who worked in the IATSE New York City local could confirm or refute.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-06-2011, 03:17 PM:

I know old "pros" that worked 40-50 years and never had an out-of-frame either on startup or during the reel. Messing up was unthinkable and if you did you would be razzed for decades.

My job was to service their equipment. Half of my "old pros" would wipe my finger prints off the door knobs when I left. I knew better than to touch a projector other than at the door knob or pad roller handle. Louis

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 01-06-2011, 04:16 PM:

"Setting the dwell" is new-speak to me. We always referred to it as "setting the intermittent".

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 01-06-2011, 06:46 PM:

I harp about this problem all the time at my theatre. Yet, every day when I work, I find that the Ultramittent has been moved either to the top or bottom of its bore. I move them back to center, and go from there.

The only people there that start films in frame every time, like I do, are the people that I trained personally.

As for building prints in frame, I build everything, so there is no problem there.

Posted by David E. Nedrow (Member # 4981) on 01-16-2011, 12:27 AM:

quote: Rick Raskin
"Setting the dwell" is new-speak to me. We always referred to it as "setting the intermittent".

I guess to be accurate, one should say, "Set the intermittent to its dwell, or rest, position." [Wink]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-16-2011, 01:03 PM:

quote: Bruce McGee
I harp about this problem all the time at my theatre. Yet, every day when I work, I find that the Ultramittent has been moved either to the top or bottom of its bore.

There can be an easy fix: take the FRAME knob off, and with a Christie, there is no backside frame knob like there is on the Simplex.

That might teach them to "lock the sprocket" before lacing up the machine.

...or, go to digital and get the movies on autoscheduler...

-Monte

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-16-2011, 06:49 PM:

I have never heard it called "dwell" because I live in the USA and am a red-blooded American. When training I usually just say "set the intermittent, numbnuts". But I go a step further than just threading the film when the intermittent is at rest. The intermittent must have JUST STOPPED its rotation to be in the correct position. This makes threading much easier and your loop sizes will be exactly the same each and every time whereas if you just thread when the intermittent is simply "at rest", the loop sizes will never be perfectly consistent. Also, once you thread it up this way, you can take note where on the sprockets the frame lines of the leader are. The next time you thread (from the bottom up, of course) you set the intermittent, put the frame line on the bottom sprocket in the correct position and work your way up, putting the frame lines where they should be. Thread in frame and your loop size will be the same every time. After a few thread-ups you will be crazy accurate and probably faster, too. No need to go back and readjust loop sizes.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-16-2011, 10:00 PM:

I agree about setting the intermittent at its "just stopped" position for consistency.

But I've never taken to that whole "from the bottom up" philosophy, so I don't get the "of course" part. (And, yes, I've tried it.)

A projectionist friend of mine in Los Angeles used to call it "clearing the intermittent."

Posted by Jake Spell (Member # 5294) on 01-16-2011, 10:46 PM:

I used to thread from the top down all the time till I read the tips here, started goin from bottom up and the leader never touches the floor. And as Joe said, I thread faster and mistakes are non-existent.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-16-2011, 11:09 PM:

The direction honestly does not matter, but what DOES matter is that the leader never touches the floor. Ever. Bottom-up is just the easiest way to do that. Some people try it and it is different from what they learned and they just don't have the ability to adapt. If that's the case, just having the leader locked on the bottom sprocket while you thread the rest down (and then re-adjust that bottom sprocket) works well.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 01-16-2011, 11:36 PM:

I have never heard it called "setting the dwell" only "setting the intermittent" but what you are actually doing is setting the intermittent to the dwell position.

I agree with Joe about setting it until it just stops.

Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 01-16-2011, 11:45 PM:

quote: Sean McKinnon
I agree with Joe about setting it until it just stops.

