Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Being silent in true form in a 16-plex

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Posted by Ralph Martin (Member # 4876) on 07-23-2011, 01:19 PM:

FIRST, A FUNNY TRUE STORY:

So, this young couple walked into Brenden Theaters (our local 16-plex) with puzzled looks on their faces, watching a load of musical instruments being moved into auditorium #16. The young lady just had to ask me as she walked by, “Like…what’s going on here?” Never too busy to help a movie fan, I replied, “We’re loading in the orchestra for a silent movie.” With amazement she asks, “You mean they’re going to play the music for the movie, like… in person?” I nodded. After a pause for what looked like some serious consideration she said, “Wow! Is this like a NEW kind of thing??” I said, "Yes, it's called 3D SOUND!" :-)

NOW MY DILEMMA:

Well, thanks to the help of the many knowledgeable techs here on this forum our high school orchestra is about to perform their 5th silent movie, Harold Lloyd’s SAFETY LAST (1923) this August at Brenden Theaters and the tickets are almost all sold out three weeks before the performances begin. Now I’m forced to make a leap that I was hoping to avoid.

After being assured by Mr. Lloyd’s estate that SAFETY LAST will run fine at 24fps, I am now informed by others – including the film archives at UCLA that the print must be run at variable speeds between 20 and 22fps.

We have discussed ways to slow down a modern film projector on this forum before. I just hope that the Harold Lloyd Trust is right and the print WILL run at 24fps. It’s getting a little too close to the performance dates to start worrying about altering the theater’s projector :-/

Anyone here have any experience with Harold Lloyd’s films?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-23-2011, 01:49 PM:

Check with your tech, but there is a device that hooks up to the wiring for the motor to adjust RPM output so you can run at that lower frame speed.

I think you'll be okey with the standard two wing shutter, but some venues running at this lower speed will put in three wing shutters to eliminate the flicker since the light will drop below 48 pulses when doing lower frame speeds.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 07-23-2011, 01:59 PM:

There are inverters that act as a speed controls to the projector motor. The motor must be of the right type to be controlled by one of these devices. These are used all the time at film festivals.

The Brenden technicians should be able to pull this off and I can help if need be.

Posted by Ralph Martin (Member # 4876) on 07-23-2011, 02:12 PM:

Thank you :-) These are useful ideas this forum actually suggested these things to me last year when I was considering slower silent films. There is a great projectionist that was recommended to me back then (he has a cool secret agent name) who then offered to help. But because i'm running so close to the screening date and I still don't know for certain what the frame rate is for SAFETY LAST i may have to make the unenviable decision to run it at 24fps and take my chances :-/

Sam,

Thanks for your offer to help. I may take you up on it :-)

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-23-2011, 02:19 PM:

I've seen the film shown at 24fps and thought that it looked fine at that frame rate. I don't remember thinking that it looked sped-up.

The potential issue, though, is if you scored and rehearsed with a video copy that was transferred at a lower rate. I don't have any suggestions, other than to try to get the print ASAP and watch at least one reel of it to determine if the speed matches whatever your reference copy is.

The new prints of many of the Lloyd titles (not sure about Safety Last in particular) have SRD digital soundtracks, even though they are printed full-aperture. This may mean that the film was stretch-printed, in which case you will be fine.

Posted by Ralph Martin (Member # 4876) on 07-23-2011, 02:34 PM:

Scott thanks, that's comforting news. And, it's consistent with Mr. Lloyd's estate. Being a music teacher and not a film expert makes me nervous about these things. The kids do a great job every year on these films. I want it to go smoothly for them. We've been preparing for the possibility of a slightly faster run so they should be fine.

They've performed so far Metropolis; Wings; Adventures of prince Achmed and City Lights. And in August 10 and 11 Safety Last.

Wish us luck!! :-)

Ralph

Posted by Paul H. Rayton (Member # 1817) on 07-23-2011, 04:32 PM:

I ran a 35mm print of this film ("Safety Last") back in Feb. in the San Diego Symphony Orchestra's theatre, Copley Symphony Hall in San Diego (nee "Fox Theatre" , San Diego). However, this screening wasn't with the orchestra, it was with their newly-refurbished Robert Morton pipe organ (which sounds terrific, BTW). And, one more aside, the light source for film projection there is carbon arc, so it's a total retro experience, for sure.

