Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Dolby "Train" Trailer

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Posted by Connor Wilson (Member # 6088) on 08-15-2011, 08:52 PM:

Hi. I was just asking for more info on several versions of this specific trailer. First, I'll give you what I know.

The first version had a supposedly spectacular mix which started quiet, then got loud out of nowhere. It was kind of THX-esque, and from what I've learned lurking on the forums, this scared little kiddies before The Lion King at GCC Northpark West screen 1!

The second version had a different, weaker mix after complaints from exhibitors that the previous version blew up their speakers! LOL

And the third, final version is said to be the worst of all. The five pings that circled all five channels have been reduced to 3 or 4, the entire mix is just as bad, if not worse, and the old silver Dolby Stereo Digital logo was replaced with a newer, gold Dolby Digital logo.

There have been other different variants of that trailer, but probably only appeared on TV, Laserdisc, DVD, etc. One example is the third version with the old Dolby Stereo Digital logo on the North American Widescreen THX Laserdisc of Stargate (1994).

Here are some different uploads of the "Train" trailer on YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWcc96o_Vck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFr-rgdoiSw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8q3SwU0h88
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NpDoNEVbhM (starts at 0:26)

Do you have any more information about this trailer? Thanks in advance.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-15-2011, 10:49 PM:

Besides the above, the only knowledge I have is that it's not available as a DCP which is a cryin' shame. I would take any version. We're using the Countdown and the Sphere, which are both cool, but we're a railroad town so I want the train back, dammit!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-15-2011, 10:52 PM:

You need to get everyone to picket outside the Dolby Booth at the next Cinema Con until they agree to re-rail the train!

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-15-2011, 11:28 PM:

There is no need for a DCP unless they dig out the ORIGINAL mix.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 08-15-2011, 11:49 PM:

I'd pay the price of a ticket to hear the legendary original mix. Hell, they could slap it in front of Glee 3D and I'd go.

Speaking of which, I'd love to see Dolby City again...the original one not that silly CGI one floating around.

AJG

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-16-2011, 12:30 AM:

Yup, there was another one that was destroyed by remixing it.

Speaking of screwing up sound logos, I wish I could find my copy of the THX Cimarron with the original mix. It was sweeeeeeeeet! THX claims to know nothing about it, but it DOES exist. One of these days it will surface and I will record it and post it here (and send a copy to Lucasfilm so they can see what I am talking about).

Posted by Lionel Fouillen (Member # 1475) on 08-16-2011, 04:46 AM:

It's such a shame if THX themselves pretend knowing nothing about it. The original Cimarron was the best THX trailer ever. Especially the 70mm version when played in Dolby SR (the 70mm version was in SR as well as the 35mm version, if I remember correctly). It gave me goosebump every time. I've been endlessly searching Google for it.

Due to the higher dynamics of magnetic sound, the Broadway trailer was quite spectacular as well in 70mm. It was the time where trailer designers had in mind that it was supposed to demonstrate the potentialities of a sound system, and trailers gave you the physical sensation of sound.

The original Train for Dolby Digital was damn good, especially when shown in scope. It featured the original label of the technology, "Dolby Stereo Digital" in silver letters.

When you think about it, all this is already a quarter-century old on average. I pity the youngsters who haven't experienced that era. But back then again, my father who belongs to the Cinerama generation was saying the same when witnessing the excitment of people for 70mm blow-up prints in 1.85 ratio projected on flat screens...

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-16-2011, 05:09 AM:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWcc96o_Vck

This would *appear* to be the original mix (on Youtube, so take it as you will). There is no whistle, it says Dolby Stereo Digital, it's shorter than the whistle version. There's no way to hear it the way it was meant to sound on Youtube, though. I wonder how this Youtube version was created. I've personally had luck recording straight from the DA20 two tracks at a time (which is also beneficial because no EQ is introduced into the signal).

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 08-16-2011, 10:21 AM:

The You Tube version posted looks to be the original. I saw/heard a variety of preliminary sound mixes as I was among several people who worked on this project. The version first played in cinemas was toned down a bit on the sub channel as there were not a lot of cinemas that could play it without clipping and there were perhaps a total of 500 cinemas with SR.D equipment.

It's funny how nostalgia works. At the time we all considered it kind of low budget and minimal, but it was a first for Dolby to compete with THX trailers.

It was later made in a longer version etc. and I lost track as I had left Dolby to start my own company.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 08-16-2011, 10:29 AM:

I posted a comment on that Youtube page Joe. Hopefully they reply. It looks like it was uploaded recently too (14 July 2011).