I know Joe doesn't trust me, but everything he says is correct. I do it the same way he does. I'll admit I was a top threader though until I learned the new way here on film-tech. People give me some crazy looks when I go from the bottom up. None of them has asked me why I do it though, they probably just think I'm a whacko.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-16-2011, 11:52 PM:

I can "bottom-up" a Simplex setup in decent time (course, not as fast as doing the "top-down" traditional setup), but still working on it some with the Christie....when I get the chance, but it's nothing to loose sleep over with.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-17-2011, 12:31 AM:

quote: Eric Robinson
I know Joe doesn't trust me

This is true. Your face changes colors. You are clearly up to something.

quote: Eric Robinson
People give me some crazy looks when I go from the bottom up. None of them has asked me why I do it though

Same here, though I don't usually look to see if they are looking at me funny. I've always wanted someone to go "Wait! What in the name of Zeus are you doing??!!" Nobody ever asks WTF is going on when I rewind the film cleaner and thread it right up again, either. I just think that bystanders don't pay much attention. I'm doing my thing and they just let me do it.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-17-2011, 12:46 AM:

There isn't one single "correct" way. That's BS.

Threading "bottom up" is not the only way to keep film off the floor. Great if it works for you.

As for speed: it's over-rated. I hate feeling rushed when I'm working in the booth, and so I avoid creating scenarios where it will be necessary to rush.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-17-2011, 03:15 AM:

Who said there was one correct way? To quote myself:

quote: Joe Redifer
The direction honestly does not matter, but what DOES matter is that the leader never touches the floor. Ever.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-17-2011, 01:16 PM:

..but....we can also clean our leaders from time to time...

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-17-2011, 11:09 PM:

$%&*!! Just don't let them get dirty in the first place, much easier! Also much more effective.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-18-2011, 02:52 AM:

Sorry, Joe.

I guess I was really disagreeing with your statement that "bottom up" is the *easiest* way to keep the leader off the floor. For me, it isn't.

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 01-18-2011, 06:53 AM:

It's ok, Manny.
Just don't dwell on it. [Big Grin]

Posted by David E. Nedrow (Member # 4981) on 01-18-2011, 12:02 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
But I go a step further than just threading the film when the intermittent is at rest. The intermittent must have JUST STOPPED its rotation to be in the correct position.

Absolutely. I show them how to do it in that manner. I warn them not to be fooled by just stopping when it dwells. Sorry, that's what I've always called it, since it's a commonly used term in mechanics, and no one ever had the time to teach me any of this stuff. In a technical/mechanical sense, something coming to rest is very different than something that is dwelling. One indicates it's not going to move again, the other is clearly a pause in mechanical motion. I always have them do a full rotation so that the correct point in the rotation is reached. As Joe noted, it provides a consistent loop, among other benefits.

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 01-18-2011, 01:09 PM:

I like to practice my speed skills at all times when threading!
I pretend my life depends on a perfect fast thread up!
This keeps it fun but also can help your speed in a emergency situation!
Like when or if King Kong smashes his way up the balcony to get at you and you want to finish your thread and get the hell out of there! [Razz]

Posted by James Falloon (Member # 1933) on 01-18-2011, 05:21 PM:

You know you're a Projectionist when ^^^

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-18-2011, 06:27 PM:

Manny, what is your method of threading?

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 01-18-2011, 06:54 PM:

I always threaded top down and then read the posts here and gave the bottoms up a try and actually like it and have pretty much stuck with it, but to tell you the truth, it doesn't seem to make a hill-o-beans difference either way to me -- no appreciable advantage. All you really need to focus on the key issue and that is that the leader can't touch the floor; I can accompish that threading either way.