At any rate, my notes from the screening said: "Ran at 24fps. COULD be run slower, as action is a bit fast". The theatre installation is actually capable of variable speeds, but they opted to go with the faster rate because, sadly, today's audiences don't exactly have the same ability to appreciate movies with intertitles as they did almost 90 years ago, so, to keep the storyline moving, the faster frame rate was considered acceptable.

It's a judgement call, really. Yes, once upon a time it may have been projected at a slower rate, but on the other hand, if you can do a reasonable approximation of the original screen experience, and not run seriously afoul of today's finicky audience tastes, there's probably no harm done to run it slightly faster.

On the other hand, there are some older films, esp. dramatic ones, that more or less demand slower frame rates, down to as slow as 18fps. "Safety Last" is a comedy, and it doesn't particularly hurt to have it slightly sped up.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-23-2011, 06:03 PM:

As Paul says, determining the speed is basically a judgment call. However, there are a few guidelines.

1 - the speed at which a film was shot in the camera and the speed at which the filmmakers intended it to be projected was not always the same. With slapstick comedies especially, it frequently happened that the filmmaker wanted a slightly higher projection speed than shooting speed in order to make the stunts look more spectacular. I don't know about Safety Last specifically, but there are surviving flyers that were put in the cans of prints of The General sent to theatres stating that it should be run at 24 (or 90 feet per minute - in those days, projection speeds were more commonly expressed in feet per minute than frames per second). I've seen one in the BFI Special Collections library.

2 - a sort of projection speed arms race happened during the '20s. Theatres wanted to increase speeds for two reasons. Firstly there was the phenomenon of so-called 'picture racing', which you'll find multiple references to in the trade papers of the time. Basically, in the case of longer films, theatres would run them faster to squeeze an extra show into the day. Secondly, as the '20s progressed and the bigger picture palace theatres started to be built, two-blade shutters started to be used in theatres to maximise light output. A two-blade shutter needs a higher speed to eliminate visible flicker. The studios responded to this trend by increasing shooting speeds. The main reason why 24fps was adopted as the sound standard is essentially because it had become a de facto standard projection speed by the late '20s anyway. By 1925-26, studios were working on the assumption that theatres would project at 24, and if they shot at a lower speed if was usually for a specific reason and with the intention that the footage should be projected faster.

3 - This rule of thumb applies a lot less to European films. In particular, most German and USSR silents were shot at 16-18 and intended to be projected at that speed right up until the conversion to sound. From the early 1920s onwards, 18-20 in France and 20-22 for Britain is a usually accurate rule of thumb.

quote: Paul Rayton
I ran a 35mm print of this film ("Safety Last") back in Feb. in the San Diego Symphony Orchestra's theatre, Copley Symphony Hall in San Diego (nee "Fox Theatre" , San Diego). However, this screening wasn't with the orchestra, it was with their newly-refurbished Robert Morton pipe organ (which sounds terrific, BTW).

Have there ever been any open-air silent screenings with the organ in Balboa Park? That would certainly be worth a trip!

Posted by Ralph Martin (Member # 4876) on 07-23-2011, 07:26 PM:

Thank you, Thank you,

I'm going to take a deep breath and try not to worry about the film speed for Safety Last. If the print I am getting has an included digital soundtrack it is obviously either "stretch printed", as Scott suggested, or is just accepted to run at 24fps as suggested by the others here.

Next year I was considering Sunrise (1927) which is a wonderful film but some holders of the print insist that it was meant to be played at variable speeds throughout the screening. I don't get it --- Sunrise was released in 1927 with its score on an optical soundtrack. could you imagine what the soundtrack would have sounded like in 1927 if the projectionist kept changing the speed during the movie??? It had to be a constant 24fps. Or is there something I 'm just not getting about the speed thing?

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-24-2011, 08:08 AM:

quote: Ralph Martin
If the print I am getting has an included digital soundtrack it is obviously either "stretch printed", as Scott suggested, or is just accepted to run at 24fps as suggested by the others here.