AJG

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-16-2011, 12:05 PM:

Maybe we should all "like" Dolby's Facebook page and start asking about it. They seem to actively participate in the page. Here's a link to it: Dolby's Facebook

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 08-16-2011, 12:05 PM:

quote: Lionel Fouillen
It's such a shame if THX themselves pretend knowing nothing about it.

Why do you assume they're pretending? The people at THX now aren't the same people that were there back when THX first started (and THX started as a Lucasfilm thing so it's quite possible that no one around at the time to remember this works for them at all).

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 08-16-2011, 12:26 PM:

Posted Mike.

AJG

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-16-2011, 12:54 PM:

quote:
The first version had a supposedly spectacular mix which started quiet, then got loud out of nowhere. It was kind of THX-esque, and from what I've learned lurking on the forums, this scared little kiddies before The Lion King at GCC Northpark West screen 1!

Yeah, I personally witnessed this very thing at GCC Northpark #1. Funny. The intense drum slam on The Lion King title was also very startling. Testament to the dynamics of that theater's powerful and very well tuned sound system.

The original mix is somewhat similar to last Train mix featuring the 1995 Dolby Digital logo. Except the dynamics are a lot more robust.

The real payoff with that trailer is being in a movie theater whose sound system can truly handle and deliver the mix at reference level. I got hooked on the Northpark 1-2 theater with Jurassic Park. They played the THX Grand trailer and the original DTS Digital Experience trailer before the show. Whoa, was that dynamic. And the drum beats on the Jurassic Park opening title pounded the air in my chest.

If more commercial movie theaters could deliver those kinds of dynamics on a consistent basis the way Northpark 1-2 did, I would visit those particular theaters a lot more often. But the combination of PITA customers complaining about loud volume and corporate honchos wanting to cut maintenance costs really get in the way of that.

quote: Mike Blakesley
Besides the above, the only knowledge I have is that it's not available as a DCP which is a cryin' shame.

While a DCP version might be interesing there's really no need for it since Dolby Digital is a lossy compressed audio format. Digital cinema uses uncompressed Linear PCM audio. The only possibility I could see for it would be a Dolby Surround 7.1 d-cinema version of Train. But even there, I don't think Dolby branding makes any sense for LPCM, an audio format that doesn't involve any Dolby encoding process.

quote: Brad Miller
Speaking of screwing up sound logos, I wish I could find my copy of the THX Cimarron with the original mix. It was sweeeeeeeeet! THX claims to know nothing about it, but it DOES exist.

My favorite THX trailer. I saw a 70mm version of Cimarron on the front of Far and Away at a General Cinemas theater on Atlanta's north side. Very cool. Made the hair on the back of my head stand on end when the THX logo flew past the camera. The only other versions I've seen are 35mm SR optical and 35mm Dolby Digital.

I have a DVD style .VOB file of the Dolby Digital one. Still pretty fun to watch.

THX could make a DCP version of Cimarron. But it seems like THX certified theaters are almost as endangered as film-equipped IMAX theaters.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-16-2011, 01:23 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
While a DCP version might be interesing there's really no need for it since Dolby Digital is a lossy compressed audio format. Digital cinema uses uncompressed Linear PCM audio.

I don't care about any of that crap. I just want it because it looks and sounds cool, and has a good "theme" for our area. I've never heard the "original" mix mentioned above so now I REALLY want it!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-16-2011, 02:14 PM:

Dolby DOES have "Spheres" to announce "Surround 7.1" THX has transfered some of their snipes to DCP and have a special 3D snipe now too.

-Steve

Posted by Sam Graham (Member # 2889) on 08-16-2011, 02:59 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
Maybe we should all "like" Dolby's Facebook page and start asking about it. They seem to actively participate in the page.

I see our old friend Andy Summers is an active participant on their page.

You don't have to scroll far to see...

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-16-2011, 04:58 PM:

ya, major sound system for a dinky presentation ....

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-16-2011, 05:35 PM:

quote: Sam Graham
I see our old friend Andy Summers is an active participant on their page.

And still hiding without a picture too.

Posted by Scott Christopher (Member # 834) on 08-17-2011, 10:00 PM:

Here's a link to various Dolby trailers.

http://www.demo-world.eu/trailers/dolby-trailers.php

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 08-18-2011, 12:22 AM:

I've spent some time there Scott. Nothing like loading tons of snipes on a hard drive and listening to them at reference level.

