Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: What are you wearing...when you change Xenon lamps.

This is topic What are you wearing...when you change Xenon lamps. in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 06-16-2011, 12:18 PM:

I used to have a nice Kevlar jacket with the sexy groin protection area. I sold it when I moved back to L.A. for film school. Now I need another one, but I don't remember the manufacturer's name.

So...

For those of you who actually have lamp safety gear...

"What are you wearing?"

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-16-2011, 12:39 PM:

Just a heavy Carhartt hunting jacket is all I wear.

It's made of heavy briar proof canvas and it comes down just past the waist. It's as good as any apron and it's something I already own so, for the number of times I would use a vest protector, it's a lot more cost effective.

Of course, I use a face shield but that's standard equipment for the booth.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-16-2011, 01:30 PM:

Too bad Phil Hill isn't still here he would have some fun with this one [Big Grin]

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 06-16-2011, 02:43 PM:

Yeah, right? Hubba Hubba!

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 06-16-2011, 02:50 PM:

A grubby looking heavy leather jacket that a customer abandoned years ago, face shield & leather gloves.

Somebody needs to be appointed official Phil Hill commentary sub.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-16-2011, 03:18 PM:

I wish I had sexy groin protection.

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 06-16-2011, 03:20 PM:

Faceshield...And nothing else.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 06-16-2011, 03:24 PM:

Nothing else?

In the immortal words of Wayne, "SCHWING!"

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 06-16-2011, 04:29 PM:

My sexy groin is protected by an old but heavy leather welding jacket and the 'not so sexy' facial area by a lexan face shield.

I've seen too many of these things go off to not wear FULL protection.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 06-16-2011, 04:38 PM:

My Kevlar jacket is from Steel Grip. I got this ages ago.

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 06-16-2011, 05:39 PM:

To be truthful I do the standard apron and face shield. I chose not to use the gloves because I always feel like I'll drop the darn thing.
In 11 years around the business I've never had a lamp blow up after during anything less than intentional destruction.
Of course it's never wise to push your luck. A very health respect is in order but I think if it survives shipping it ought to be okay.
The durability of modern lamps is very reassuring.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 06-17-2011, 10:27 AM:

No safety gear. Do as I say, NOT as I do.

Otherwise:

(fill in Phil Hill impression here) Louis

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-19-2011, 08:45 AM:

Dominic, please wear a protective gear. We all wear seatbelts because of the chance of having an accident. You do not wait until you have an accident to wear them. You'll get used of gloves, like everybody else.

Posted by Tim Horan (Member # 6055) on 06-19-2011, 09:03 PM:

I am with the Carhart team.

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 06-20-2011, 03:39 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
Do as I say, NOT as I do.

Louis, I use that saying all the time. Years ago I had to travel to different Kerasotes theaters and do booth training for the managers and district managers. I would demonstrate a bulb change and show them where the safety gear was, but I didn't wear any. If they ever had a bulb go out, they would cancel the show call me and I would call their nearest ASC tech to go change it. The only times I've worn a face shield is changing a warm bulb or sometimes when I'm handling a 10K. I do however have a container nearby to put the old bulb in as soon as it is taken out. I've always thought "know what your doing and respect the equipment". Never had one blow up in over 25 years. I used to carry welding goggles to look and work on a lit bulb. Again "do as I say not as I do"

Rick

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-21-2011, 02:36 AM:

quote: Richard Hamilton
I used to carry welding goggles to look and work on a lit bulb.

Something that I had to do when I used to work for a flake of a company a good dozen years back. They had old CH-20 consoles with all of the failsafes disabled - switches all removed and the loose wired ends wirenutted to complete the circuit.

Thus, you had to open the door with the bulb lit to do the azmuith and focus since all of the controls for such didn't work when using the allen screwdriver..

..and no safety gear to be found.