I did see a modification to the Dolby digital system demonstrated at an AMIA conference a few years ago, whereby the number of channels encoded was reduced to 2.0 (i.e. the volume of data that had to be captured each second was reduced) in order to enable lower speed running. They demonstrated it with a Chaplin short from the early teens and it seemed to work fine. My memory is hazy, but if I remember correctly the only modification needed in the theatre (apart from a variable speed motor and three-blade shutter on the projectors, obviously) was a new firmware version in the CP. One very clever feature was that the correct projection speed was encoded into the Dolby data blocks, so that as soon as the first block was read a signal was sent to the inverter supplying power to the projector's motor, which automatically set the 'correct' (as in, what the archivists who restored the film believe is correct) speed. The projectionist just had to lace up and run, exactly as he or she would with a normal sound print. I don't know if this ever progressed beyond the experimental stage. I liked the idea of it, because with the audio data between the perfs you don't need to optically reduce the silent frame from full-gate to Academy, and so to release a film this way all you need to do is to print from an existing full-gate preservation negative and a new Dolby digital optical sound negative.

quote: Ralph Martin
I don't get it --- Sunrise was released in 1927 with its score on an optical soundtrack. could you imagine what the soundtrack would have sounded like in 1927 if the projectionist kept changing the speed during the movie??? It had to be a constant 24fps. Or is there something I 'm just not getting about the speed thing?

You've got it right - Sunrise runs at 24. The only early sound issues to watch out for are De Forest Phonofilms (80 ft/min or about 21.5fps) and a very few very early RCA Photophones (85ft/min or 22fps). Fox Movietone and Warners' Vitaphone were 24 from the beginning and always.

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 07-24-2011, 10:07 AM:

quote: Ralph Martin
If the print I am getting has an included digital soundtrack it is obviously either "stretch printed", as Scott suggested, or is just accepted to run at 24fps as suggested by the others here.

Could it be worthwhile to contact whoever is supplying the print so that question is resolved ahead of time - might give you more peace of mind?

Also, if this is an annual event, how about having the projector in that particular house modified to do variable speed presentations? Sam has already very kindly offered his help as you've noted - now there's an offer you can't turn down!

Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 07-25-2011, 07:23 PM:

Ralph, does the screen where the performance will be have a changeover pair of projectors or is the print allowed to be plattered? When I read about a classic title being shown in 35mm I assume it is an archive print made available under the restriction that it cannot be cut and must be run reel-to-reel.

Posted by Ralph Martin (Member # 4876) on 07-26-2011, 10:40 AM:

Jon,

This is a standard 16-plex facility with platter systems. Fortunately we have always been able to platter the print with the blessing of the print holder. These are never archival prints but one of multiple prints that were struck for wider distribution.

I always make it clear to the holder that we will platter the print. Invariably they say, "That's fine, I have a print that I'm sure was plattered before without my permission. I can send that one to you."

Every company I've dealt with over the years has been extremely nice and helpful and more than willing to share their films with a new generation of young enthusiasts - even setting aside a print as the "okay for plattering print." :-)

Posted by Ralph Martin (Member # 4876) on 07-28-2011, 08:36 PM:

Well, I just received the 35mm print for "Safety Last" today and it is full frame with a Dolby Digital soundtrack. I guess that means 24fps.

Of course, we're not using the sound, but I suspect the speed issue has been laid to rest for this year.

Thanks again to everyone for your generous help. The good folks at at this forum have been instrumental in making our school's silent film presentations a highlight in out city!

Best wishes,

Ralph

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-30-2011, 06:58 AM:

Glad it went well.

On the platter issue, some of the larger archives do have two circulating prints of their more frequently requested titles, one of which they will basically send anywhere and the other of which they will restrict to changeover houses. This often happens if they have an existing print and then carry out major restoration work on a title which results in a new print: in such cases they will then be more flexible on where the earlier version can go.