They added a re-done THX Broadway that is HD and remastered graphics. We'll have to wait for Bobby to confirm if the font is the same. It is wonderful if you ask me.

AJG

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 08-18-2011, 03:23 AM:

quote: Brad Miller
I wish I could find my copy of the THX Cimarron with the original mix. It was sweeeeeeeeet! THX claims to know nothing about it

What do you expect from the company that claims there never was a teaser trailer for Indiana Jones And The Temple Of Doom (even though such a trailer appeared on the first video release of Raiders Of The Lost Ark). And this is the same company that in a recent book written/researched by employees of the company goofed up the release dates of three of their own films!

quote: Lionel Fouillen
It's such a shame if THX themselves pretend knowing nothing about it.

quote: Chris Slycord
Why do you assume they're pretending? The people at THX now aren't the same people that were there back when THX first started (and THX started as a Lucasfilm thing so it's quite possible that no one around at the time to remember this works for them at all).

Yes, people come and go, but is there really any excuse for a company not to maintain good RECORD KEEPING and ASSET MANAGEMENT?

Posted by Lionel Fouillen (Member # 1475) on 08-18-2011, 09:05 AM:

Michael, that is exactly what I was thinking, especially when a company, as they periodically should, needs to put into perspective the products/services they're selling.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 08-18-2011, 10:10 AM:

quote: Michael Coate
Yes, people come and go, but is there really any excuse for a company not to maintain good RECORD KEEPING and ASSET MANAGEMENT?

Did I say "I am excusing them for not keeping records"? No. I simply said "They aren't pretending to not know about the item" and gave a possible reason. Also, is it really fair to blame the current crop of employees for some guy years ago never putting any record of the item? Just a thought.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-18-2011, 10:57 AM:

Oh, I could go on and on about asset management. Proper asset management involves paying attention to DETAILS. Far too many people do not want to be bothered with any of the legwork of properly recording information and keeping the crap organized. This situation is horribly compounded when a company changes hands or has a big personnel turnover.

Having everything converted to "digital" doesn't magnically solve all the problems either. In some ways it makes the situation even more complicated. In the past the THX Cimarron trailer was available in 35mm SR optical, 35mm Dolby Digital and 70mm Dolby Mag. With digital they would at least need a 2K or 4K master and companion JPEG 2000-based DCP files and possibly a myriad of different HD and SD encodes for everything from Blu-ray to YouTube. Where are those files being stored? Are they backed-up any place?

I've been dealing with asset/details headaches all week. Some of it is the usual stuff with my day job, like people not knowing the difference between vector-based art and raster-based crap. They act like they know the deal, but then send their "logo" as a JPEG -which of course contains only raster based art. I get a request from a fellow civic club member to send in some photos to the newspaper for a feature being put together. Um, details please? What is the article about? What kinds of photos are needed? Who are the principals involved? It turns out no one at the damned paper knows anything about this feature. Cart ahead of horse.

Details are everything when it comes to asset managment.

Posted by Lionel Fouillen (Member # 1475) on 08-18-2011, 01:40 PM:

HOORAY !!!!!

I knew I still had it somewhere! I just found in my junk a microcassette (yes, a microcassette, not even a minicassette) of a live recording of the early Cimarron trailer playing in a local cinema. Recorded in 1991 with a voice-operated microcassette recorder. The quality of such a recording is not good, of course, but I'll see tomorrow if I can get the sound from the headset output into my computer. If I can get something out of it I'll make an MP3 and will post a link. At least, people who wonder how different it sounds from the later Dolby Digital version will be able to make up their mind.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-18-2011, 05:34 PM:

quote: Aaron Garman
They added a re-done THX Broadway that is HD and remastered graphics. We'll have to wait for Bobby to confirm if the font is the same. It is wonderful if you ask me.

The original version of Broadway used an open face version of Bodoni for "The Audience is Listening" tag line. The new trailer has the same lettering set in Monotype Imprint Shadow MT. I imagine they changed the letter style because that embellished version of Bodoni isn't available from any major type vendor.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-18-2011, 07:08 PM:

To clarify further about that Bodoni Open Face typeface, there is no computer based version of it from a major type foundry like Adobe, Linotype, Monotype, etc. The lettering on the original THX Broadway trailer may have been produced using old school "analog" methods.

