Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: BY PASSING AUTOMATION ON A KINOTON FP20

This is topic BY PASSING AUTOMATION ON A KINOTON FP20 in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=011051

Posted by Rob Clarke Tucker (Member # 6569) on 10-11-2011, 05:58 PM:

Wondered if anyone can help in re-wiring a Kinoton FP20 which is around 15 years old.

I need to find out how to by pass the automation so that i can get the projector working. At the moment the only way i can get this projector working is to keep my finger pressed on the green start on button.

If some one has a spare copy of the service manual or wiring diagrams this could help.

Cheers,

Rob.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 10-11-2011, 06:26 PM:

Hey Rob, welcome to Film-Tech.

Would you mind going into the editor and making your thread title a bit more specific? Makes a search later much easier.

Posted by Rob Clarke Tucker (Member # 6569) on 10-11-2011, 07:53 PM:

Hey John, thanks for the warm welcome, i have now edited my topic for ease of reference.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 10-12-2011, 01:35 AM:

Rob,

Is this yet another ex Cineworld machine?

If so, there should be some electronics in the back door, NOT the board with all the relays on. Anyway, simply unplug the automation controller and it should run as a standard FP20.

If it's not ex Cineworld, it may well be looking for a contact from a cakestand or another possibility is that it has the orange roller type of film break sensor, and those are notorious for failure.

Posted by Rob Clarke Tucker (Member # 6569) on 10-12-2011, 07:06 AM:

Hi Pete,

Yes it seems these came from Brighton. Thanks for the useful information. I think i know the board you mean which is situated at the bottom of the back door.

Now all i need to do is work out how to re-wire the Xenon Lamphouse.

Posted by Rob Clarke Tucker (Member # 6569) on 10-12-2011, 07:51 PM:

I have unplugged the small circuit board which is situated at the bottom before you get to the large capacitors in the door and no luck?

The plot thickens, tracing the lead from the on green button this is some how wired to the film break senor roller. As I still get power by putting my finger on the green button. But stops when I take my finger off it. Can the on button connection be rewired somewhere else so that it can function as an off-on button?

My only other issue is that the built in dowser is stuck in on mode. Even pressing the on off dowser buttons nothing seems to work.

I believe this was used with a platter system and have also ruled out and cut the wires to the platter sensors which where still attached which I have now dismantled thou has not helped in anyway.

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 4784) on 10-14-2011, 12:56 AM:

Rob, have you screened a film with it already ? I suppose not.
The red roller at the bottom of the projector's head is a film break fail safe. When threaded properly, the film will put tension on said roller and keep the power running.

Posted by Rob Clarke Tucker (Member # 6569) on 10-14-2011, 04:53 AM:

Hello Jean -Marc,

Hope you are well.

I have disconected the red sensor roller thinking this maybe the problem. Thou it appears to be still in automation mode? As soon as i switch on the power the dowser is already in place in the film gate. And when i use the buttons for the dowser on off button nothing works.

The top four buttons (3 white and one green) i press the green button and the projector comes to life until i take my finger off it that is. Not sure what the other 3 white buttons really do. The top two white buttons don't appear to do anything, but the bottow row of buttons one white one green do. The white button advances the film at a slow pace, so i guess this is used for lacing up the film before actually running the film.

Anyway any ideas would be welcomed as to be honest i'm giving up!

Posted by Ben Wales (Member # 92) on 10-14-2011, 02:44 PM:

quote: Rob Clarke Tucker
The top four buttons (3 white and one green) i press the green button and the projector comes to life until i take my finger off it that is. Not sure what the other 3 white buttons really do

When I did Relief Projection Work at ABC/UGC I belive it was common that the Automation would control the Projector Motor (Gretten Ward) the Green Button was normally wired to Motor Run down (inch Down), later converted to Invertor Drive, the other two Buttons would had been Lens Change.

Looking at an ealier (Basic) Drawing for a FP20, there are vaired Drawings and you will need to know what version you have and any Mods that may have been done, I would consider to re-wire back as an Manual-Use Projector, ie without Automation Controled.

Posted by Rob Clarke Tucker (Member # 6569) on 10-14-2011, 03:24 PM:

Hello Ben,

Thanks for that extra information as it now makes sense about the top two row of white buttons that don’t do anything. It would be nice to use these as they were used for lens change but not a major problem if not.

I think that's the only way to go to find out how to get it back to how it was before any modifications were done for automation. The only thing I have to go on to try and identify the version I have is that it is around 15 years old and was made in West Germany.

I have been told that most of the circuits boards including relays needs to be taken out from the door. Thou not sure how true that maybe.