There is another potential workaround, which is to make a print up onto a platter, but leave the heads and tails in place, dousing the picture (and muting the sound if applicable) as they run through. I've done this in organising screenings at a number of conferences and temporary venues when the one projector and platter system is the only option and the archive refuses to allow the heads and tails to be cut. If you explain to the audience in advance that there'll be a 30-second or so break every 20 minutes 'because of technical issues in showing very old and rare material' (or some such wording), they will usually understand very well; and besides, in that situation, many of the audience will know why anyway. The one thing to watch is that you either need to ensure that the ends are spliced in rack or make an adjustment looking at the gate as the incoming leader runs down.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 07-30-2011, 08:35 AM:

I liked Brad's idea of doing plattered changeovers by having two platters, one with odd reels and the other with the even ones with a cue to have the projector run-down to the appropriate spot for the next reel then wait for a changeover cue from the other projector.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-30-2011, 08:57 AM:

But that doesn't solve the need for having two projectors, _and_ it requires having two platters, _and_ it requires extra time for makeup and breakdown. The only advantage that it really provides over reels is provide constant feed and takeup tension.

I have worked in a couple of places that had two projectors and a platter that could feed either projector (this is my favorite booth setup), but have never seen a theatre with two machines and two platters for one screen.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-30-2011, 12:09 PM:

First, it's great to see Leo has done the "uncut leaders on a platter with mini intermissions" routine. With the exception of the mini intermissions, there is nothing wrong with that practice. The only thing I would disagree on is in making sure the reels are in-frame. Some projectors if the loops are too large or small will start scratching, so if the projector's framing has to be racked to adjust on the fly for an out of frame splice, suddenly they could start scratching.

Believe it or not, Joe and I used to perfectly frame and then lock the framing knobs down at theaters we worked for this reason (as well as forcing people to thread in frame). I never got burned on it and I'm sure Joe never did either. Every presentation was however, perfectly framed regardless of whoever last ran the booth. [Cool]

I have automated changeovers with uncut leaders setup in my screening room. The odd reels go on one 6K, the even reels go on the other 6K. The projectors stop and slowly advance themselves down to the starting frame of the next reel while the other one is running. This is the one time where solid yellow tape is acceptable, as it is only used to join the heads and tails together.

If however there was the need for running the movies over and over without cutting the leaders, I would absolutely setup 2 platters for it. The rewinding action of reels puts more stress on the film than a gentle platter payout. Running shows repeatedly isn't however anything that happens in my screening room, so reels are better for those 1 or 2 runs.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-30-2011, 02:48 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
Some projectors if the loops are too large or small will start scratching, so if the projector's framing has to be racked to adjust on the fly for an out of frame splice, suddenly they could start scratching.

Point taken, and this was something I kept in mind the last time I did such a show. The projector was an FP-20, on which there is lots of space at the top of the gate (so no issue there), but if the intermittent loop gets too big, you are in danger of the film hitting the shutter casing. My problem was that the booth was poorly lit and there was no synchroniser or any way of verifying that the end of the tail spacing and start of the head spacing were spliced in rack, except counting down four-perforation blocks with thumb and fingernail over the 30-40 feet or so from the last printed frame line to the end of the roll. So I made the decision to splice without checking, rack on the fly, and if the intermittent loop got too big after the adjustment, to stop the projector and adjust the lacing on the incoming leader to bring the frame back into rack. But I agree completely that, except on some projectors that are basically idiot proof (e.g. the Cinemeccanica Vic 5 with a straight gate, which, if you lace in rack with the racking handle about halfway along its travel, it's physically impossible to make either loop big enough for the film to hit anything, even if you turn the handle to either end of its travel, which is about a frame in each direction), this is absolutely something you need to watch out for.

Agreed too about rewinding, and that's why I don't like motorised rewinders. Winding a 2k reel is not just gruntwork, but you need even pressure and consistency to ensure a good, safe wind. If you're supplying the power from your own body, you're in complete control of it! Spools with bent and/or sharp edges are another potential danger area running a changeover show, too.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-30-2011, 05:22 PM:

And if you use Kinoton electronic frictions...any advantage a platter had on tension is completely negated plus one no longer stresses each edge differently as it goes over platter rollers or is built up on the platter/torn down...etc.

