Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: AW3 Payout Uneven

This is topic AW3 Payout Uneven in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Patrick Matthews (Member # 2705) on 07-23-2011, 02:15 PM:

Hi all,

During my first show today I had some very uneven payout on my AW3. It seemed to jerk the film too hard at time making uncentered and very wobbly. It was getting so bad, at times, that I thought it was going to throw the print. Is there anything I can do to trouble shoot this? I have a show on a digital format between now and my next show to try and figure it out.

The platter was not doing this last night. It has done it in the past but seemed to self correct somehow and has been running smoothly lately.

I took a video of the problem which can illustrate it better than I can. I read the rules and didn't mention anything specifically posting a YouTube link and it's been a while since I posted here, so if this is a no no please let me know or just delete it.

Thanks!

Youtube Video Of AW3 Problem

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-23-2011, 03:18 PM:

I'll bet you have that damned invisible led under the axle in the arm. That "upgrade" is notorious for that.

About the only thing you can do right now is to try and re-time the platter. There are instructions on the tips page in the warehouse. Odds are you need to replace the led assembly. Try to find a visible red one, those are bulletproof. The green ones are ok, but the invisible ones are crap.

Posted by Patrick Matthews (Member # 2705) on 07-23-2011, 03:28 PM:

Ok, thanks Brad.

This past show it only did it for reels 2-4, the rest seemed to run normal. I guess since it is happening occasionally it's starting to fail? Can it/would it just fail totally?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-23-2011, 03:30 PM:

Does the erratic payout happen exactly at the reel changes? If so I would lean toward the print OR there could be a burr on your platter deck that is causing the film edge to snag on, which in turn throws your print off-center, thus making the payout more susceptible to that behavior.

Regardless though, what I saw in the video was an improperly timed platter and/or an infared led working its magic.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 07-23-2011, 03:35 PM:

If this is only happening occasionally, it could a static electricity issue. I have also seen this when the person threading the show shifts the print by not lifting the centering ring straight up.

The jerking I see in the video seems to be the result of the film already being off-center, which prevents it from paying out evenly.

For what it's worth, you can place something around the edges of the film while it's rolling to prevent a throw. By spinning the platter forward gently, you can buy a second or two to stop the platter to place something. We have brackets with suction cups. You can also use those reel end holders, or trailer cores placed on end with masking tape holding them to the platter. And I'm sure someone will link you to a platter ring.

Posted by Patrick Matthews (Member # 2705) on 07-23-2011, 03:38 PM:

No, it doesn't seem to be right at the reel changes. I sat up there with it for the majority of this last show and it did it throughout the duration of the middle couple of reels. It didn't seem to do it at all during the last 2 reels.

I will make sure to check the deck and brain for debris throughly before the next show.
If it didn't happen the entire show would that indicate the LED more than it being a platter timing issue?

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 07-23-2011, 03:44 PM:

If this is happening regularly, I would recommend putting something around the outside of the film before starting every show until you resolve the issue.

Posted by Patrick Matthews (Member # 2705) on 07-23-2011, 03:47 PM:

Thanks, I'll definitely do that. I do have the little brackets with suction cups on them that I will put around it for the next shows. I had stopped using them because it has run smooth for quite a long time now but I guess I will have to start again till I get this figured out.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-23-2011, 04:09 PM:

Another trick to think of is to make sure that you're pulling the ring straight up when removing it with two hands. Don't just use one hand, grabbing onto one side and just yanking the ring towards as it comes out for that will off-center a print more than anything.

I break people's fingers when I see them yanking out a ring with one hand, for the majority of that action, the print is definitely off-center on the deck and it's asking to be tossed on the floor.

..and you definitely don't use the one hand trick on STRONG platters with microswitch brains, for I bet many prints have been thrown due to off-center prints when that platter shuts off and on during payout.

-Monte

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-23-2011, 04:14 PM:

If the print being ever-so-slightly off center causes it to throw, you absolutely have timing issues. It shouldn't matter if it is a little bit off center.

Guys, if you look at his video closely you will see there is a specific point in the payout where the speed increases much more so over a 1/2 inch payout arm movement as opposed to the rest. That is either the led dying or improper timing.

To get through the show, simply take something heavy and place in the brain such that the arm cannot move over that far. Set it in place and slowly move it towards the 0% speed end until the platter is no longer spinning fast enough, the move it towards the 100% speed end until it can now keep up.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-23-2011, 08:34 PM:

Ya, the tang was opening way too late to start up the motor, and with that much film on the deck, that's definitely scary of getting tossed.

Agree: put a stop of sort so the tang doesn't swing all the way open .....

Posted by Patrick Matthews (Member # 2705) on 07-23-2011, 10:43 PM:

Well the remaining shows of the night ran perfectly...so I guess that would lead to assume it is a faltering LED rather than a platter speed issue?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-24-2011, 12:42 AM:

..could be both... since one can be related to the other.

Thing with with AW3 units is actually a two step timing procedure: a mechanical and electronical alignment procedures for the deck to work perfectly.

You do the mechanical first - align the filter wheel to the sensor, then with a platter tachometer to set the hi/lo pots motor cards for the proper RPM settings.

If the hi/lo speed can't be reached, this is usually a fault with the sensor going, or have gone bad.

The AW3 manuals has all of the information on this timing procedure.

-Monte

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-24-2011, 02:57 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
You do the mechanical first - align the filter wheel to the sensor

Ummmm, ok. You do realize there is a flat spot on the shaft that the filter wheel is to lock down to, right? Similarly the led assembly is pin registered.

quote: Monte L Fullmer
then with a platter tachometer to set the hi/lo pots motor cards for the proper RPM settings.

Ummmm, again, older model AW3s with the good set of cards require calibrating the led levels before setting speed.

Not trying to pick on you Monte, but you're skipping over critical adjustments and claiming there are adjustments where there are not.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-24-2011, 09:52 AM:

I had an issue about a year ago where the past installer did not remember to ground the platter outlet which was located in the floor and on the same leg as the lamphouse circuit. Well, the ignitor failed in the SLC and high voltage some how made it's way to the platter and blew all three of those new style sensors at the same time. It also unbelievably blew the surge protector on that same leg! Replacing the ignitor solved the high voltage leakage that was making it's way to the platter but I did not find that the platter outlet was not grounded until very recently when we took the gear out for conversion to digital. Whoda suspected that in a 5 year old building! Also found three CFS Consoles in the same chain last week during another conversion that WERE NOT GROUNDED at all! They even had non metalic plastic flex running from the wireway to the console!! All done by the same installer too!

Mark

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-26-2011, 04:11 PM:

That's okey Brad, understand.

Meant by aligning the filter wheel by using the 1/16" allen setscrew adjustment on the return arm tang to align the filter wheel notch to the edge of the photoelectric cell - that'd be the mechanical adjustment.