Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: LED aisle lights are annoying

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-20-2011, 02:23 PM:

Does anyone else hate white LED aisle lights? I saw a film last night in a venue which uses these, and I find them incredibly annoying. They are far too bright and they also flicker. Because they are LEDs, it is not possible to simply unscrew a few bulbs to make them dimmer.

Please tell me that these are not going to become commonplace in new venues. I am sufficiently irritated by these that I would go out of my way to avoid venues which use them if the same film is also playing somewhere else nearby.

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 11-20-2011, 02:59 PM:

Geeze Scott, I've been in any venues that use them and never found them annoying. In fact I've always thought they were the best aisle lighting system developed. But I've never sat on a aisle seat where I had to look over them.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 11-20-2011, 03:54 PM:

What color? Ours are amber. They aren't hard to tune out once you get situated in your seat.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-20-2011, 03:58 PM:

LEDs can be dimmed. That is if the lighting fixtures have the additional capability built into them. It's very stupid for a theater to not have dimming capability built into all the lighting fixtures in an auditorium.

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 11-20-2011, 04:16 PM:

Oops! That should have been "many venues".

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-20-2011, 04:46 PM:

Ours are LED but they are mounted in the seats, old-fashioned-like, so they aim at the floor. You can't even see them when you're in the seats -- well I guess you could see them from an aisle seat but only if you looked down and not at the screen. They are on a dimmer.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-20-2011, 07:33 PM:

Too bad that their wasn't a cover or something similar that directs the light directly down instead of glaring upwards...true, a 24v dimmer pak would done wonders on this arrangement.

And these lights are the pits for us who wear glasses due to the reflective glare...

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-20-2011, 07:46 PM:

These are (bright) white. This particular venue uses tiered seating and the lights are mounted on the _front_ of the steps, thus shining light right at the screen. The flicker is also incredibly annoying.

Why do people design buildings like this? This was not a theatre (it was actually a multi-use room on a college campus), but films are shown there and they deserve to be shown properly.

Normal aisle lights (mounted on the sides of the seats and directed downwards are fine. These are just obnoxious.

Posted by Joe Elliott (Member # 4006) on 11-20-2011, 07:56 PM:

To me, it is not so bad when they are on the floor. There is a theater near me that opened up a couple of years ago that put them about a foot and a half up the wall. They shine in your eyes the whole movie. I saw a few movies there, and have not been back since. I would hope they finally decided to at least put covers over them so their light was masked downwards.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-21-2011, 02:54 AM:

quote: Scott Norwood
This was not a theatre (it was actually a multi-use room on a college campus), but films are shown there and they deserve to be shown properly.

Ah yes, the despised "multi-use" room so beloved by colleges and art center architects. Translated, "multi-use room" means: A Room That's Not Good For Anything.

In one of the venues I work, they use LEDs but they are placed in a plastic tube but that is embedded into the arm rest of the isle seats. The down light is just bright enough to light the isle but you can't see the LEDs directly from anywhere. Kudos for that, but this multipurpose room suffers from other really nasty issues...like ALL WHITE WALLS! I reiterate Scott's question: "Why do people design buildings like this?!"

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 11-21-2011, 07:40 AM:

The head of a college school of architecture once said to his class, "We are CREATING a space". That implies that it is unnecessary to use prior experience or research of successful prior designs as the CREATE aspect is most important.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-21-2011, 10:45 AM:

Some architects can be pretty annoying when they deliberately design a commercial building with certain features that make it difficult or impossible for the customer to use the building effectively. For instance, quite a few architects will design buildings without any regard at all for signage. Some have the school of thought commercial buildings don't need any signs at all. That sort of Utopian ideal doesn't work in the real world. Any business with a store front needs signs. Instead of trying to eliminate signs, these guys would be better off working with a reputable sign company during the building's design stage. Then they might be able to get something that works with the design rather than something that looks like an after-thought.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 11-21-2011, 12:09 PM:

Bobby,

You prove the point. God did not need to cooperate nor collaborate with anyone in designing the Universe. Why then should an architect need to consult with anyone regarding CREATING a unique space?

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 11-21-2011, 06:22 PM:

Bobby: imagine the restroom situation in such a building!!

I can tell you from personal experience that architects do not like at all anyone with experience (like me) who try to help. Better to fix it later after the pictures are taken and the "awards" are given.

The last major project I was on, the architect HID from the owner for 6 weeks, I was constantly bombarded by questions from other vendors. The cinema did open, but with big problems intact and the little ones I could solve corrected. There is an Indianapolis architect who is more than causal in my early retirement. Louis

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-21-2011, 08:53 PM:

Kenneth said"You prove the point. God did not need to cooperate nor collaborate with anyone in designing the Universe. Why then should an architect need to consult with anyone regarding CREATING a unique space?"

can i quote that to the boss sometime [Smile]

Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 11-22-2011, 12:11 AM:

Hmmh. We are currently in the process of building a new cinema. Well, the shopping center it will be in is being built and we're advicing on how to make the cinema part actually work. It will open next October.