Companies like Letraset and Chartpak sold lots of different typefaces where the letters had adhesive backs and were rubbed onto artwork with burnishing tools. Hundreds of typefaces sold in this form during the 1970s and 1980s were never converted into digital formats like Postscript Type 1, TrueType and OpenType.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-18-2011, 08:03 PM:

Bobby, have you ever considered seeking professional help for that font obsession of yours? [Razz]

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-18-2011, 09:17 PM:

The font obsession helps me with my day job. I just wish it paid better. If only I was obsessed with diesel truck engines like my brother.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 08-18-2011, 10:28 PM:

For historical purposes...

Old Trailer

New Trailer

Not necessarily a fair comparison since the the old one is 480p vs. 1080p on the new one, but you get the idea.

AJG

Posted by Lionel Fouillen (Member # 1475) on 08-21-2011, 02:17 PM:

Here it is, as mentioned on page 2 of this discussion ! The live recording of the early Cimarron trailer in a cinema (sound only). I warn you : the quality is very poor but at least it exists. A way to remind us of how it differed from the later version.

THX_cimarron.wav.zip

Edited URL for archiving

[ 08-21-2011, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Brad Miller ]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-21-2011, 02:27 PM:

Yup, that's it!

BTW that is the worst recording I've ever heard, but still that IS the original mix.

Posted by Lionel Fouillen (Member # 1475) on 08-21-2011, 02:36 PM:

Thank you Brad for your kind appreciation [Big Grin]

As some members periodically mention the existence of this or that piece of equipment known to be surviving somewhere, be it a magnetic coater, a 70mm printer, a mixing console or whatever, I'm sure we could even make our own new prints. [evil]

Posted by Connor Wilson (Member # 6088) on 08-21-2011, 10:21 PM:

WOW. That was the old Cimarron trailer? It sounds so different! I thought it always had the same score. I'm thinking about syncing it with the video of the trailer and putting it on YT, but it seems like the old version was much longer.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 08-21-2011, 11:23 PM:

Fascinating. Thanks for that!

AJG

Posted by Connor Wilson (Member # 6088) on 08-22-2011, 08:16 PM:

UPDATE: I restored the original Cimarron trailer. This is the best available version today, I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pguihHhnV5k

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-22-2011, 10:31 PM:

quote: Lionel Fouillen
As some members periodically mention the existence of this or that piece of equipment known to be surviving somewhere, be it a magnetic coater, a 70mm printer, a mixing console or whatever, I'm sure we could even make our own new prints.

The more I think about this it really does seem like a goofy screwed up mess that the original mix for the THX Cimarron has supposedly gone missing. It's a good bet many of the original elements are sitting on some shelf at Skywalker Ranch.

It would be interesting to create a digital file, such as a 2K or 4K DCP and/or 1080p AVC version and maybe even feature both mixes for an interesting comparison.

The original mix is kind of surreal, but scary dynamic. I think it does some of the same kind of thing the Broadway trailer audio does: hit all sorts of audio frequency registers in a hair raising way. The second mix with what sounds like James Horner music is more conventional.

If someone had a 70mm mag version of Cimarron still in good shape it might not be all that difficult to record the cinema processor's audio output. Just gotta have a device good enough at converting the analog audio into digital. The resulting audio could be left as multi-channel LPCM and/or encoded into other formats.

My guess is there's no HD digital version of Cimarron available anywhere. I can't recall ever seeing an anamorphic 480p DVD version either; just rips from Laserdisc. The best thing would be film-scanning the original elements. The newest motion picture film scanners are all built to scan 35mm. I'm not sure if the 65mm/70mm capable ones at MPI were custom built. It would suck to use an old, wobbly telecine setup (and it would probably pose a greater danger to the film trailer).

Honestly, this is another one of those problems that could probably be solved very quickly with a couple phone calls between folks at Lucasfilm and THX.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-22-2011, 10:52 PM:

I have a 70mm mag version of the original Cimarron from Northpark somewhere. Whenever I find it I will record it as discrete 6 channels.

Posted by Lionel Fouillen (Member # 1475) on 08-23-2011, 05:34 AM:

Good job, Connor ! I see you edited out the Dolby Digital logo. Maybe you could replace it with the Dolby SR logo that was originally there in the early Cimarron. It's the classic Dolby Stereo SR "Spectral Recording" logo.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-23-2011, 07:32 AM:

I don't remember there being any Dolby audio format logo at all on the front of the 70mm version of Cimarron.

Edit: I don't remember the original 35mm version having an audio logo on the front of it either. When I saw Thelma & Louise at the Loews Village Theater VII in New York the theater played a Dolby SR snipe and then followed it with a 35mm version of Cimarron.

