quote: Steve Guttag

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.....Be careful though...the 4675C is a 4-Ohm cabinet...when you bridge an amp into it, you will effectively be driving that amp into a 2-Ohm load...

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Now how the hell do you come up with that? A 4-ohm speaker is a 4-ohm speaker, no matter what amp is driving it, bridged or not. As long as the amp is capable of driving a 4-ohm load in bridge mode, there is no problem.

Take a 4-ohm resistor, drive it with an amp, connect it to a battery, or feed it 120,240,480 vac and it is still a 4-ohm load. (Other than frequency-dependent impedance changes.)

Randy, the DCM series of amps would probably give you the best bang for the buck in your situation. Good power, excellent reliability, easy to add crossovers to later, and you can use a DCM series monitor for everything including the PA.
 

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Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 02-09-2011, 02:42 PM:
 
I think what he means is that if you put a stereo amp into a bridged configuration, you're turning two amps into one, which also means that each amp is doing half the work. That would mean half the work of a 4 ohms is 2.

I'd just use half of each amp until you go active and not explain your reasoning to whoever pays the bills
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-09-2011, 04:11 PM:
 
Jarret is partially correct...each half is doing all of the work but as far as the amp is concerned, the load is 2-Ohms. Yes, Tony, the AMP, if its rated into 4-Ohms BRIDGED will be fine but if that amp has a 4-Ohm bridged rating will also have a 2-Ohm stereo rating...why? The amp channels are being loaded the same...you find the distortion ratings tend to follow in that too.

Since USA 800 amps were brought up prior in discussion...there is an amp I would NOT run into a 4-Ohm load Bridged...I've tested the USA amps into 2-Ohm stereo and they REALLY over heat and their distortion figures go WAY up. I think there was a period where QSC gave them a 2-Ohm rating (stereo (4-Ohm mono) and it was with something like 1% distortion with 1KHz.

For many amps, driving into that low impedance gets one more distortion but there are those, like the DCA that seem to have no problem whatsoever. In fact, the DCA1222 is fine down to 1.6-Ohms. (A little under published fact.)

But seriously Tony...do you really think I don't know my way around amplifiers and electric circuits?

-Steve
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-21-2011, 06:16 PM:
 
Just got a message back from our dealer about the amps we need to replace.

He is asking me what I think Ashly KLR Series.

http://www.ashly.com/klrseriesamplifi.html

Specifically, the KLR-2000.

2,000 w @ 4 Ω/Bridged -- 600 w @ 4Ω/Stereo

It kinda' looks okay to me but I've never used Ashly before. What do you all think?
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 02-21-2011, 07:43 PM:
 
Search Ashly amps here, Gordon has some info on them. EDIT: Here's post #3 in this thread:

quote: Gordon McLeod

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The USA amps were decent they were the series 2 amps such as the 1400
Sold lots of the USA and almost all are still in service unlike all the Ashleys and Haflers that seem to be going in the bin

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I wouldn't use anything other than QSC DCM....for the price, you can't beat the reliability, energy efficiency and performance.

Sounds like your dealer is pushing Ashly because he can get them cheap and charge a higher markup.
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 02-21-2011, 07:48 PM:
 
IMHO, it's too late for Ashly in cinema. They sell very few in our industry. Market share is almost zero.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-21-2011, 09:06 PM:
 

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr

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Sounds like your dealer is pushing Ashly because he can get them cheap and charge a higher markup.

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What else is new? He once told me that he convinced my boss to buy something just so he could get rid of it.

You guys are saying pretty much what I thought. We'll buy the Ashlys for cheap but will end up buying new ones in a few years as they crap out. Right?

I must have been a murderer in a previous life because there's no other explanation why I have to go through all this trouble just to buy a few freakin' amplifiers!
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 02-21-2011, 09:59 PM:
 
That is a model from Ashly that I have no information on.

The older series (sold nearly 8000) are all still running well, fully supported and no problems. I do not know of any Ashlys in the dust bin.

Typical 8 plex has 80 modules(40 amps). 3 bad in 16 years is not bad.

I will agree that the 3db down at 100k will cause an inadequate installation to not function well. Louis
 

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Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 02-22-2011, 03:43 AM:
 

quote: Louis Bornwasser

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3 bad in 16 years is not bad.

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quote: Scott Norwood

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Am I the only one who dislikes the QSC monitor? The single power switch for all amps is nice, but the sound quality and loudness leave something to be desired....

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My vote is yes you are..the DCM monitors are quiet (unlike the CE MS-100s which always hum) and have great sound quality. If you have loudness issues with the monitor then the gain structure in your system is not set up correctly.

My only beef with them is the current firmware version has some issues when monitoring amp outputs. (One is there is no load fault indication if an amplifier is accidentally left off, the other is even with the amp off you can still hear audio.) Sam H. is aware of these issues and is supposed to get a firmware update done soon.
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 02-22-2011, 01:20 PM:
 
It's Ashly as in the so-so amp, not Ashley like in "Gone with the Wind"
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-23-2011, 03:32 PM:
 
It's getting down to the time when I have to decide on recommending this equipment.