Thank goodness I am not the one having to wrestle with the designers and architechts. The seemingly simple task of speaker placement alone has droned on for weeks [Big Grin]

not to mention the restrooms. I have no idea about those isle lights yet.

Can you yell out The most annoying design flaws imaginable in a cinema so I might be forewarned and maybe able to actually contribute something useful to this building?

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-22-2011, 12:30 AM:

Here's a funny related story. At Notre Dame, when they put up new buildings (they are the most building-est place you will ever encounter -- seems like they've been putting up a new building every year for decades), they would have the landscaping subcontractor design nice looking pathways and sidewalks to all the doors to/from the new building.

Much to their dismay, seems the students would hardly ever use those paths; they would wind up walking anywhere they wanted, disregarding the little fences and chains they put up to keep the students ON THE PATHS. So it would come to pass (sorry, tis the season) that the recalcitrant students would wearing ruts in the lawns around the university's spanking new building creating one ugly mess.

Finally the good padres wised up and when they built the new library -- a massive building with more doors than you can count -- they decided, let the students decide and they just put sod completely around the entire building and just let the students walk to and from the place any way they wanted.

Within a month it was clear where they needed to put all the sidewalks!

The Japanese architect who designed one of the theatres where I work happened to be back in the states about two years after the theatre had opened; he came to visit us.

He was unusually curious, asking lots of questions about how we liked the space, the booth, what we didn't like, etc. This guy it seems is a farely famous architect (which is why the museum paid a very huge fee for him to "CREATE" a cinema. I guess it bought them bragging rights to have a theatre designed by this big shot Japanese architect, and THAT’S what tax payers were paying for because it was, by all accounts a pretty unimpressive space.

Anyway, I told him things I didn’t like and was surprised how resceptive he was of my criticism. Then he enlightened me -- critisism was expected -- in Japan, he explained, architects don’t consider their work complete until people have been living in their building and they are able to ask what the pluses and minuses are...what they like and don't like about the place. THEN THEY FIX IT; you know, like REPAINT the WHITE WALLS. That’s why he was asking so many questions. Of course in the USA, once the building is declared “finished” and it is opened and occupied, no owner is prepared to start fixing, and redoing stuff two years later.

It’s a good idea, though, although one would think with the kind of money they paid this guy, he would know enough not to make costly mistakes in the first place. Then again, he admitted this was the first cinema he ever designed and he seemed genuinely horrified when I told him white walls were a huge no-no in a cinema, almost, in fact, as horrified as I was the first time I threw a picture up on the screen and saw the entire room light up like a Christmas tree and wash out all the blacks in the image.

Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 11-22-2011, 06:11 AM:

quote: Elise Brandt
Can you yell out The most annoying design flaws imaginable in a cinema so I might be forewarned and maybe able to actually contribute something useful to this building?

We've all probably seen too many! Here's a "Top Ten" list I've accumulated over the years.

10. Double-paned soundproof porthole glass. Light robbing, image distorting, and could only be cleaned on both sides with an extension ladder.

9. Auditorium seating so steep that seats had to be reserved near the entrance for patrons who were unable or afraid to climb to a good seat. Handrails would have been nice, too.

8. Soundproof booth with no fire annunicators in it, and halon fire suppression systems to kill the projectionist who didn't know there was a fire in the building in the first place.

7. HVAC systems that are under/oversized. To small and the room cooks when fully occupied. To big and wild swings in temperature occur. Don't be a cheapskate here, and double check the engineering firm's math. They've probably built too many office parks.

6. Amazingly loud whooshing sounds from improperly sized air handling ducts and/or heat pumps. See #5

5. "Cleaning" light switches in the auditorium, adjacent to the exits, at normal switch height. The kids love this one!

4. "Multipurpose" room. 'Nuf said.

3. Aspect ratio,aspect ratio, aspect ratio. Even the big chains didn't get this one right during the big building boom in the 90s. Seating distance varies with screen height, not width, Mr. Architect.

2. I would like to personally thank Mr. I.M. Pei for not one, but TWO triangular screening rooms in one building with impossible projection angles and seating positions. If the room is going to be triangular, try to put a right angle in one of the corners. It looks really cool, though.

And at NUMBER ONE we have

1. Overenthusiastic aisle AND exit lights that shine light onto the projection screen!!!!

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-22-2011, 07:07 AM:

What Tom said.

