Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: The care and feeding of semi-retired 35mm equipment

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-16-2011, 11:24 AM:

Since we changed to digital, our 35mm projector has been unused. I have not run any film through it since June 16 of last year. I turn it on for a minute or so every now and then to keep things lubricated, and I've kept the dust off of it....but is there anything else I should or could be doing to make sure it stays in good shape?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-16-2011, 05:51 PM:

Run FILM through it. No, I'm not trying to be funny. If you don't run film...things like the sound drum never get spun up to speed...running it once a month with film is probably sufficient to keep it at the ready. You will likely need to also tend to its lubrication changes as well (not based on hours, anymore, but on age.

-Steve

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 03-16-2011, 06:06 PM:

I second Steve's motion. I would run with the lamp on when you run as it will dry things out and chases away rust etc.

Maybe 30 minutes a month.

Some of my customers who don't have a long history with film tend to forget how to thread everything.

Posted by James Wallor (Member # 6154) on 03-17-2011, 01:40 AM:

Our 35mm has sat unused for I believe a little over a year now. For what it does come time to run it again, other than lubricating everything, do you suspect there may be any issues we may encounter? It's a Simplex PR1014 with a Dolby Cat. No. 701 soundhead up top and a Simplex 5-star soundhead below.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 03-18-2011, 08:38 PM:

The further out you get from the last use the less likely you are to ever use it again. Bust it into carryable pieces with a sledgehammer and dumpster it. At this point it's just clutter in the booth. At this point we're still using 35mm for all out mainstream stuff, almost all the specialty screenings, old stuff, etc. are being done from DVD or Bluray either of which looks better than the hatcheted prints that we always got. I can't imagine needing the 35s ever again after we get on screen with D-Cinema. So far EVERYTHING we've needed including some very old titles have been available on DVD or BD. At some point not too far out we'll put one of the Simplexes on display and dispose of the other.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-19-2011, 10:11 AM:

As film disappears from mainstream theatres it'll become the territory of arthouse venues and places that show mainly archival prints. I suspect that they'll want to show film of all varieties (16, 35 and 70) for many years yet, and looked-after machines 'for spares or repair', to use that infamous Ebay phrase, will become sought after. The same thing has happened among vinyl (and shellac) record geeks. I recently sold a turntable I bought on Ebay on 2004 on Ebay once again, for three times what I paid for it! My guess is that this is because (a) I looked after it and repaired several defects, and (b) less of them survive now than did then, becuase many will have been dumpstered in the intervening six years or so. I think what I'm trying to say is that after an initial slump, good 35mm projector mechanisms of designs that are recognised as being well suited to running older prints will appreciate in value. Even if you never intend to use yours again, if you have the space, then mothballing them carefully and storing for a decade or two and then selling might turn out to be a worthwhile option.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 03-19-2011, 11:27 AM:

Art house venues are where film will totally disappear first because with the very limited demand and ever increasing costs film will become impractical.

Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 03-19-2011, 02:50 PM:

quote: Bill Enos
The further out you get from the last use the less likely you are to ever use it again.

I disagree. In fact, over the past three months I have doubled digital features along side other title film prints over a period of at least three weeks. Once more, notice its plural - meaning its not just the same stale movie being bled white week after week. Aggressive bookers will use all options available to them and I suspect this will be fairly normal given who we are contracted with.

When not in use I take care of the 35mm just like it is still part of the flock. I have heard horror stories from other - more poorly ran multiplexes - about cannibalizing the retired (but still functional) 35mm only to find out the following week it will be required for service. If I had my way I think I would fire those employees for sabotage if this prevented a show.

However, for those other machines that have been entirely removed, we are still devising an official company policy regarding mothballing. For the most part, all machines are thoroughly cleaned and repaired before going into storage. Moreover, all of the fluids are properly drained and the gear side of the machine also cleaned and maintained. If indeed a better part is on these machines that might be swapped elsewhere, then I suppose it would be alright. I have mentioned to some in our company about keeping a log as to what has been swapped out so we at least know the source of the used part and can replace it down the road. The last thing I want sitting around in my booth are piles of junk that were once great machines having the misfortune of falling into the hands of lazy, incompetent people.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-19-2011, 05:20 PM:

quote: Bill Enos
Art house venues are where film will totally disappear first because with the very limited demand and ever increasing costs film will become impractical.