And as for the "dwell" thing, if you want get really fancy and to talk digital-speak, you can say the intermittent needs to be at its NULL position. heh heh

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-18-2011, 07:10 PM:

Why won't anyone who threads top down state HOW they keep the leader off of the floor? Do you do as I described above by locking it on the bottom sprocket or similar? I imagine if you start top-down you need to go with the gate first, otherwise you'll always be re-adjusting that top loop.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-18-2011, 07:15 PM:

If running on reels, it's easy to keep the leader off of the floor. Just wind the leader around the takeup reel (I don't use the slot, personally), then pull some slack from the feed reel and thread the machine top-down. No film will come anywhere close to the floor. And if you have Kinotons with the "POS" buttons, it is easy to thread anywhere on the leader and slowly motor down to "8" or whereever without risking damage to the mechanism. (And if your Kinotons have electronic intermittents, they will always start from the dwell position.)

The leader-on-the-floor problem is really a platter-specific issue.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-18-2011, 07:55 PM:

Oh now lets not forget how the EXPERTS run film reel-to-reel and perform changeovers!

Archived here

This is probably my favorite video on the internet. Never has there been, nor ever will there be projectionists quite as shitty as these guys.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 01-18-2011, 09:13 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
Never has there been, nor ever will there be projectionists quite as shitty as these guys.

True. It'd be hard to beat. [Frown]

Posted by Joe Elliott (Member # 4006) on 01-18-2011, 09:39 PM:

I love the scratches they put on the print that you can see on the screen, and the fact that they cannot get it to frame properly afterwards!!! I can't see anything that they do right.

Posted by Jim Henk (Member # 3628) on 01-19-2011, 12:04 AM:

OWWWWW!! OWWWWW!

It burns!

My jaw was right down on the floor with the film and what was left of these guys dignity!

Make it stop...

Posted by Jake Spell (Member # 5294) on 01-19-2011, 01:11 AM:

Come on guys!! They were just trying to show off that you don't REALLY NEED two projectors to run real to real. I mean so what if you see a little leader, and its not in frame, and you scratch the print to hell and back. Hell these guys don't even need a booth!!!

Just think off all the money they are saving, because at the end of the day thats all that matters, right? [Big Grin]

But seriously, WTF were they smokin when they thought that was film done right... [Confused]

Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 4255) on 01-19-2011, 05:33 AM:

Love that video. Particularly the preachy (original youtube) comments about how much of a shocking and unspeakable tragedy this is, and the author replies quite matter of factly that these are junked prints and that it's just a bit of fun with what is essentially rubbish.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-19-2011, 01:11 PM:

Looks like they're going from the last reel of one movie to a different reel of another. It's funny how this gets more responses buried in a thread it has nothing to do with than legit Film-Tech videos such as the Arlington tour which have their own thread (and sometimes don't even get threads made about them). What's wrong with you people?

Anyway, back to my original question: how do those of you who thread top-down keep the leader off of the floor (platter users only)?

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-20-2011, 01:33 AM:

I thread the gate first, then everything above and then everything below.

I don't really have a scientific answer for why I do it this way. I think I just like having the gate sorted out before forming the Latham loops around it. But that's just a guess. Another guess is that I think it requires the greatest degree of dexterity and so I just like to "be done with it." Another theory is that it's the area where new projectionists have the toughest time - due to the dexterity and also the issue of threading in frame - so that's the first thing I have them do over and over on the first day - just thread the gate. But these are all guesses.

As for keeping leader off the floor...

For changeovers, I wind the leader onto the takeup reel, leaving just enough "slack" to provide for threading - the slack does not touch the floor - it just forms a kind of "U" shape from the takeup reel.

When I work with platters, I lace up the entire platter system from payout to projector and back to rewind - and then thread the projector in the same way as above. Again, leader never touches the floor. By the time I've threaded the lower half of the projector, I just need to give a gentle "tug" to engage the rewind.

Once threaded, I either run-down or hand-crank down to whatever frame I need to start from.

Going at my regular "I'm in no hurry" pace, I would guess it takes me about 3 minutes to thread a projector. Could I go faster? Sure. But I don't see the need. I prefer to keep myself calm. I find that I have a better projection experience that way.