The owners didn't even blink an eyelash, or showed any concern for employee safety - you hurt yourself, it was your fault in the first place in not being careful.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-21-2011, 07:31 AM:

There have been many times especially on CFS and ORC consoles and even some of the 15K water cooled one one needs to go inside with it lit

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-06-2012, 02:15 PM:

On a (somewhat) related note: How many of you are using torque wrenches/drivers to install Xenon lamps? What are you using? I wanna know!

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 02-06-2012, 03:22 PM:

I wear shoes when changing bulbs! Always! (Kentucky joke.)Louis

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 02-06-2012, 06:13 PM:

Until I had to install lamps in the Christie CP2210, I would wear a face shield and no more. Most of the ballastic jackets (and especially the gloves) would restrict movement so much I felt the risk of hitting the reflector or dropping the bulb was greater with the gear than without.

With the CP2210 the working space is so tight I wore the full gear set and sweated a lot. (Big thanks to Frank Cox for the pic!)

Posted by Edward Havens (Member # 4715) on 02-06-2012, 10:34 PM:

Nothing.

I have one of my assistants do it. [Big Grin]

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 02-07-2012, 01:10 AM:

With you naked?! [Eek!]

Posted by Kurt Zupin (Member # 2751) on 02-07-2012, 01:58 AM:

When doing the change outs of the 15k water cooled lamps We are in jacket, gloves and face shield. But really if the lamp goes off in my hands the shield ain't stopping shit. But its the thought that really matters.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 02-07-2012, 02:24 PM:

Chris, when Edward posted that I was thinking the same thing. [Eek!]

For those who have never worked on a Christie, that lamphouse is a lot tighter than the pic makes it look. That vented bulkhead on the left forces you to put the bulb in at a very steep angle, the cathode end WILL hit the reflector no matter how careful you are, and if you have big hands like I do it is hard to get your fingers in the rear of the reflector to grab that cathode end to thread it through the hole. And I was using the 1.4k bulb!! (I don't know if the higher wattage bulbs are any longer, but even a few millimeters would make it even harder.)

But that projector really knows how to throw out the light!

Manny:

Never have and never will use or need a torque wrench on a lamp change. I just use the German method of making all connections "gutentight". [Big Grin]

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 02-07-2012, 03:21 PM:

I know it's not kosher, and I do use gloves and eye protection even though I can't see what I'm doing, but I just keep way off to the side with my body out of the way and do it by "feel". So far so good. I suppose if I ever changed one and it didn't work (well, that actually happened once, but it was a dud lamp) I'd have to suit up and take a more conventional approach. Not advocating anything--that's just what I do.

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 5226) on 02-07-2012, 09:40 PM:

Faceshield, leather jacket that also covers your throat and gloves.
In the twelve years of projecting we have had only two lamps that went "BOOM" the lamps were fairly new and were both "Osram" 1600watt and 2000watt "XL" fitted in different projectors.
our... "Boom".... photos

mirror was damaged and needed to be replaced, looking at what that lamp did to the mirror is one "very good reason" not to be working close to lamp thats going without wearing full safety gear. In general most lamps are fine but you dont want to be "sitting duck" if and when that once in a lifetime faulty lamp goes...."BOOM"

not much left of a $800 dollar lamp.
On the safety side you need to cover your neck, all it needs is a piece of glass from an exploding lamp to hit you on your jugular and you are history for this world.

Graham. [Smile]

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 02-07-2012, 10:22 PM:

To paraphrase our dearly departed John Pytlak, "The last thing the projectionist saw before he went blind....was the xenon bulb exploding."

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 02-07-2012, 11:59 PM:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XLdC8QUNWM

AJG

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-08-2012, 04:59 PM:

Okay, thanks for all the input. Since I started this, I guess it's only good manners to provide an update.

I ordered a Welder's jacket (leather) from Grainger, a 3M face shield (ANSI Z87.1 compliant), safety glasses and gloves from local hardware stores. I'm going to try again with the gloves though - I want my wrists completely covered and these aren't doing it for me.