Bill, I think your "radar" is way off on this one. Art/Special venue is where film will stay the longest. In fact, We have a few of "art houses" where the plans for putting in DCinema were just stepped back based on what they are showing and what they are planning to show...what is stepping up in priority is improving the their FILM presentations (going to Kinoton FP30E Premiere projectors and 3-wing shutter mode (flicker-free) and also installing 2nd projectors to open up the archival film market.

While it is true that movies of all ages are available on DVD...DVD quality is so far below that of film that one should be embarrassed to show it. if you think it looks good, you are standing in the booth...get a bit closer. There are good film prints out there of many classic titles and they will knock the socks off of even BluRay. I don't know where you source your films from to know why you only get the junk. Or, perhaps, it is just easier to run the BluRay/DVD since you have a good projector.

-Steve

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 03-19-2011, 07:38 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Bill, I think your "radar" is way off on this one. Art/Special venue is where film will stay the longest. In fact, We have a few of "art houses" where the plans for putting in DCinema were just stepped back based on what they are showing and what they are planning to show.

...and it's the issue of cost to install new digital equipment. It's all well and good all the major chain multiplexes going fully digital over the next year or so, they have the money. It's the smaller independent cinemas that will hang on to their current film based equipment and where film will thrive.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-19-2011, 08:19 PM:

I agree Michael...though on the Art Theatre...depending on the theatre, what it plays and how it is funded...even the money isn't the issue...they have A/V projectors to run the non-DCinema stuff...they just don't think that the DCinema equipment is going to do as much for them as improving/expanding their film equipment...at this time. Mind you...there are definite plans for having DCinema equipment in the future...it is all planned...but if they don't need it to do their current stuff...time shows that it gets better and costs less...the longer you wait.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-20-2011, 10:15 AM:

There are some arthouse venues, and especially cinematheques that are attached to, or have a close relationship with archives (e.g. the Dryden Theater in Rochester, NFT in London etc.), which will want to continue showing film for ideological reasons. Also, there are a great many more obscure archival titles that haven't been digitised. Sure, DCPs of the usual classics - Citizen Kane, Gone With the Wind and about 67 different restorations of Metropolis - will very quickly become readily available. But for a lot of titles that might get a screening once every 10-15 years, showing the 35mm print might still be the cheaper and more efficient option for the foreseeable future. The cost of producing a DCP from preservation elements is coming down, but it's still significant. I agree that we're talking about a tiny minority of overall venues, but my gut feeling is that they will still exist.

Posted by Bernie Anderson Jr (Member # 410) on 03-20-2011, 10:55 AM:

My understanding is that Empire 42nd street in NYC put back a pair of Simplexes for special screenings because it wasn't on DLP for some reason.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 03-20-2011, 03:59 PM:

All the best film equipment can't correct for a print with 145 splices, scratches and 30 cues at the end of every reel which is the way all the last 20 or so old title prints came to us. The customers bitch and complain in a steady stream to the lobby all the way thru the movie. They think WE did all the damage and raise holy hell. It just isn't worth the aggravation. The first thing the studio reps. say when you book older titles is that all the prints are shit----no good ones left. The MPXes don't screen these prints, just art houses which brings up the big question----Is everybody in art house booths totally incompetent or what? I've been in the booth for 25 years and I'll honestly say I've made my share of screw ups but my total list of screw ups is blown away but what I find a on a single print that has been thru the art house circuit. Is there a school that trains morons to work art house booths????? Incompetence that gross is hard to find in any trade.

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 03-20-2011, 06:01 PM:

It is the worst ever for morons in booths but they get what they pay for and they want it done for free!
Around here catalog prints are still quite decent but it's a crap shoot!

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 03-20-2011, 06:02 PM:

Bill pretty well sums up the situation here. We started running "classics" once a month about a year ago. I think we've had 3 35mm prints. I'd love to be an archive affiliated theatre, but it's not going to happen with our current set up.

I was surprised to know there are arthouses running 100% DVD, but I know of at least one and bet there are others.

As long as the industry is not going to make prints available, especially good prints, the public will get DVD/BluRays and most of them don't care.

No point rehashing the thread I started last year about the psyhcology of DVD's, but like it or not the foreseeable future sucks.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-20-2011, 06:29 PM:

quote: Bill Enos
All the best film equipment can't correct for a print with 145 splices, scratches and 30 cues at the end of every reel which is the way all the last 20 or so old title prints came to us.