So let me ask it this way...

Can we say that the Ashly amp is "as good as any" but it's still a cheap amp?

I would rather have QSC.

Should I just say that it's okay for the Ashly or should I push for QSC. (Remembering the fact that our dealer might be pushing cheap equipment for his own profit.)

Could I say that Ashly are "okay" but we might end up buying new amps in a couple-few years anyway?

What kind of price difference is there between QSC and Ashly? I'm not privy to dealer prices on the two brands so I can't really make any statements based on that.

If the price between the two only differs by a hundred bucks or so, I would be confident in pushing for QSC but if there is a big price gap I would have a hard time making the case.

Do you think I should punt on this one?
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-23-2011, 03:46 PM:
 
Randy,

There is one guy on Film-Tech that loves Ashly (or at least loved them for a period of time) and he will defend them...which is only right because he truly likes them. It is his opinion and he is entitled to it.

I can not express my dislike of Ashly (and yet I like the guy that likes them) enough. They are absolute horrible sounding pieces of belchfiring CRUD. They suck. I've reconed many a cooked driver that was toasted by an Ashly. I've never heard one that I thought sounded any good either. Reliability is another thing...I don't know if they have solved their switch/pot issues but I've seen stacks of amps cease to put out what they call sound due to stupid stuff like that.

Only a fool would buy Ashly...have I made my point? And if you check my posts...I almost NEVER post a negative "review" of a product...I tend to be more silent on it.

But Ashly versus QSC? There should not be a comparison. That is like a Yugo versus most any decent car. Sure, you can find the odd Yugo fanatic, or the tale of the one that worked/survived. But if you do any real research of people with Ashly versus QSC...you are going to find something on the order of 90-10 on the QSC favor on satisfaction.

I'm not saying QSC is the end all amp company (though their support in Cinema is VERY high) but Ashley should not even be allowed to be compared to them.

On the monitor front...I'm with Scott... I'm not a fan of the DCM series at all. Not the best in DSP, and their gain structure is all off...you can clip the monitor long before you clip the amplifier...dumb.

What the DCM series did was allow even the incompetent to wire up a sound rack effectively using the HD15 cables (which I also don't like). It must have been a great idea since most everyone in the cinema industry has decided to follow suit! All in all, they have done more good than harm. I'll give them that.

But lets face it...nobody really makes a decent monitor for the cinema. Panastereo tried by making just the selector and amplifier. It worked pretty well (though I found it a bit noisy). What I would like is a selector/preamp system that gives me line out and then I can couple that to a real monitor, like a Wohler in the rack or use a VCA (Oxmoor) and real speakers mounted on the wall.

-Steve
 

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Posted by John Hegel (Member # 628) on 02-23-2011, 08:24 PM:
 
As far the house requirments go, do you do a lot of national acts? Many riders require Crest or QSC amps.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-23-2011, 08:37 PM:
 
Randy, there is only one choice for amplifiers for your application, QSC. I strongly prefer the DCA line, as you will find most others will agree.

Ashly makes a good amp until they get old. Then as Steve pointed out they start killing drivers, having random level changes and static due to their pots, etc. Don't do it. Stick with QSC amps.

I'm with Steve on the monitors too. Nobody really makes a good one. For what you are doing though with bi-amping, the DCM would probably suit you just fine.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-23-2011, 10:14 PM:
 
Forget the new vs old thing...I've seen Ashly amps belch fire when new, oscillate themselves into a frenzy...you name it. Perhaps I've only seen the bad ones but they suck even when new. Even if they work, I've never found one that I though sounded good!
 

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Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 02-23-2011, 10:15 PM:
 
If you do go with the Ashly amps I would stay away from the built in crossover modules.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-23-2011, 10:40 PM:
 
I'm going to push for the QSC.

Why would anybody spend $10K to upgrade a sound system then try to save a few dollars by using cheap amps? Amps that might go up in smoke, blow drivers or just generally sound like crap.

I asked for QSC amps in the first place. Ashly never even crossed my mind. I didn't even know they were still in business anymore. I have no idea how or why this guy came up with Ashly when I asked for something else.

I did expect him to try to sell us those amps from Face Audio. The last time he tried to sell Face, I said, "Face is an ancient Chinese word for 'crap.'"

Sounds to me like those Ashly amps would go well with that old Smart MOD-II B we just replaced.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-24-2011, 11:11 AM:
 
Just got a message back from our dealer.

He claims he can't get QSC and Ashly is all he can get.

I want to pull the rug out from under him and get them somewhere else. I'll even order them direct if I can. A lot manufacturers will deal direct with us because Mercyhurst is a non-profit institution. (At least that's what I've been told.)

Can you guys check my work so I can be sure I'm getting the right amps, please.

I'm thinking about the DCA 1222 or the 1622.

I've got JBL 4675C behind the screen.
(Don't have surrounds. Subs are another matter to be dealt with later.)