...and BTW if you want the sexy groin protection, I found where my old ballistic jacket came from...

Christie Lamp Safety Kit Part Number 598900-095-XX

Sigh... I wish I'd stumbled onto that link before I bought the welder's jacket!

Torque Wrench - Tohnichi QL25N
Torque Driver - Tohnichi RTD500CN

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 02-08-2012, 05:56 PM:

quote: Manny Knowles
Torque Wrench - Tohnichi QL25N
Torque Driver - Tohnichi RTD500CN

Manny, Manny, Manny, must I repeat myself?

You DO NOT need a torque wrench for ANY reason, any lamphouse!! I speak from over thirty years of tech experience on virtually every lamphouse ever made.

Just make sure your connections are clean and "gutentight" like a German virgin and you will NEVER have an issue.

There are better things to spend money on than a tool that is totally unnecessary for what you are trying to do.

Graham: Not to undermine the importance of your post, but the difference between a bulb that fails while hot/operating is many orders of magnitude greater than a bulb that is cold or being installed. The carnage you showed is very typical of an in-operation failure.

Little known fact: Some lower wattage bulbs operate at a HIGHER cold pressure (500 watt bulbs are especially high pressure) so a cold failure with them is MORE dangerous than that of a higher wattage (say 2k) bulb. I found out the hard way when I had a 500w Osram explode on me during handling..even in the protective cover it shot glass dust everywhere.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-08-2012, 07:08 PM:

Tony i disagree especially on the Barco lamphouse modules the soft material of the stud I have seen many that have been sheared off by overtightening

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-08-2012, 07:09 PM:

Tony, Tony, Tony - I was personally instructed by our projector manufacturers (Sony and Barco) to adhere to their torque specifications. (Evidently, there is also an electrical code 110.3(B) that mandates adherence to manufacturer's specified torque requirements.) It may be overkill, but it's in my nature to heed this kind of instruction.

As my piano instructor used to say: "Practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect."

BTW, if anyone's interested: Those Tohnichi drivers are exactly what Barco has in their training lab.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 02-09-2012, 12:22 PM:

Gordon:

I have not had to work on any Barcos yet, so what I said still applies to virtually ALL film lamphouses. And I didn't say EVERY lamphouse, I said this:

quote: ME
I speak from over thirty years of tech experience on virtually every lamphouse ever made.

There is some room for omissions there. [Smile]

And note that the Christie doesn't have a torque requirement, 'cuz they are smart. [Big Grin]

IMHO, requiring any kind of speciality tool for something as simple as a lamp change is a piss-poor design decision...(remember the security bolts on the Super Lumex lamphouses? 99% of the theatres I serviced replaced those stupid things with regular screws)...and yes I include torque wrenches in that category. Unless the manufacturer is going to provide the torque wrench and fitting with the machine, they are making a dumb mistake. And in the heat of battle with a blown lamp and a full house, do you really think the average bulb change monkey is gonna take the extra time to dig up a torque wrench to tighten the lugs? [Roll Eyes]

All that said, I do concede that like Barco, there are likely D-Cinema lamps that have torque requirements that I have not yet encountered. Still maintain it's a stupid design though.

And Manny, you have my condolences on being stuck with those Four-Letter S-word abortions. [Big Grin]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-09-2012, 01:20 PM:

Also fastening the DMD in chrisities requires a torque driver

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-09-2012, 02:57 PM:

Tony, you know not what you speak.

Liability requires a torque specification. One can not say to merely "tighten" something. If it burns up one may be tempted to say it was not tight enough but there is no proof as to the source of failure at that point.

If you provide a torque specification, it takes the "user" out of the equation. If you, me or a noobie tighten something to the specified torque, then the job quality is identical.

The fact of the matter is that there are differing levels of capability out there. Some have a feel for mechanical things and some do not...even worse, some think they do but don't. A manufacturer has an obligation to provide a torque specification for each such connection. This is particularly true if being outside of the range can cause a failure.