I do know that the row of 4 buttons, the bottom two which include the green have been rewired for automation I would assume.

So if there is anyone who can help me obtain some drawings for this model or a manual that would be the only way to crack this and getting it back to full working condition.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 10-15-2011, 04:09 AM:

If it came from a Cinewold site, where most of the used Kinoton projectors I've seen lately have come from, it will most likely not have been couple to Gretton Ward automation. Unless it was a site they took over from ABC/MGM/Cannon/whateverwe'recalledtoday. Gretton Ward got out of the film automation game a while before Cineworld/UGC appeared on the scene. The usual automation fitted by Cineworld was a Kinoton product. I've never seen it anywhere other than Cineworld sites.

The board with the relays on (try posting some pictures of the innards please). Is necessary as those relays control all the projector functions. Unless you fancy designing and wiring your own control loom.

The behaviour you describe... The machine is functioning exactly as it should with film break open, or stoped by automation.

With regard to the film break roller, you should not disconnect it, it goes open circuit on film break, so you should in reality bypass it. Short the two wires together.

Posted by Tim Asten (Member # 4051) on 10-15-2011, 02:17 PM:

Cineworld Brighton did indeed use Gretton Ward automation. They are converting to all digital around now. Pete is correct though, it was a former MGM. It opened around 1990 making the equipment 21 years old or so. I wasn't aware that Cineworld were selling on their old equipment, I heard they were scrapping it all. They may have kept a few good condition machines for re-sale? Perhaps Rob can tell us where he acquired the machine?

Tim.

Posted by Ben Wales (Member # 92) on 10-15-2011, 03:54 PM:

quote: Tim Asten
They may have kept a few good condition machines for re-sale? Perhaps Rob can tell us where he acquired the machine?

I expect it was a "Back Door" sale as I belive the official terms this stuff is going for scrap, sometimes you see stuff on Ebay and just wondered if this is being sold by the Company Assets Management or some one has got this stuff and sold it on!.

Posted by Rob Clarke Tucker (Member # 6569) on 10-15-2011, 04:42 PM:

Don't think mine came from Brighton but i do know mine came from a Cine World.

Anyway here are picture of the FP20 taking into account i have stripped all the wires that where cut along with taking out some sensor platter attached. Along with any connections to the small board you can see at the bottom of the back door.

Posted by Tom Holdsworth (Member # 6534) on 10-16-2011, 09:07 AM:

Sorry not replying to help out...... but I have an identical FP20 ex cineworld, so far I have not even got any AC into it, how do you get 240 volt AC into the machine? I just have a handful of cut wires and no idea how to get the machine functioning, so would be any help appreciated.

I have sought wiring info. on this forum but nothing helpful so far.

Tom

Posted by Ben Wales (Member # 92) on 10-16-2011, 04:10 PM:

Most of those FP20's (like the one in the picture above) have Invertors, so will need to trace the wireing loom and make a new Switch circuit should one not be wired on the mech for Motor run.

Should the original Kinoton/Philips Electrical Wire Block is in the base trace back to the AC 240v input which is numbered (20 +,40E ,60-).

Also check what Relay Circuit is used as the Contactor Switch for the Motor Relay, I expect this is controled by the Automation and the switch on the Projector is a quick contact switch circuit.
Always check with a Mutltimeter with NO Live Power when checking circuits out!.

Posted by Rob Clarke Tucker (Member # 6569) on 10-16-2011, 04:43 PM:

Hi Pete,

Hope the pictures help, from what Ben spoke about it appears that both start up button and inch down needs to be rewired . So if anyone knows how to rewire this back so that it works as a stand alone FP20 then please let me know. As the relays are in the back door I guess the buttons functions need to be wired back to the back door on the terminal block thou not sure on what number that would be. No expert but was thinking this might be the only way.

Hopefully Ben or Pete can confirm this or give me an idea how to get this back to how it should be as I feel I am half way there.

Posted by Tom Holdsworth (Member # 6534) on 10-17-2011, 11:06 AM:

Hello,

Thanks Ben, AC input connected and the machine runs.

Rob,
On my FP20 the large relay on the big board mounted in the door closes when the green button is depressed as does the upper small relay above it, when the white button is pressed for inching neither relay operates, (I presume your machine operates identically). All the wires cut to remove the machine ran to this board. It seems to me therefore that the door mounted board is part of the automation system and not strictly needed. I think the best way forward is to try to identify which of the external contacts hold the relays latched or to simply install a new relay to short out the contacts on the green button. I also think that it may be that a film break (or other sensor) may be preventing the machine running.

One other thing should the LED's light up on the sound head or are they infra red? Mine don't light up.