• House has 800 seats with a balcony. (600 downstairs. 200 upstairs.)
• We don't usually seat the balcony during movies.
• Approx 100 ft. from screen to far wall of house.
• Approx 50 ft. across.
• Approx 50 ft. high, from grid to deck.
• Stage house is about 80 ft. wide, 40 ft. deep and 60 ft. tall. (I'm going to try to build a baffle behind the speakers. Another thing to deal with later.)

I want to get three amps. 1 each for center, left and right and bridge them. Then, later, if I can convince them to run the wires, I'll split the amps, add crossovers and turn it into a bi-amped system.
I think I've got the right amps picked out but I'd appreciate the check.

I want to get this done as quickly as possible.
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 02-24-2011, 01:35 PM:
 
I would get the 1622's.

Several of us on this forum can sell these to you. QSC is good about selling B and C stock if you need to stretch your budget. Warranty is like a new amp.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-06-2011, 02:38 PM:
 
Update:

I received three brand new QSC DCA-1622 amplifiers yesterday. I was up until the cows came home last night installing them and tuning up the system.

Two words: KICK ASS!

I would characterize the difference in sound quality at nearly an order of magnitude better! There is almost as much difference between the DCA amps and the old ones as there was when I upgraded from the Smart cinema processor to the Dolby CP650.

I now have three amps, one for each screen channel. They operate in bridged mode, sending full range to the stage. The crossovers in the JBL cabinets handle conversion.

With the original amps, I had the output of the processor turned up to approx 75 (in the setup menu, not the master fader) but now, the output settings are in the mid 40's. Even then, I am now setting the master fader at 5.0 where it was originally at 6.0. Even at the lower fader setting, the sound is louder but because there is so much less distortion, the higher volume levels are tolerable. (And, even quite comfortable!)

This is the cool part: Literally... pun intended...
Even after running for two hours, playing a movie at moderate to loud levels the amps are completely cool. If you put your hand on the back of the chassis/cover they are not even warm at all. When you place your hand over the air vent the air that comes out is actually cool.

I think the amps sound great as they are but I am going to have my boss's sound tech come in to "help" equalize the system for the room. Honestly, I don't think it's needed but I do this just to satisfy the boss. Yes, I think I can do a proper job of EQ-ing for the room but if his guy comes to bless my work he will feel better. (I hate politics!)

We're pretty much on our way! We have seen attendance improving in the last few weeks. The last two weeks, we actually had near sell-outs! This an 800 seat house! While last week's movie was "The King's Speech," I still think the improved attendance had something to do with the improvements in sound.

I'm hoping this will pave the way for me to get surround sound installed in this theater. (Fingers crossed!)

P.S.: Thanks for all your help, Sam!
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-06-2011, 05:21 PM:
 

quote: Sam D. Chavez

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IMHO, it's too late for Ashly in cinema. They sell very few in our industry. Market share is almost zero.

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Less then zero perhaps in this day and age. They haven't been to a Cinema type show in years nor are they very good at answering their phones. As a result of them not picking up the phones I have removed more of them than I can count on both hands and many have been replaced by... low and behold... rebult QSC USA 1400's and 900's that are well over 20 years old and will probably serve very well until they are 40 years old... A properly set up and biased QSC Series One (1400, 900, etc.) sounds excellent even today.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-06-2011, 06:20 PM:
 
Sure...give Sam the credit...all he did was pick out the amp model (get the larger one...you can't go wrong)...what about saving you from the horrible fate of having Ashly amps?

Enjoy.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-06-2011, 07:15 PM:
 
Yes, Steve. Thank you!

I have a story to tell but I don't know if I should tell it in the clear:

Spoiler Alert - Click to Toggle

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I printed out the forum message where you said that Ashly amps were horrible pieces of fire-belching crud and showed it to my supervisor. (Not the main boss.) He took the message and showed it to the guy who was trying to sell us the Ashly amps. The next time I saw him the guy barely said two words to me.
It was a busy day so I'm sure he just didn't have time. Besides, he gets to bill us for the time it will take to come and bless the setup so he'll get a few bucks out of it.

---

Sam is the one who had to deal with the bureaucracy that is Mercyhurst. Brad knows it too. This place is just too difficult to explain it words. It has to be experienced.

Truthfully, everybody here deserves a bit of thanks.
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 04-06-2011, 10:22 PM:
 
Yes, the older qsc's are fine.

Ashly was sold, still answers the phone for me, repairs modules for me, and, though not so much in Cinema, is still very much in business.

I'll buy those amps, Mark. Still quite a high demand from high end and studio (UK) users. Reliable, quiet, and no distortion. louis
 

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Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 04-06-2011, 10:56 PM:
 
Congratulations on the new amps Randy! Having been a part of doing some sound upgrades for a client in SoCal last summer, I know how it feels to have new capable toys to play with. Our client staff was overjoyed on opening night with the new sound of their screens.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-18-2011, 01:56 PM:
 
Just for follow ups:

We've got the sound system all tuned up and working the way we want it. We're getting lots of compliments on the sound.