-Steve

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 5226) on 02-09-2012, 03:00 PM:

Hi Tony

When that lamp exploded as shown, the lamp had just been switched off for the night and had run around twelve hours without any problems that day. It had been off for only, at a guess for less than a few minutes when it exploded. The extracter fan is on a timer and the small fan at the rear of the lamphouse was all running. The lamp pressure would still be very high but dropping and I still cant figure out to this day why it blew when it did when at the time was cooling down.

We did have an accident a few years ago, when late at night the projectionist was sorting out the old used lamps, anyway one accidentally hit the deck and exploded. I got a call from the cashier saying the projectionist was at the hospital. He had been wearing a face shield but nothing else and a piece of glass had hit him on the hand. [Eek!]

I came to work the next day and found what was left of the lamp and "blood". [Eek!]

When I cleaned up I found to my surprise two larger bits of glass about 30 feet away. I am not sure of the kind of velocity for them to travel that far, but I am glad I was not in the way of it. When I did catch up with him I told him to go and buy a "Lotto" Million dollar ticket as it must be his "lucky day" as if any of those bits had hit him on the neck it could have been a different story.

Graham. [Smile]

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 02-11-2012, 02:27 PM:

Steve-o: I know of what I speak, for the longest time there were NO torque specifications for connections/lugs on MOST lamphouses.

Now of course with everyone so worried about liability SOME manufacturers are now specifying torque values, which in many cases is a good thing.

The CP-2210 I just installed does NOT specify torque values for the lamp lead or cathode end clamp.

You are 100% correct in that many folks have no mechanical ability or ability to judge torque values. I am NOT one of them. I generally can consistently torque fasteners to the same value without difficulty, and testing with a torque wrench has proven to me that with a few test runs I can get to a SPECIFIC torque value consistently.

That said, if the manufacturer does indeed specify a torque value, it is wise to follow that spec to avoid warranty/liability issues.

Otherwise, with no spec, just make sure the leads are "gutentight".

Graham:

Understand I am not trying to dismiss or undermine your posts and the point you're making, but sir you are talking apples and oranges here. You had an incident with a bulb that was hot and in cooldown mode, whereas we are talking about installing a bulb that is at room temperature, which is a whole different ballgame.

(BTW, the reason your bulb failed when it did has a very simple explanation: the thermal stresses in the bulb found the weak point as it was cooling down, thus causing the boom. Remember that the air is essentially being blown over one end of the bulb, not in an even layer over the entire bulb. Thus you have one end getting cooled off faster than the middle or other end.)

I will be the last person to ever tell anyone that a Xenon bulb is NOT dangerous, even when cold. But, in the total overall "carnage" factor, a cold bulb will cause less damage than a hot or warm one as the pressure rises considerably when it is hot or even warm. (And of course there is the added risk of HOT glass or metal causing burns in addition to cuts and lacerations.)

Bottom line is, cold or not, new or old, when handling a Xenon bulb of any size or type, one should wear the full protective gear. That some of us do not (myself included) means we have assessed and accepted the risks involved.

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 5226) on 02-11-2012, 08:57 PM:

Thanks Tony for the explanation regarding the lamp, even though all the bits "what was left" was sent back to Osram we never did get a report back from them on the "why" that lamp blew.

Graham.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-11-2012, 09:14 PM:

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr
... means we have assessed and accepted the risks involved.

Of all of the hundreds of bulbs that I've changed - from 1Kw to 6Kw bulbs in size - I still sweat and get nervous while doing the change (and some with tonnage of hours on then and seeing devitrification lines in them, which knowing that these things can pop just by looking at them) on knowing that I must have absolutely full respect for one of these units.

A grenade with the pin pulled is what you have in your hands - just don't squeeze the lever...

That one YouTube video that we've all seen with that kid pulling a Osram bulb away from the foam "Philips/LTI" insert and then it popped on them, I always wonder on how would that have popped just being pulled slowly...