This is topic Qestion: What are the best projection lenses, the TOP in Razor Focus ? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Martin Daian (Member # 1779) on 02-09-2011, 11:04 PM:
Hello Everybody, i try to define what are the best 35mm projection lenses, i made some tests with various different lenses but still can't define what is the best.
SCHNEIDER SUPER CINELUX
ISCO ULTRA STAR HD PLUS
I made a test with a Schneider Cinelux, not Super Cinelux focal size 35mm and give excellent luminous and the focus are good in all the corners of the screen, after use a ISCO MC 35mm focal and gives less light on the screen but the focus looks better than the Schneider, more picture details, i allways think that Schneider was the best in quality but after this comparation see that Isco MC have more razor picture images than Schneider but with less light on the screen that Schneider, i still not test the Isco Ultra Star HD or the red HD PLUS, also know that Blue Isco or Green Isco are on the market.
I like to have the most sharpness picture on the screen, not problem if gives less light i will use more current on the xenon lamp to equiparate the light difference.
I Allways prefer less light that less shrpness razor picture.
Also note that Isco MC have more elemtns that Schneider, this will be the cause of more definition and less light, i assume.
Experiences welcome!
Thanks,
Martin Daian
Posted by Ed Mauger (Member # 4813) on 02-10-2011, 01:05 PM:
Hi Martin,
Schneider "Cinelux Premiere". They have built-in irises, which will give you greater depth of field, and better illumination uniformity. They're stunningly good, but will cost you lots of money!
Otherwise, how about the Isco red ones, but add a fixed aperture - f2.7. Almost as good, but a fraction of the price.
Ed.
Posted by Martin Daian (Member # 1779) on 02-16-2011, 10:48 PM:
Hello Ed, i am looking for the best lenses, Thank you for your information, i have a long throw Theater with 140 feet projection distance and need a Flat 75mm lenses and Scope 150mm lenses, i have bottom masking curtains, i have two 150mm Isco lenses for the scope and know that the Premier series from Schenider not makes 150mm focal lenghts, i assume that in that size will have very good projection quality in scope, for Flat i will find the Premier lenses or the Isco Ultra Star Plus HD the red ones, i don't know if Isco made 150mm red lenses,
Thank you again for everything,
Martin Daian
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-17-2011, 08:36 AM:
If resolution is your main goal, the ISCO Ultra-Star Plus are the best...and will out project the Cinelux-Premiere. I've done the tests (with Schneider present) on the same projector, same test film same screen...only change...the lens. The Schneider had to be stopped down to f/2 to start to match the ISCO's resolution but at that point, the ISCO was notably brighter. Once the Premiere's iris stops below f/4, it gets the black-hole effect (Darker center than corners).
Schneider tends to have a more contrasty looking picture but I think it is at the expense of resolution. I guess, if there is less to resolve one can make a greater difference between what is lit and what is not. Schneider also tends to have a bluer picture (higher color Temp)...I've also done that test with a light meter and compared several ISCO reds to Schneider...ISCO tended to not affect the light much or slightly lowered color temp...Schneider consistently raised it.
-Steve
Posted by Martin Daian (Member # 1779) on 02-17-2011, 10:21 PM:
Hello Steve, Thank you very much for your recommendation, i suposs that Isco HD PLUS are the best, now i only have Isco Ultra Star HD but not have the red PLUS lenses, i will use the HD lenses until get HD PLUS lenses,
Thank you,
Martin Daian
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-17-2011, 10:26 PM:
Then you get into perceived sharpness, of which contrast greatly helps with. After all, we aren't watching test patterns, we are watching movies.
There is no easy answer Martin. Schneider looks far better and sharper to my eyes. Either Schneider OR ISCO will produce great images.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-18-2011, 06:41 AM:
The problem is Brad...the test pattern shows all of the detail the Schneider lenses throw away. It is true, that if I remove detail and have very distinct lines...they look sharp...but you are looking at a lesser picture.
-Steve
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-18-2011, 02:04 PM:
Yes, but you are also assuming Martin's projector is as good as the projector you are using as a reference. The slightest stability issue or unnecessary heat coming from the lamphouse will kill that resolution before the lens even gets a chance.