Where, once, my boss was apprehensive about spending the money, he's starting to warm up to the idea that it was a good move.
(As I knew he would. )

Now, it's time to work on getting surround sound in the room.
I told the boss that the CP650 has the outputs for the channels but, unless they are hooked up to amps and speakers, that signal just disappears into thin air and we're missing, literally half the sound.

More to come...
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-11-2012, 12:54 PM:
 
Just an update...

While the QSC amps and CP650 have been working perfectly for more than half a year, we recently installed new amplifiers for the house sound system.

Against my advice and after showing this message thread to my supervisor, he still bought Ashley for the house system. They have only been working for two or three months.

Guess what?

I'm sitting here, monitoring our presentation of the Met Opera HD broadcast (Gotterdamerung) and, in the quiet passages, I can hear noise coming from the speakers. It's a buzzing noise that sounds lie a buzz saw. It's not very loud but it's there and it's annoying as hell!

This is the third time this has happened in the last couple-few weeks.

At first, I thought it was my cinema system going bad. I went nuts trying to find the source of the noise. Finally, I completely shut down the entire cinema system, processor, amplifiers and all.

The noise was still there!

I turned the cinema system back on then shut down the house system amps, one by one and the noise went away.

I let the Ashly amps settle for a minute and turned them back on. They quieted down but they started making noise again a couple of days later. This has repeated a couple of times since then.

I just shut the amps off and I'm leaving them off until the opera is over. I don't want them making noise and disturbing the show.

I told my boss about this problem a couple of days ago but got a lukewarm response, skeptical at best.

It looks like Steve's "fire-belching crud" prediction is turning out to be true and I'm the one who is paying the price even though I advised against Ashly in the first place.

I've got a half a mind to turn the damn things back on and let them make noise so that somebody can complain about it but it makes me sick to the stomach to think of fucking up a show like that.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 02-11-2012, 01:58 PM:
 
Randy, methinks your boss is either getting kickbacks or blowjobs from that schmuck who sold the Ashlys to you guys.

And I am surprised you haven't thought of this solution to the Ashly problem yet, given your avatar pic.....

A loose neutral in the power serving those amps can cause a most unfortunate accident... *cough* *cough*. A technique that has been used in the past and is quite effective...and hard to prove it wasn't an accident.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-11-2012, 03:57 PM:
 
Not kickback, as far as I know, but cronyism and herd mentality.

They don't understand, nor do I think they have the capacity to understand. I would call them stupid but they are too ignorant to be stupid.

Yeah, I've thought of blowing things up, once or twice but, as ornery and rigid as I can be, I just don't have enough evil in my blood to kill a show even if I say I want to.

My avatar picture was taken in the electrical room that services this theater. (That shot was dummied up. Those cables are all loose tails, not connected to anything.) The room is concrete block bunker down in the basement. You don't know how many times I've thought of throwing the main service disconnect right before a show then locking the door to the room and breaking off a key in the cylinder. (And adding a couple of drops of Super Glue for good measure!)

I could never really do that. I just go find a place to lie down until the feeling goes away.

But, that's the kind of shit I have to put up with.
I don't know why I stuck it out in this hell hole for 15 years.
 

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Posted by Tim OBrien (Member # 5605) on 02-11-2012, 07:11 PM:
 
I've been watching this thread with (now vested) interest, having just replaced my Ashlys with QSC DCA series amps (3x DCA1622 biamped, DCA1824 and DCA3422) and the DCM10D. I can't boast of the same results as Randy and I'm frankly quite disappointed.

The first DCM arrived with a bad touch switch and was returned for replacement. The new one had an LED burn out the first week (actually, I discovered if you push very hard on the LED it lights). This would sure suggest to me some serious quality problems. I think this is the worst monitor I've ever used. I can't hear an intelligible word from it and toggling between processor and amps is like night and day on the screen channels. The sound coming from the amps side is muddy and unintelligible.

I've got plenty of sound and lots of headroom, but it's just not..."right" and I think the Ashlys sounded better when the crossovers were all working properly - which was almost never. I'm willing to concede that other work is probably required here to maximize the potential of this equipment, but for my money I had expected more.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-11-2012, 07:34 PM:
 
Tim, did you actually get into the monitor with your computer and set the proper crossover? Those aren't plug-and-play ya know.
 

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Posted by Tim OBrien (Member # 5605) on 02-11-2012, 09:39 PM:
 
Brad, I set the crossovers at 500hz and the default delay for JBL 4675C.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-11-2012, 10:47 PM:
 
Sorry your system isn't working as well as you planned.

I haven't used the DCM monitors so I can't advise you much. However, from reading this thread over again, it seems to me that they are one of those products that some people swear by but other people swear at.

Also, from what I read, I gather that they have to be set up the right way or else they won't work right. (Notwithstanding the quality control issue you had.)

All I can say is to go over your system with a fine-toothed comb and make sure that everything is hooked up correctly and that the settings are right.