Thank you. As a die-hard film fanatic myself, in no way would I rather watch a beaten print vs. a DCP.

quote: Bill Enos
The first thing the studio reps. say when you book older titles is that all the prints are shit----no good ones left.

Shit is correct. Remember the depots RANDOMLY grab several prints to keep for the archives, and film handling is at an all time low, meaning the average print kept for repertory use is shit and when repertory prints are sent out to theaters they are shit on due to mishandling. We have tried to book rep titles recently and the distributors will openly admit the prints are bad and "not to complain" and "no they will not be printing any new copies".

Personally I think most blu-rays look bad, but some do look really good (such as Baraka and animated stuff like Pixar). Until the catalog titles get released in DCP, the rep circuit is really taking a beating because you're damned if you run 35mm and you're damned if you run blu-ray. Shit on reels or on disc?

In regards to the "vault prints", HA! Many of those are in awful shape as well. The "no cut" policy is completely ignored by most venues and the ends of the reels have so much shit on them from being handled on 20 minute reels (or built-up) that it's to the point of why do they even bother? [Frown]

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-20-2011, 07:45 PM:

First off, I'm going to start off by saying this:

Digital = Lazy

I have had so many people from people in the mail room and UPS drivers to people in the projection booth all the way up to the stuffed suits in the distributor's offices say to me that it's such a hassle to handle film.

UPS drivers don't want to haul film cans.
Mail room employees don't want to carry film cans and stack them.
Employees don't want to retrieve film from the mail room even when I tell them to use a dolly.
Projectionists don't want to splice films together and break them down again.
I've heard people in the depots tell me that they don't want to track down film prints.
I've had people at distributors tell me that it's too much trouble to book film prints.

Cripes! I've been doing this job for 15 years (a drop in the bucket compared to some theater veterans) and, yes, I have days when I don't feel like carrying crap around but film is the name of the game and if you don't like it you can quit your job!

It is my belief that the main reason film gets beat up is because of this pervasive laziness that permeates the industry. People don't want to do the jobs they are paid to do. They're all a bunch of fucking pansies!

To that end, I think that digital movies have a good side: It lets the lazy people be lazy and those of us who want to do a good job work without idiots fucking up our film.

So, up to a certain extent, I'm willing to let theaters use digital projection so that they'll leave the good film projectors and the good film prints to us.

For the near future, film use will certainly decline in use but, after a certain period of time, I think we'll see a resurgence of film use. The same kind of thing has already happened with vinyl records. It's starting to happen with traditional film photography. I think it's only a matter of time till it happens in the movies.

At that time, people who know how to run film will be at a premium... at least I hope...

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-20-2011, 08:09 PM:

There are clearly different circles of prints out there. That is, I guess there is the general art/rep house circuit that is full of crap prints...and then there are those that have access to "archival" prints and those look wonderful.

I pull a shift now about once a month at the AFI/Silver...and the prints I see there (regardless of vintage) are stunning, by and large. Yes, there are the odd crappy print but they are not the norm. Just this past Saturday I ran a beautiful print of Monkey Business as well as The Leopard (1963)...in fact it was still splice-free...all 11-reels.

As for the no-splice rule...many of the archives require signing off on it...like UCLA's archive...you break the rule...you will NEVER get another print...these places inspect all prints upon return and compare the condition of how it went out and compare it to how it came back...you WILL get called on any changes.

I agree with you Bill...that a print that is so spliced up and scratched to crap is one not worth running.

-Steve

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-20-2011, 09:03 PM:

quote: Randy Stankey
I think we'll see a resurgence of film use. The same kind of thing has already happened with vinyl records.

Randy, that's a totally different thing. If I decided today that I wanted to use vinyl records for my music, I could go get all the vinyl I want in pristine condition, even old music. But if I want to run "The Wizard of Oz" or some other classic on film... well you know.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-20-2011, 09:16 PM:

And future generations who have never seen film will take one look at those worn rep prints and say "you used to watch movies like this??? There are skips and chunks missing and lines in the picture."

I ran a 35mm print for some people a few months back and one person who was there was in his early 20s and did not understand WHY the movie couldn't be paused. (I would not risk scuffing up a section of the film as the sound drum came to a stop and then started back up.) He thought the whole film thing was silly because he can pause movies on his computer, DVD player and even live tv.

