Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 16mm on a CP200?

This is topic 16mm on a CP200? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Jim Henk (Member # 3628) on 10-10-2011, 02:52 AM:

Anyone ever put a 16mm projector on a CP200? Might it improve the sound a bit? How would such a thing be done, considering the sound pick-up type? (It's an Elmo 16-AL in very nice shape.)

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 10-10-2011, 10:47 AM:

If it a photovoltaic solar cell, you can treat it just like a 35mm optical analog soundtrack and use the optical preamp projector 2 assuming you're only running one 3mm projector.

There are proj. 3 and 4 inputs as well on the CP200 aux rack.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 10-10-2011, 08:10 PM:

Sam is spot on as usual, may I also add that you can (should) jump the L+ and R+ and L- and R- cell connections together, adjust the CAT 108 for the same level on both channels, and of course use Format 01 for 16mm.

I have used that connection and setup scheme in the past with very good results. A bonus is that the CAT 108 gives you slit loss compensation to get the best possible response..but like any optical system it is crucial that the 16mm optics are clean and set up correctly.

And to tweak you a bit Jim, you could have called me for this info... [Smile]

Posted by Jim Henk (Member # 3628) on 10-10-2011, 10:03 PM:

Aww, shucks. Can't bother the same person with everything. That's just being rude. Thanks both.

Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 10-10-2011, 10:17 PM:

As simple as this concept is, it's not something that I have considered before. Thanks for bringing it up. I plan to tap my Kodak Pageant so I can pipe it to my own CP200.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-10-2011, 10:42 PM:

Doing so would be the inverse of playing back 70mm 6 track on a Sony pocket radio.

Posted by Jim Henk (Member # 3628) on 10-11-2011, 02:29 AM:

Come to think of it, though I'm no long-time veteran subscriber here, I've never actually seen anyone selling an auxiliary rack for a CP200 before. Not even on eBay. I would have thought those would be as common as weeds...

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-11-2011, 08:13 AM:

How different is the 16mm EQ curve from the Academy curve? Is there any situation in which the difference could be a problem?

If you have two 35mm projectors and no aux rack, there are two other potential options:

- 16mm solar cell to external preamp (the Symetrix SX202 works well) to non-sync or mag input

- 16mm amplifer output to direct box to microphone input (probably the least desirable option, but it works well if you want to avoid modifying the 16mm projector)

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-11-2011, 10:31 AM:

A one time in L.A. every Academy 16mm screening was through an AshlyBP-41 bass guitar preamp patched into a Dolby processor. The eq is quite a bit different, with the knee poins lower (for 16mm) just like the bass guitar. First one was Directors Guild of America for Bob Perlmutter.

My concern is that on 01 you do get mono, but the knee point plus the academy roll off will leave you unusually dull. On 04 and 05 you get nr which you probably don't want. Louis

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 10-11-2011, 10:33 AM:

Not all CP200's had aux racks, just a relative few where they were need for 5 channel playback or four projector use, or to show off.

I have a couple I saved from the crusher.

Scott is on the money on alternate solutions.

I don't remember the 16mm academy curve but if anything the 35mm curve in the 200 is a bit agressive and makes mono sound dull.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 10-11-2011, 11:36 AM:

We gave always avoided the Academy curve as has been said, it unnecessarily will squelch high-end. You want to suck out as much of any high end that actually exists on the 16mm track. I have very successfully used an external preamp -- the one I have found the most useful and the most able to customize the 16mm eq, is the Joe Meek 3Q Mic Preamp. It is extremely quiet and has a smooth, very sweet 3band eq section as well as the ability to introduce a bit of downward compression.

It allows you to really tweak a 16mm track for best sound; it is a big advantage when you work with the limitations of the 16mm tracks to be able to customize each film you play to get the best sound you can. Set the compressor for a very mild downard compression and you can get the equivelant of some dynamic noise reduction too.

Input this to an AUX input to you are not dealing the nsty Academy roll off which immediately stunts your freq response right out of the gate.

BTW, there are about a half a billion mic preamps out there, the more expensive ones are using tubes (and they charge big-time for that esoteric hook); after looking at quite a few, the Joe Meek fit the bill very nicely. It cames in around a do-able $260.

Posted by Emiel De Jong (Member # 4225) on 10-12-2011, 04:31 AM:

I connected the cell of my Bauer 16mm to my CP50 as Tony describes, better 16mm sound than ever before and it made switching between 35 and 16 sound really easy...

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 10-23-2011, 02:25 PM:

To pop back in on this one, yes the Academy curve did dull the high end..but I tweaked the slit loss a bit to make up for the loss...technically not the best solution but it still sounded pretty damn good. And someone I knew back in the day showed me how to defeat the Academy filter (IIRC it was on the CAT 108..or was it on the meter cards? Been too long....) which was pretty easy to do. Sam would know how I'm sure.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-23-2011, 06:57 PM:

It is on the 109. Louis

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 10-23-2011, 06:59 PM:

Thanks Louis!!

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 10-24-2011, 08:49 AM:

I believe there is a two stage filter on the 109C and only a one stage filter on earlier versions. You can play and take out half the filter on the 109C. The schematic in the CP200 manual show the filter clearly.

If you are running red readers you don't need any slit loss at all.