Don't be afraid to spend the time to make sure your B-chain is calibrated correctly. B-chains are one of those things that people think they can let slide but it can be amazing just how much a difference a well-done EQ job can make. Installing new amplifiers into a sound system then skipping the B-chain adjustment is like building an addition on your house then refusing to put carpet on the floor.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 02-11-2012, 10:50 PM:
 
Tim, got to ask the next question which comes to mind: for the monitor to amp interconnects, did you use the HD15 cables QSC sells or did you use regular VGA cables? VGA cables are NOT recommended as they are not constructed properly for this application, QSC's have the audio send lines individually shielded from the other wires.

Something is not right here.

Who did the install? Did they perform a COMPLETE "A" AND "B" chain after installing the new equipment?

What cinema processor? How is it wired to the DCM? Are you accidentally using the crossovers in the processor as well as in the monitor?

This tells me there is a serious problem on the A and/or B chain side:

quote: Tim OBrien

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I can't hear an intelligible word from it and toggling between processor and amps is like night and day on the screen channels. The sound coming from the amps side is muddy and unintelligible.

---

The DCM's I have installed (well over 200 at this point) have always worked and sounded better than most other monitors out there.
 

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Posted by Tim OBrien (Member # 5605) on 02-12-2012, 03:34 PM:
 
Thanks for your input and I'm sorry if I hijacked your thread, Randy! To answer some questions, I'm using a CP650 (no Cat 791) connected to the DCM via a heavy duty (AWG20), shielded DB25 cable with straight pin-through. I'm also using the QSC data cables and Speakon connectors.

At no time has there been a comprehensive analysis of the system components, the room acoustics or a complete A and B-chain calibration. The reasons why might be of interest:

Technician #1 ignored my request to replace the Ashly components with QSC because he "didn't like them". He instead suggested that I have the Ashly crossovers and certain amps removed, rebuilt and installed, necessitating three separate trips. He pulled the existing 2-way crossovers in the R and L screen channels and temporarily replaced them with 3-way crossovers (!) and a spare amp that hummed so badly I had to disconnect it. I could see no reason to place a band-aid on equipment that was obsolete. Technician #1 refuses to work with me any more.

Technician #2 ordered the QSC equipment and performed the install but did only a very quick EQ after I complained that the dialog was muddy and the system seemed "out of balance".

Technician #3 was dispatched by #2 because he had more experience with QSC products. We did another quick EQ at the processor using the internal RTA and a single mic. No A-chain. We were able to clean up the dialog but there's still something missing, and the monitor is still a problem.

Most of the time I'm running with the fader at 7 but this occasionally has to be turned higher. If I'm using my OPPO BDP-95 connected to the processor through the analog outputs, the fader must be turned up to 9.

I don't think I'm being too critical. I agree that this system should have a proper and thorough A-chain and B-chain calibration. It seems to me that many technicians are being spread thin because of the demand for digital installations and so much of the rest of this work is becoming "not worth the time". I'm not sure what to do now...
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-12-2012, 06:58 PM:
 
Tim, I understand your pain and I hate to be the one to have to break this news to you, but the solution here is going to be very difficult, so brace yourself. Stop hiring those techs. They either don't have the know-how or are too lazy to do the job right.

I say it is a difficult solution because I have this feeling there are politics involved.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-12-2012, 10:45 PM:
 
Tim, you're not really hijacking this thread because your story is similar to mine.

We've both got asshole bosses who hire dipshit technicians then leave the mess for us to clean up.

The CP650 processor and the DCA amps really are as good as it gets but you MUST install and calibrate the equipment correctly or else it will sound like shit. No two ways about it.

Do you use Dolby Digital and/or DTS?
Do you use analog, optical sound?

First and foremost, get the equipment hooked up correctly.

Next, do an A-chain calibration. First in the projector then work back to the processor. The mechanical adjustment is critical to getting it right. There's no amount of adjustment that can be done at the processor to compensate an F-ed up sound reader. When that's done, go to the processor and tweak that up the way it's supposed to be. Done correctly, it's basically one continuous process. If your equipment is otherwise in good working order an A-chain should take you 15 minutes from start to finish. After that, touch-ups should take only a few minutes.

Next, get your digital readers working the way they should be. Use an oscilloscope. The DRAS software was meant to be used as an adjunct to the scope, not to be used in place of a scope.

After that, set your digital/analog frame offsets. Get it so you can't tell the difference in the lip sync when you switch between analog and digital.

Finally, calibrate your B-chain. Set your sound levels, calibrate the processor's RTA to the microphone input. Then do your house EQ.

If you do this all correctly, an untrained ear would not be able to tell the difference between analog and digital sound. You should be able to switch back and forth between formats and nobody in the audience will notice. Even a trained ear would have to listen carefully to tell the difference between analog and digital sound.

I don't know how to advise you on getting your bosses to do the right thing. I have actually had shouting matches with my boss, stamping my feet, pounding my fists on the desk and he still refused to listen. Luckily he's not the boss anymore but the ones who run the place now have gone from idiot to ignorant. I don't know which is worse.

I don't know your skill level as a technician. I can't advise you to do the work yourself. Regardless, I think you should still study up and learn how to do A-chains and B-chains. If for no other reason than to help you know if any tech your boss does hire is doing the job correctly.