As for hand winding...I've seen far worse winding jobs with hand cranks than with motors...it all depends on the person and in the case of motors...the design of the table as to the evenness of the wind.

-Steve

Posted by Gordon Bachlund (Member # 124) on 08-04-2011, 12:28 PM:

The current issue of the BKSTS magazine CINEMA TECHNOLOGY has a great article on silent screenings.

Visit http://www.cinematechnologymagazine.com/read_emag.htmlit and register (free) to read the e-edition. Then go to pages 62 – 66 to read the article. Also see page 76 for a companion piece on screening THE GENERAL.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-05-2011, 08:21 AM:

The correct link to that site is: http://www.cinematechnologymagazine.com/read_emag.html

BUT it requires a registration, and when you click their link to a "new user form," it returns a 404 - bad link, so you are stuck in the water.

Posted by Gordon Bachlund (Member # 124) on 08-05-2011, 11:14 AM:

As a BKSTS member I read the hard copy of the magazine.

I am sorry that the link I posted contained an error. I am further sorry that the link to free registration failed for you, Frank. I can only say that it worked for me before I posted it. [uhoh]

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 08-05-2011, 01:03 PM:

Gordon, you had a couple of stray letters on the end of your likn.
Frank, I just went to the issue: http://emag.cinematechnologymagazine.com/index.aspx?issue=issue14
and then when you click on a page to read it you get taken to the registration desk.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-07-2011, 05:33 AM:

quote: Scott Norwood
I have worked in a couple of places that had two projectors and a platter that could feed either projector (this is my favorite booth setup), but have never seen a theatre with two machines and two platters for one screen.

The main screen at the Empire Leicester Square used to have two DP-70s and one FP-30D (originally three DP-70) plus two platters. One of the remaining DP-70s was replaced by a digital, and I'm not sure what they've got there now; it's many years since I've been up in the box there.

quote: Leo Enticknap
On the platter issue, some of the larger archives do have two circulating prints of their more frequently requested titles, one of which they will basically send anywhere and the other of which they will restrict to changeover houses.

There's no point in that if you're going to let the print out to any old changeover house, which may, or may not, handle it properly. It would make sense to only allow rare pints out to venues with a proven reputation for not damaging film.

I've seen all sorts of requests for how a print should be run, including 'where possible, continuously and without changeovers', and also, strangely, prohibition of platters, but ok to use long run spools, and towers.

quote:
Believe it or not, Joe and I used to perfectly frame and then lock the framing knobs down at theaters we worked for this reason (as well as forcing people to thread in frame). I never got burned on it and I'm sure Joe never did either. Every presentation was however, perfectly framed regardless of whoever last ran the booth. [Cool]

I've had the odd print, or more often just the odd reel, printed mis-framed, but much more common was badly printed subtitles. If it was a 1.85 film then using a 1.66 plate and racking up a bit would often give acceptable results, but on a few really bad ones I've had to adjust the framing several times during a reel.

You can't get another print, even if a better one exists, when the one you've got has been flown in especially for that screening, is the only one in the country, and arrives five or ten minutes before the show. I've had that several times. Something which probably won't happen with 'mainstream' programming, but often does with festivals etc. I wouldn't want to move the framing during a show if I could help it, but I wouldn't want to lose the ability to do so when necessary.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-07-2011, 11:31 AM:

quote: Leo Enticknap
On the platter issue, some of the larger archives do have two circulating prints of their more frequently requested titles, one of which they will basically send anywhere and the other of which they will restrict to changeover houses.

quote: Stephen Furley
There's no point in that if you're going to let the print out to any old changeover house, which may, or may not, handle it properly. It would make sense to only allow rare pints out to venues with a proven reputation for not damaging film.

Wow, finally someone else "gets it". The attitude has always been "oooooh, platters damage film and if it is ran reel to reel it is perfect!" Such bullshit.

On the locked framing knobs, it is relatively easy to pop the back cover off and loosen the framing, but it was too much trouble for the lazy operators to thread out of frame and do it, hence why it worked so well. (It was also exclusively first run. I absolutely understand where you are coming from with festivals and independent films.)