Couple that with the perceived resolution of human eyes and there is not an easy answer. I prefer Schneider because I don't like the pale images that I see from ISCO. I would rather sacrifice a hint of resolution to get a picture with more bite.
It all boils down to personal preference once we are talking about lensing of such high quality. Either will produce a great image. We are just being overly nitpicky.
Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 02-18-2011, 02:20 PM:
Like Brad I prefer Schneider for much the same reasons. The problem with test patterns is just that, they are test patterns but when you get to the movie you have a new set of criteria that has been interjected, the intent of the filmmaker, the technique used by the camera man, the lab that produced either the digital print or film print.
As to me I would like to know how to get rid of the yellow tint on CSI: Miami that is really, really irritating to me.
I guess lenses are like cars you might like a new Rolls Royce where I would prefer a 1974 red firebird formula 400 with a 4 speed hearst shifter 400 CC and 400 horse power NICE!
Well that’s just me I guess!
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 02-18-2011, 02:56 PM:
I use both and lean towards the ISCO Ultra star HD for flat but i also love the brighter, warmer Schneider! Wish i could get both in one lens!
On scope I use a Ultra star HD anamorphic in front of a older Ultra MC 110mm Isco prime!
Love that anamorphic but i wish i could get the blue one!
I also wish Ultra star HD came in 110mm! ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-18-2011, 05:32 PM:
If you want to see what is actually on the film...what the film maker actually saw...the ISCO is going to do that more faithfully. I've had a lab reject a Schneider lens on me because it altered the picture too much and could not use it for QC.
If you don't see contrast with an ISCO, then it wasn't on the film to begin with. Some of the highest contrast ratios ever measured in a theatre (AMPAS) were on the ISCO red lenses.
Also, the ISCO red lenses are more tolerant of film flutter too. The Schneider SCs are less so and very fussy about being perfectly aligned.
-Steve
Posted by Martin Daian (Member # 1779) on 02-18-2011, 07:59 PM:
Hello, i have made this test: using a Schneider Cinelux 35mm focal and a Isco MC 35mm focal, the Isco looks like have more elements inside, too much weight than Schneider Cinelux, after the test made this conclusion, Schneider have too much light and contrast on the screen with good good focus, Isco MC have too less light but more detailed picture, i also note that Isco have more close diaphragmed rear lens element than Schneider Cinelux , i know that if you diaphragm a lens you will have more depth focus, then gives more picture details n the screen, also i made a test with my eyes, when i close my parpadus to the middle of my eyes i see more detailed images, when i open my eyes completelly i have more light but less detailed, maybe if i raise more light on the Isco lens to compensate the light difference between the Schneider Cinelux maybe the definition will lowered at the point to have the same quality that Schneider's, maybe our eye system when receives more light lower the definition receptivity, we know that our eye system have limited definition also,
I need to made the final test, using the Isco 35mm lens raise the current on the projector lamp to equiparate the same footlamberts in the screen that gives the Schneider Cinelux 35mm lens, after i will see if the problem are on the optics of the Schneider lens or if is a problem on our ocular eye system, if the problem is natural of our eye system Schneider will be better tan Isco that not need too much light like Isco but if Isco at the same footlamberts still give the same focus Isco will be best lens than Schneider, i allways prefer better focus definition that more light.
Also know that the steadyness of the film on the Trap/Gate is very important, a minimal vibration will give little out of focus or smashed picture detail, when have little movement the intermittent will made ainterleacing efect of the film grain and lower the sharpness picture,
Kinoton have the more stable picture, i use Ernemann X projectors, also gives excellent picture stabillity but not have curved Trap/Gate.
Thank you everybody,
Martin
Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 02-18-2011, 08:01 PM:
I gotta agree with Steve here on the principle. You have to start with most accurate.
Pedantic note to Ron. That shifter is Hurst, not Hearst like the newspaper tycoon/yellow journalist.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-19-2011, 07:13 AM:
Martin,
When you use the ISCO RED lens, in particular, you need to reset lamp focus. If it is left in the same position that was optimal for Schneider or even other ISCO lenses, you will not get the maximum through put. If you optimize the lamp focus for both lenses, I think you will find that the ISCO wins the maximum light too (measure with a meter). I have done this test too (though not with every permutation, naturally so there may be a focal length where the Schneider wins but that is not the norm).