It's bosses like ours who make guys like us go on rampages and shoot up our workplaces!
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 02-13-2012, 01:33 AM:
 
Tim thanks for the reply, and what Brad and Randy have said are spot-on.

Until you get a competent tech in there who knows and cares about what they are doing your sound will continue to be crap. It's not the equipment, it's the installer.

As for the issues you've experienced with the monitor, are you sure you were sold NEW equipment and not someone's cast-offs? The DCM/DCA series are pretty bullet proof and QSC has about the best quality control of any company (not to say that the occasional defective product or component doesn't slip by) but to have two bad DCM's in a row is very suspicious.

I don't know if you or the "techs" are the ones who set up the monitor but I am willing to bet someone missed a step and forgot to save the settings before disconnecting the laptop. If you do not do the disconnect correctly it will revert to default or previous settings or corrupt the settings file.

If I weren't on the far side of the country I would come by and do the setups for you to save you the grief.
 

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Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 02-13-2012, 12:48 PM:
 
Actually, if I am not mistaken Tim is the owner.

Tim - I'll send you contact info via PM of someone I use when I need 35mm work done, hopefully he is not one of the ones you used (although I know he is not in love with Ashleys).
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-13-2012, 05:30 PM:
 

quote: David Zylstra

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Actually, if I am not mistaken Tim is the owner.

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quote: Brad Miller

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They either don't have the know-how or are too lazy to do the job right.

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Simple solution to that, and it works pretty well -- tell them to get their sorry butts back in there and fix it. Add that they don't get paid until it works correctly and you are HAPPY. Nothing like holding up a paycheck to make someone jump to.
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 02-14-2012, 08:07 AM:
 
Re: Ashly. There are many models as there are with others.

Some use switching power supplies thta produce artifacts that can kill a hf driver or "blow" a monitor.

The FET/FTX amps must really be bad, that is why the UK studios have standardized on them.

I personally sold in excess of 6000 FET/FTX and WE don't have problems (other than the noisy switch/pot problem.)

That is why we made a drop in replacement for the "bad" crossover. Louis
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-14-2012, 08:51 AM:
 
Yeah...they drive on the wrong side of the road and use positive-ground electrical systems too. They also talk funny so they probably don't notice how nasty they sound.
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 02-14-2012, 10:27 AM:
 
Actually, they know exactly how they sound and they trade on it.

Never tell a Brit they travel on the wrong side of the road or prepare for a lecture on how they were driving while we were fending off arrows, etc.

BTW, a large part of the world drive on the left side. India, Australia, Thailand, Japan, China, etc.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-14-2012, 11:55 AM:
 
And they all are on the wrong side! Being wrong longer doesn't make one right!
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 02-14-2012, 12:10 PM:
 
Oy, getting into a pedantic discussion with a man that has taken to signing his own posts at the bottom as if we don't all know who he is...

Seriously dude. Dial back the ego a bit. A little obnoxious goes a long way.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-14-2012, 02:17 PM:
 
Oddly enough...I didn't put my name at the end of any of the recent posts...it is more of a reflex thing...like putting a period at the end of a sentence.
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 02-14-2012, 02:32 PM:
 
Actually, you did sign on the relay post earlier today.

I guess I objected to your recent comments on the reverse scope lenses to the effect, don't listen to all those previous posters.

I was not one offering an opinion, but having you come on like that stifles other posters.

You are occasionally wrong you know.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-14-2012, 02:53 PM:
 
Steve wrong omg steve be wrong I am shattered will probably have to go to the pub for the rest of the day
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-14-2012, 04:51 PM:
 
On the Reverse Anamorphic thing...that one I make no apologies on...the "advice" was flat out wrong.

A beef I have with some is when they offer "advice" on things they really do not know anything about or feel the need to empty their entire knowledge base on a post in the hopes that some of it, accurate or not, may help.

Reverse anamorphics suffer from uneven light and barrel distortion. They have but one purpose, to get very long EFs where the lenses designed for normal anamorphics fail. That is, in a 70.6mm OD lens, anything over 140mm will be slower (less light efficient). In the example Scott provided (150mm versus a 75w/reverse), the light loss would be negligible on the 150mm compared to the image distortion and lack of uniform light that the reverse would bring. The posters prior to me seemed to miss all of that. There is no way they have ever run target film or measured the light to come up with their "advice." I think Louis' post pretty much summed it up too.

The most popular users of reverse anamorphics is going to be Drive-Ins were the benefits will often overcome the downsides (they almost always need a VERY long lens)...once upon a time there were 101.6 dia lenses (4") to get f/1.7 out of them primarily for Drive-Ins. The Old Kollmorgen-Kaska KA299 anamorphic (4") was indeed a reverse, primarily but could be used as a forward (had threads on both ends)...again for Drive-Ins. But this example was just a 150mm...not exactly pushing the envelope of anything.

If my slamming discouraged the sort of posts I saw...good. Those sort of posts, in my opinion, don't help, they mislead. I don't do it that often but if one posts something that just blatantly wrong, I have no problem calling them on it. on things they really do not know anything about or feel the need to empty their entire knowledge base on a post in the hopes that some of it, accurate or not, may help.