The original THX Grand trailer didn't have any mention of audio formats either. Grand trailers were later produced with the note "Recorded in DTS Digital Sound" placed at the end along with the original Digital Experience logo. THX made at least one run of the Grand trailer personalized for Dolby Digital. I remember the Carmike 8 here getting some of those by mistake. I'm pretty sure Tex was the first quad format THX trailer.

Posted by Lionel Fouillen (Member # 1475) on 08-23-2011, 08:27 AM:

The 70mm Cimarron had the traditional Dolby Stereo logo, like for A-type. I remember it very well. Which suddenly makes me wonder whether it was recorded in A or SR.
The 35mm was definitely SR.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-23-2011, 08:41 AM:

I would have to see the 70mm version again to be sure. When I saw Far and Away at the General Cinemas Sandy Springs theater they played the THX Cimarron trailer as the very first thing in the trailer pack. If it had a Dolby Stereo logo on the front of it the logo was cut off somehow.

Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 08-23-2011, 08:51 AM:

I have a 35mm Cimarron trailer and it is labeled as being SR.

Posted by Lionel Fouillen (Member # 1475) on 08-23-2011, 09:26 AM:

Bobby, it's possible that this cinema had a lousy screen cutting out a portion of the image. It was the case in a multiplex of my city, which was a conversion from a former single-screen "picture palace from the golden era" done in the late 1970's.

In the big auditorium of the new multiplex, the ceiling was low and there really was a lot of space on the sides of the screen. When they installed 70mm and THX in 1989, they put a new screen (floating - no screen masking) much larger than it should have been: 13x5 meters. Sorry I won't convert to feet, but anyway the ratio is 2.6 which they used as a "one-size-fits-all" for both 70mm and 35mm Scope. Flat 35 though was projected correctly.

It was still OK with 35mm Scope, but in 70mm, a big part of the image was cut out vertically. I remember that when the Cimarron trailer played, the projectionist was doing his best to reduce the loss of important visual informations but couldn't do anything to avoid it. When the image was correctly centered, the Dolby logo and copyright notice were missing from the screen. When the image was aligned to avoid that loss, it's the window with the hand at the beginning which appeared almost in the upper half of the screen. Terrible !!!!

Posted by Jonathan Althaus (Member # 5042) on 08-23-2011, 11:01 AM:

Just a side note....Cinemarks new "XD" policy has quite a few of the same effects

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 08-23-2011, 02:30 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
I don't remember there being any Dolby audio format logo at all on the front of Cimarron.

My recollection is that any format notations appeared at the end of the clip, lower left corner.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 08-23-2011, 04:05 PM:

The one on the THX Ultimate Demo DVD, and subsequent rips floating around online, start with "Dolby Digital Sound in a THX Theatre". The end does have the logo on the bottom right for sure.

AJG

Posted by Lionel Fouillen (Member # 1475) on 08-23-2011, 04:53 PM:

All theatrical Cimarron trailers were bearing the corresponding Dolby logo in the bottom left corner, at the end of the sequence, accordingly to the recording format.

Analog trailers didn't mention "Dolby xxxxx Sound in a THX Theatre". Instead, the window with the conductor's hand appeared sooner and stayed longer.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-23-2011, 10:36 PM:

Okay, now I'm getting confused and probably wrongfully so because I know where/when I've seen both sound mixes of Cimarron in 35mm and 70mm. But it's been, what, nearly 20 years or more since the damned thing has been in circulation?

I've seen the Dolby Digital laserdisc rip of Cimarron enough times to know the "Dolby Digital sound in a THX Theatre" thing is on the front of that particular trailer. How about this Dolby logo thing on the end of the snipe? I'm trying to remember all the itty bitty details about watching 35mm Dolby SR and 70mm versions of the snipe and I'm having trouble recalling ever seeing a Dolby logo at the end, although it very well might have been there and I simply forgot about it.

The Grand trailer is really the first one where I fully paid attention to the sound format being mentioned, but that was only because the "Recorded in DTS Digital Sound" and digital experience logo were positioned right in the middle of the screen on a black background at the trailer's end. No way to forget about that. With Cimarron the viewer is looking at "The Audience is Listening" tagline and all the red sparks things flying around.

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 12-05-2015, 06:25 PM:

It has been 1564 days since the last post.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 12-05-2015, 06:25 PM:

Looks like the fan edit remastered versions been updated.

Nifty!

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 7758) on 12-05-2015, 10:15 PM:

Needs bass, but indeed, pretty nifty.