Tom

Posted by Rob Clarke Tucker (Member # 6569) on 10-17-2011, 12:41 PM:

Hi Tom,

Sounds like you have not got a voltage supply to your Digital reader. So you will have to try and find one. If you have got one and the wires might be cut you will find this situated at the bottom on your left hand side (underneath fly wheel.

Looking at how these have been re-wired start button and dowser button, inching button, i would assume that these will need to be wired back to the terminal block on the inside door.

I have noted the modifications made for the automation with the dowser button, inching button and start button from the terminal block on the back door. Thou really need confirmation where the wires should go assuming the wires from the buttons need to be connected back to the board with the relays so these actually work?

I would rather keep everything original as it was before it was modified. As you have the relays for the job along with the voltage supply for the pilot light and dowser. Just a question of rewiring it back. As most of the wires are colour coded it could be possible.

Thou confirmation diagrams is a must before work can be carried out.

Posted by Tom Holdsworth (Member # 6534) on 10-18-2011, 12:04 PM:

I have a board at the bottom front of the projector which supplies +15 and -15V plus two LED outputs and a 2 volt output marked En+ and En-, this goes to the lower relay on the inside of the door and appears to be simply short circuited by the relay when energised.

I have the +- 15V and 2 volts on En but nothing on the LED outputs. Are the LED's switched on and off with the changeover system or does the automation switch them on or off as needed, if so what needs to be done to restore the LED voltages, all the fuses are intact.

Thanks

Tom

Posted by Adam Gibson (Member # 5657) on 08-28-2012, 02:38 PM:

hi all, just wondering if anyone got the fp20 running has i have the same problem holding my finger on the start button and yes its ex cineworld if anyone got there's running could you please help

kind regards

adam

Posted by Jonathan Wood (Member # 4614) on 09-04-2012, 03:32 PM:

Hi Adam, seems like you have a machine that depending on the last settings of the automation unit a permanent STOP was created when the PLC was set to “interlock” mode when it was switched off the last time. That means the projector will only run as long as somebody is pressing the Start button; not ideal. It should be possible to bypass the automation board and run the machine manually. You should get in touch with either Omnex Pro Film or you could try hadek@kinoton.de, he might be able to offer some advice but dont expect any online support, most of the techs who worked on this machine have probably retired or gone by now. Good luck

Posted by Adam Gibson (Member # 5657) on 09-04-2012, 09:54 PM:

hi Jonathan thank you very much for your reply and help i will try the people you say and let you know

thanks again kind regards

adam

Posted by Bruce McNaughton (Member # 2691) on 09-14-2012, 06:28 PM:

Hi

It is quite likely that the automation has nothing to do with the issue of latching the 'run' function.
Count down from the top of the terminal strip on the door and with a short piece of wire join terminals 4 and 6 together. This should latch the relay and overcome the issue.

Regards

Bruce

Posted by Tom McGarrity (Member # 7320) on 12-06-2012, 04:30 AM:

Hi Tom, did you manage to get the LED's working on the FP20, and if so, how? I have the same machine/problem. Thanks. (Wasn't able to PM you)

Posted by Matthew Taylor (Member # 2310) on 12-06-2012, 12:49 PM:

The last two terminals on the larger connector (en+ en-) need to be shorted together to enable the LED PSU. These are normally connected to relay RE4. This relay operates when the douser is opened and shorts the enable wires on the LED psu.

Posted by Tom McGarrity (Member # 7320) on 12-06-2012, 02:06 PM:

Good stuff, I'll give it a go. Thanks.

Posted by Tom McGarrity (Member # 7320) on 12-07-2012, 01:56 PM:

Thanks to Bruce and Matthew, machine now runs and leds work.

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 08-13-2016, 04:47 AM:

It has been 1344 days since the last post.

Posted by Ian Griggs (Member # 9542) on 08-13-2016, 04:47 AM:

Well here we go again! A few years have passed since the last comment on this post, but I will resurrect it by saying I just had a late 1980s FP20 delivered yesterday, and of course it won't run!
I have power and the LED / sound head is alive and I can switch lenses by the WS/SC buttons but nothing else. I have a film in to make sure the film break sensor is off.
This machine had no automation (was running a platter), and the controls appear to be very simple. EG ON OFF and that's it.
Where should I start? I can put photos up if it will help anyone, or we could do it by email. Many thanks!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-13-2016, 09:37 AM:

Since it was a platter install, there may be a "break" circuit. Kinoton wired all such devices in series so if there is a break anywhere in the path, the projector stops.

Posted by Ian Griggs (Member # 9542) on 08-13-2016, 06:23 PM:

Thanks Steve.
I have put more comments and some photos on a separate thread now.