Reverse anamorphics suffer from uneven light and barrel distortion. They have but one purpose, to get very long EFs where the lenses designed for normal anamorphics fail. That is, in a 70.6mm OD lens, anything over 140mm will be slower (less light efficient). In the example Scott provided (150mm versus a 75w/reverse), the light loss would be negligible on the 150mm compared to the image distortion and lack of uniform light that the reverse would bring. The posters prior to me seemed to miss all of that. There is no way they have ever run target film or measured the light to come up with their
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 02-14-2012, 09:10 PM:
 
^^^^ WTF? Methinks Steve-o has been lifting a few too many before posting that.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-15-2012, 12:15 AM:
 
I dunno...it sure looks like a cut-n-paste gone bad. I don't know where the cut and paste would have come from...something musta gone wacky when it posted.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-15-2012, 12:33 AM:
 

quote: Sam D. Chavez

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You are occasionally wrong you know.

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Sam, I'm going to have to stand behind Steve here. Out of everyone in this industry I think Steve has the highest percentage of "correct to incorrect" on virtually every aspect of film and digital projection. In fact I've only EVER known Steve to be "wrong" about one thing ever...platters.

Brad
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-15-2012, 08:35 AM:
 
Brad that is one thing steve is definetly right about platters are
As for driving on the wrong side what about the FP16 and the hortson
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-15-2012, 10:01 AM:
 
LOL - Steve!! You're playing Reel-One again!!!!
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 02-15-2012, 10:38 AM:
 
I agree that Steve's batting average is the best there is around these parts. This is what makes it remarkable (and fun) when he is wrong. That and the attitude of course.

Unless Steve wants to write a paper offering a convincing explanation of why driving on the left side of the road is "wrong", I'll stick with my objection. China and India are booming and at some point in the future a majority of the cars in the world may be driving on the left side.

In the end it was all in good fun from my point of view.

Also, I've been bickering with Guttag since he was a child.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-15-2012, 11:09 AM:
 
I would hope that my comments about the wrong side of the road and accents would have been taken in humor. After all...who DOESN'T speak with an accent? Take the USA...a person that grew up in Boston, one that grew up in Maryland, one in Tennessee, California...etc...have them all read the same sentence and you'll get different pronunciations to the point that the differences are every bit as great as USA/Canada or USA/England...etc. And there isn't an English accent (singular...just like in any country, there are variants). Hence the silliness of referring to a form of English as sounding funny...which form?

I will stand behind that positive ground is wrong because the biggest purveyor of it is Lucas "Prince of Darkness" Electric...if it was so good, it wouldn't fail so often.

As to driving on a particular side of the road...This is a case where the WORLD would benefit by picking just one standard...then there would not need to be two different types of the SAME vehicle depending on which country it goes to. Naturally, which ever one you are used to will make you feel awkward driving the "other way." What is one of film's sterling qualities? That despite the US and other countries being on the "English System" the 16mm, 35mm and 70mm formats prevailed EVERYWHERE so that a film shot most anywhere could be played most everywhere.

-Steve
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-15-2012, 12:45 PM:
 
Good to see Steve didn't try and pretend he was right on the platter thing. He's learning!

Regarding driving on the right side of the road, I agree with Sam there isn't a correct or incorrect side of the road to drive on, but I will back Steve in saying it is pretty foolish to drive on the LEFT side of the road.

Imagine 2 drivers each headed toward each other. In America as they approach each other where often their only dividing line is those yellow marks on the road, if one of them isn't exactly saying in their lane it is easier for the other to judge to scoot over a little bit to avoid a head on collision. Many people think their car is smaller than it really is. We have all seen this by watching people drive by centering THEM on the lane, not the car. As such in other parts of the world, head on collisions by definition (perhaps not actuality) are more probable when the driver is further away from the collision point.

Its similar to the toilet paper argument. Sure the toilet paper WILL unroll in either direction, but when you are sitting on the can...particularly how most idiots like to install the tp dispenser really close to the ground, you are leaning over and fumbling with your hand upside down reaching around the back side of the roll trying to find the beginning of the tp. Besides this being just annoying, it is also unsanitary, as everyone ELSE is doing the same thing. Do you really want your hand bumping up into the wall behind the tp that ever other person doing their business bumped their hand into? Of course not. That is why people who don't load the tp so it unrolls OVER the top of the roll so the tp hangs a good 4-6 inches away from the wall is "doing it wrong".

Come to think of it, so are those crazy people who drive on the wrong side of the road.

Its just logic people. Steve IS right!
 

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Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 02-15-2012, 12:56 PM:
 
Brad...
Places that drive on the left have cars with the driver sitting on the right.
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 02-15-2012, 01:05 PM:
 
If logic were the answer, the world would be a simple place. If logic ruled, we would not need lawyers or even laws. All humans always behave logically right?

If you stretch this out to the breaking point, it's kind of like the Lennon song "Imagine". "Imagine there's no country, and no religion too", etc.