It's just like a 70mm festival these days. It ISN'T what 70mm is capable of, but as the prints wear, the demonstration gets worse and worse. [Frown]

Steve, your comparison of the AFI/Silver is one that is simply not typical. That is a very special scenario and won't do anything for the general repertory circuit and even "changeover" repertory theaters. Also it's great that there is a pristine print of Monkey Business, but that is probably the ONLY one, and I'll bet it was a re-strike from maybe a decade ago. All it takes is one mis-thread and a reel of that print will be damaged forever.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-20-2011, 09:20 PM:

The problem with art houses is that they generally have operators who are really good or really terrible, and there is not much middle ground. This may be at least somewhat related to the fact that the pay for operators varies so widely at these types of places. If you look at the pay rates at every theatre in a given town, there is a good chance that the highest and lowest rates both belong to art houses.

By contrast, the multiplexes tend more toward the middle ground, with respect to operators' pay levels and general competence.

I don't have a solution, but this is part of the problem.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-20-2011, 11:55 PM:

Brad,

Don't fool yourself...there are new prints being struck all of the time. I know...I've seen them. Sure there are also the really good older prints. I ran a beautiful print of Godfather II at the AFI...in IB-Tech...so you know that was an old '70s print that has had a good life.

As I said, there are clearly two different circles out there for the Art/rep house...the standard one that gets the crap and the one that has access to the good stuff.

But seriously...if you were an archive...would you sent your print out to an unknown "art" house on the hopes that they will take good care of it? I sure wouldn't Here is a place where a real "THX" like service could do good. Both the theatre AND the operator would need to be "certified" to run archival movies in order to get the good prints. The theatre would need annual inspections to ensure that its equipment wouldn't inherently cause damage and there would be statistics on the operators...just like with a driver's license...too many points and you loose it.

At some level, I honestly don't think some operators or exhibitors even realize that their methods do damage the print. There is also this complete lack of sense that they are handling SOMEONE ELSE'S PROPERTY.

As for pausing in the middle of the show...well, if you had Kinoton Studio projectors...the flywheel would decouple to take care of that [Wink]

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-21-2011, 07:26 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
As I said, there are clearly two different circles out there for the Art/rep house...the standard one that gets the crap and the one that has access to the good stuff.

Apologies for the shameless plug, but on the Projection and Presentation Committee of the Association of Moving Image Archivists (AMIA), we're in the process of trying to put together a web-based resource that enables archives to get a more reliable sense of which venues can be trusted with decent archival prints and are investing the commitment into continuing to do film right, even after most places are no longer doing film at all. At the moment, access to the good stuff is more or less entirely on word of mouth, and long-standing relationships between archives' access officers and individual managers and projectionists. The idea is for theatres to voluntarily put information about themselves on a website to which archives would have access, including pictures of the booth, technical specs, brief bios of the projectionists, details of previous shows etc. When they wanted to book a good archive or studio print, they could say 'Look at our page here - it'll tell you about our setup'. The chances are that the archive probably wouldn't want to make a decision based on that alone, especially if they've never dealt with the venue before, but that it would serve as a starting point and hopefully widen the public's access to good quality screenings of good quality prints in the hands of professionals (or, in rare cases, amateurs who have a track record of achieving professional standards), beyond the word of mouth approach which seems to dictate where the dwindling number of good prints of repetory titles are able to be shown, more or less worldwide, at the moment.

We did think about doing this on an 'approval' basis like THX or ScreenCheck, i.e. AMIA actually checks the place out and gives it a seal of approval: but it quickly became obvious that the legal and logistical issues involved in doing this were way beyond what we're set up to deal with. Things are still in the very early stages as yet, but updates will be forthcoming as progress is made.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 03-21-2011, 10:33 AM:

Leo, I was just going to ask how to become archive certified, and you've kind of answered the question. We hope to do some major rehab and upgrade here in the next few years and to be "Archived Certified" is one of my goals. We'd probably be the only one in Alabama, so it may even be a useful designation for us.

Now if we can only get the industry to create archived certified prints for all of us to use...

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 03-21-2011, 10:59 AM:

I've run 3 UCLA owned prints and all 3 needed work when they came in. Scratches abounded and one had several splices taped on one side only. They were somewhat better than what could have been had from regular sources but certainly a disappointment. On a screening of Phantom of the Opera we did from BD I got a couple emails saying how good our scratch free print was.