I can recall a thread on here years ago - the theme was similar - how do you thread up? - and inevitably (i guess) the subject of speed arose - so i got curious and started timing myself. I was self-conscious because I was so much slower than everyone else. So I worked at getting my speed up. I think I ended up threading platters in something like a minute and a half. It didn't stick, though. I don't see the need. When your days often 13+ hours, you just want to pace yourself and avoid errors.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-20-2011, 03:04 AM:

Heard that some operators would place a lined trash can to catch the leader so it wouldn't hit the floor - or a series of devices inbetween platter and machine that would allow the lead to be suspended above the floor while lacing so they can do the "top down" method.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-20-2011, 04:48 AM:

A "gentle tug" won't suffice with a Strong platter. It requires a rather significant tug and you need to be very careful otherwise it will slam into itself and destroy leader. If you tug it gently, the rewind deck will take off with the torque of a thousand tractor trailers and destroy leader. I always tug and engage the rewind deck before I start threading the projector, Strong or Christie. Even Super Platters.

I would like to see video of various peeps threading, all the while keeping leader off of the floor. Platters only. Keeping off of the floor with changeovers is too easy, it's almost harder to get it on the floor.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-20-2011, 09:32 AM:

A small, clean cardboard box works OK as well.

(You could make the case that, since leader never runs through a projector, it doesn't matter anyway. A circuit that we once knew had 35mm UNPERFORATED leader to the threadup point. i guarantee you thsat this never ran through a projector.) louis

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-20-2011, 09:45 AM:

Joe - I'm talking about when I had Christie AW3's, which is what I had when I still worked with platters on a regular basis (up til 2003).

Last time I worked with Strong platters was 1997 when I still worked for AMC. I'd go give the rewind platter a spin to engage the tension (at the end). I guess you (and your kind) can do it before threading coz you work bottom-up.

I suspect people may be apprehensive to post a video of themselves working for fear that they'd just picked apart "for doing it wrong."

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-20-2011, 02:12 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
You could make the case that, since leader never runs through a projector, it doesn't matter anyway.

You could try to make that case, but you'd be wrong. Dirt does transfer from layer to layer. Why do you think the first thing that hits the screen at most theaters is usually incredibly dirty? Because of the leader touching the floor, that's why.

Manny, as long as the leader doesn't touch the floor, the rest of the technique doesn't matter. There wouldn't be anything to pick apart from that. I don't really care about speed, either. I'm just curious to see how people keep it from touching the floor when they make these claims. I'm not a big fan of the box as that is cumbersome and not really effective. Better than the floor, not as good as the air.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-20-2011, 10:54 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
I'm just curious to see how people keep it from touching the floor when they make these claims.

My first time meeting Scott Norwood was in 2003 when I was in Boston for a Dolby training session, and he was running a Technicolor print of Alfred Hitchcock's "Rear Window."

Scott showed me a neat way to take the leader off the supply reel and get it down to the takeup reel without it touching the floor. Up until that point, I had only ever worked with platters, so that evening I got a few of my long-standing questions answered. Scott's neat method stuck with me and, when I started doing changeover shows (about a year later) I remembered it. I still do it Scott's way.

It's kind-of impossible to explain in words. Maybe Scott will post a video..?

Posted by David E. Nedrow (Member # 4981) on 01-29-2011, 09:09 PM:

Joe, et al,

I have always threaded top down, but leader on the floor wasn't a problem in the past, as I always ran reel-to-reel w/ changeover.

But, with the use of a spool tower, I've been having a devil of a time trying to figure out a functional way to keep the leader off the floor, since the spool tower is on one side of the room, and the projector on the other. I've tried rolling a large loop, but then I have to manage that as I thread. I've been tempted to place some type of clamp on the ceiling just to hold the film while I thread.

Then I read about bottom-up threading in this topic, and it solved my problems. I can "lock" the leader from the takeup to the last sprocket, then work my way back WITHOUT having to manage a bunch of film in one hand.

Thanks all!