It's been my experience that women usually do the toilet paper thing so it feeds from the back side, while men do it the other way. No idea why.

But now we've really digressed.

Bravo Dave! Goes to show you how much some people don't get out past our US border.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-15-2012, 01:13 PM:
 

quote: Dave Macaulay

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Places that drive on the left have cars with the driver sitting on the right.

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As Paul Rodrigues, the used car salesman in "The World's Fastest Indian", said to Anthony Hopkins:

No matter what country you are driving in, the driver always sits closest to the center of the road.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 02-15-2012, 01:37 PM:
 
Amazing how we went from amplifiers to driving positions.

In that same spirit, I find it annoying that there is no standard for which side of the rear panel the input, output and power connections are placed.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 02-15-2012, 03:28 PM:
 
It took a few days to get used to the "wrong side of the road" but eventually it's just the other way round. As Dave pointed out our cars have the steering wheel on the right.
My personal car, though, is a Left Hand Drive (I have it here in the UK) and in that case I second Brad: you're far from the center line and it's harder to judge the distance. But eventually you get used to it anyway. It's kind of funny to swap seat every now and then!
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-15-2012, 03:31 PM:
 
Tony, did you miss the toilet paper digression?
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-15-2012, 03:38 PM:
 
I would say the oddest thing would be manual shift...most folks are righties which means in RH-Drive countries you are shifting with your off-hand. Again, something that one would get used to but still...I wonder if they have done a study to see if one is more accurate shifting with their off-hand or strong hand (accurate meaning, hitting your shifts without fumbling around and are able to accelerate as quickly). It is odd about how these strong-hand things work...in a guitar, it is your weak-hand that does all of the tricky fingering.

I still say, the world would be a better place we all drove on the same side of the road (going the same direction) rather than having it split for primarily tradition. The only exception I'll allow is for postal trucks, while they last. It is the only time where the driver is deliberately near the curb side of the vehicle, for obvious reasons.

I think in some parts of the world, your car has to be identified as "Left-Hand Drive" (or Right hand, respectively) so other drivers know you are on the other side. I dunno why but Australia comes to mind that might require or suggest that. (they drive on the wrong side because they are upside down...so I'll allow it.)
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 02-15-2012, 05:46 PM:
 
There are all sort of places driving from the UK to Europe and back where you need to do the switch from left to right side driving.

I believe Sweden made the switch from left to right. Japan tried it years back and gave up after only a week if I remember.

There are lot of European race drivers that don't seem to suffer from driving here or there and eating our lunch in the bargain.

Language too. I've sat at cafe's and overheard a whole table of diners speaking three languages to each other and switching up practically mid-sentence.

We're pretty sheltered here.
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 02-15-2012, 07:21 PM:
 
"A" roll and "B" roll toilet paper?
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-15-2012, 07:52 PM:
 
Louis--that's hilarious. (As is this entire thread, actually. Except for the parts about people having trouble with equipment, of course.)
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 02-15-2012, 08:14 PM:
 
We are in the entertainment business, no?

This has been fun.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-15-2012, 09:09 PM:
 

quote: Dave Macaulay

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Places that drive on the left have cars with the driver sitting on the right.

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quote: Brad Miller

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I've never seen ANY toilet paper roll come wound "emulsion" in. The slightly softer side is always out.

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Only when you're talking about two-ply.

However, I've never seen any T.P. that was shipped on reels. Always on cores only. But, it does occasionally get shipped on 6,000 foot rolls. This is always in the commercial/institutional setting. Home/consumer use always ships on the shorter 2,000 foot rolls.
 

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Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 02-16-2012, 08:28 AM:
 
Well, now we know what use we can put all of those platters being junked for digital
 

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Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 02-16-2012, 10:50 PM:
 

quote: Randy Stankey

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But, it does occasionally get shipped on 6,000 foot rolls. This is always in the commercial/institutional setting.

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quote: Manny Knowles

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Tony, did you miss the toilet paper digression?

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I chose to let that one roll out on it's own.

Randy: So the new craptastic amp is noisy already? Loose neutral my friend, solution to your problems. I like your idea of letting it make noise, hopefully it will catch fire or blow out some speakers too.

I feel for you in your situation.....I would have either gone postal or killed someone by now.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-08-2012, 10:25 AM:
 
Well, I can't work there forever. When I don't work there anymore, hopefully some time soon, I won't be there to do things like diagnose and fix bad amplifiers.

So, if I wasn't there, that amplifier would have been left to its own devices. It would go up in smoke, blow out the speaker or both.

Looking at it realistically, it doesn't matter whether I'm there to stop it or not. Does it?
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-08-2012, 02:33 PM:
 
And that's the saddest part of this whole saga......

Last time I had a job where they didn't give a shit about any efforts to help them or save them money, I quit and started my own company.

With your experience perhaps that is something you should look into.
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 03-09-2012, 06:40 AM:
 
Good point! I was once told "that I had outclassed my customer base!" If so this is a dangerous condition, since you care more than the people who should care, the owners (managers.)

Indeed, I had a log of everything wrong at every booth I serviced that they would not let me repair! Louis
 

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