-Steve
Posted by Martin Daian (Member # 1779) on 02-19-2011, 03:05 PM:
THANK YOU , i will done all my tests, i want to have the maximum picture quality, most sharpness and most luminous
Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 02-24-2011, 02:18 AM:
I like both Isco and Schneider and their various models. In the real world both will give high quality images especially compared to other brands and older lenses.
Oh and Ron, drop the Firebird back to a '73 and you get a 455. Better still, go back to a '71 Mopar and get a Hemi!
Posted by Martin Daian (Member # 1779) on 02-24-2011, 04:20 PM:
Hi David, Thanks for your opinion,
Martin
Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 10-28-2012, 01:53 PM:
It has been 611 days since the last post.
Posted by Rob J. Buskop (Member # 3338) on 10-28-2012, 01:53 PM:
I have a question for Steve!
Steve, when you compared the Isco HD plus red lens with the Cinelux Premiere, you did'nt mention the the f value (if any)you applied to the Isco lens. Was it the standard f1.8, or rather set to f2.1 or even 2.7 with the diafragm adapters that are supplied with these lenses? Should make a lot of difference in depth of focus and detail.....
Your comments will be enlightening!
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-28-2012, 07:43 PM:
I compared same to same. That is, the ISCO red was set to f/2.1 (standard unless you REMOVE the default ring) and the Schneider was set to f/2.1 via the iris. The Schneider only had the same light when the iris was full-open but the focus became notably worse.
If the Schneider was set very high, it created a bit of a black-hole in the light.
Posted by Simon Wyss (Member # 6218) on 10-30-2012, 10:51 AM:
Hey, Martin
You can have a very sharp picture with a four-element lens such as the Petzval type. Depends on two factors. One, illuminating optics: long focal length mirror of arc lamp. Two, absolute size of the lens: only a central section of the elements used. That way they had stunning pictures in the silent era. If you stick to Xenon arc lamps, the according relatively short focal length mirrors, and too big a screen you are forced to employ a modern lens.
Remember: mirror relative aperture 1:3 goes well with lens relative aperture 1:2. The closer one gets to a lens aperture with mirror aperture the heavier lens flare problems become. Of course do lens manufacturers everything to suppress internal stray light but it is not necessary. 150 mm is very comfortable as focal length, so you may experiment with an old fashioned system, even with a non-treated. I had a beautiful picture from Ideal format slides (cutout 56 x 72 mm) with an Isco triplet, f = 300 mm, and high-intensity carbon arc light. Per un pugno di dollari.
At f = 75 mm, standard sound aperture, a more complex lens is indicated. Again, the slim light hose of a 10" or 12" carbon arc mirror of 30" to 36" focal length outperforms Xenon lamp geometry. The old movies’ glamour has to do with this. Xenon lamps lack the short waves which are characteristic of the old-fashioned arc.
Posted by Rob J. Buskop (Member # 3338) on 10-31-2012, 05:00 PM:
Thanks Steve, for your latest update. Greatly appreciated!
Posted by Rob J. Buskop (Member # 3338) on 02-04-2013, 04:11 PM:
Has any of you made a careful quality comparison between the
Schneider Cinelux Premiere and the Schneider Super Cinelux?
(Assuming the Premiere was set at around f/2 as the fixed f Schneider SC.)
Would like to hear your opinion.
One thing I personally noticed, is that the color temperature on the Premiere lens is a bit warmer than the Schneider SC. Very pleasant actually.
But why would you prefer the one above the other in real terms?
Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 07-10-2013, 07:01 PM:
Is it very difficult to adjust the iris on a Red Isco HD Plus lens?
I just bought a 70mm one for flat very cheap!
I find the picture looks warmer than the Isco HD...looks a tad brighter and sharper in the middle but the far sides want to be closer to the film which then throws the middle out?
Only run a beat up RP40 so far though.
Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-11-2013, 12:38 PM:
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