I have worked in too many of these multi-use facilities; here is my hit list:

- screen size too big or too small for seating area
- screen mounted too high or too low with respect to audience
- screen mounted too far back on a stage
- screens which roll up like windowshades (these never work right and eventually sag; the only proper way to fly a screen is as a single piece unit that flies vertically)
- room wider than it is deep (I _hate_ this configuration; it usually leads to extra-short throws and mega-keystoned images; it also just feels wrong to have an extra-wide theatre)
- loudspeakers mounted anywhere other than behind the screen in the usual position
- video projector mounted between two 35mm projectors (increasingly common)
- giant port window spanning width of the booth, rather than individual portholes in booth
- tiered seating (in general...properly sloped floors are much better)
- white or light-colored walls
- reflective flooring in front of screen (hardwood floors are the worst)
- any type of seating other than standard theatre seats (preferably _not_ high-back seats)
- seats lined up into perfect rows (seats should be staggered)
- light-colored seat material
- screens in any native aspect ratio other than 2.35:1 (or 2.39:1)
- pipes for mounting lighting equipment mounted right above projection ports
- video projectors installed anywhere other than in the projection booth
- Crestron or AMX touch panels (I have never personally seen a situation where these improve presentation quality; if they _must_ be used, there need to be adequate and well-placed manual controls for everything in the booth)
- no way for projectionist to control spotlight on lectern and/or microphone for film introductions (this results in either sloppy presentation or the need for two operators for every show)
- film sound routed through main mixing board (have this as a backup, but not as the primary way of reproducing film sound; always have a completely separate system for film sound...maybe share the amps if you must)
- film sound not routed through hearing-impared system
- not equipped for any of the following formats, all of which _will_ show up at some point at nearly every multi-use venue: full-aperture silent (with variable speed), Academy, 1.66:1, 16mm
- projection booths that do not meet code (usually by lacking a bathroom and/or proper lamp exhaust; also, many lack emergency lighting)
- and, to repeat what was said earlier, obnoxiously bright exit signs (and poorly placed exits) and aisle lights

I have seen all of the above. Don't do them.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 11-22-2011, 05:54 PM:

My big one is the center aisle: Good sets are missing and we create twice as many bad seats. Well done! Louis

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 11-22-2011, 06:52 PM:

I agree with Louis about the lack of center aisle and twice as many bad seats. I like to sit on the aisle so I can leave without disturbing anyone and now I'm lined up with the left or right edge of the screen.

200 seat stadiums = work of the devil

Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 11-23-2011, 10:31 AM:

quote: Elise Brandt
Can you yell out The most annoying design flaws imaginable in a cinema so I might be forewarned and maybe able to actually contribute something useful to this building?

Here are some design tips based on faults in some local cinemas. More to do with the general layout than the technical aspects. You are probably too late for some of these.

-It should get darker as customers walk to the screens, avoid windows in the approach to the screens.
-Definitely avoid windows that allow the sun shine through the main entry door, directly onto the screen.
-Have some waiting space near each screen (if you can get customers out the foyer before the screen is ready it makes things calmer at busy times)
-If you have a cafe/bar have toilets located so customers do not have to enter the ticketed area of the cinema
-Have the cash handling office close to the sales area (same applies to the managers office)
-If possible have windows in the managers office and staff rest area
-Don't put a window in the cleaners cupboard/ store room visible from the main frontage of your building.
-Think about where to put standees, a lot of sites have them on balconies or at windows facing inwards, people outside the building can only see the arse of the standee (bare cardboard).
-Think about servicing routes (deliveries/ rubbish removal). Make it easy to get a pallet from the loading bay to the store room. Have a route from the ushers cupboard to the bins that does not involve impregnating your carpet with bin juice.
-If you have large roller shutters at the front of your building have a conventional door as well (for letting the opening staff and small deliveries in)
-Locate light fittings so that lamps can be easily changed, make those that are harder to change ultra long lasting.

For the shopping centre aspect:
-Think about the access routes when the shops are closed (can most of the centre be closed off?). A shuttered shopping centre is not the nicest to walk through.
-Do the car parks close at night (before your last film)?
-Try to be located away from the (fast) food areas of the centre. Full service restaurants are better as they don't compete as much.
-Have some shopping centre run toilets close to your entrance.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 11-23-2011, 01:27 PM:

Scott would hate my big room at UC Irvine (see the pic warehouse) as it has a lot of the flaws he mentioned. I wasn't in on the design stage of that one. However, the smaller room I built in 2009 for them corrects many of those issues.

RE touchscreens: The reasons most projectionists hate them are two-fold:

Most of them have poorly thought out button locations/functions. Programmers design them to be pretty, but the individual projectionist(s) MUST be involved in the design and layout. (It took me three tries to get HIB 100's touchpanel to where I wanted it..and I am the operator/programmer!)

The second thing is that touchpanels are not "tactile", i.e. there is no physical travel to the buttons. This is an issue, especially when doing changeovers as you have to be careful not to touch the button too early.

The flip side is that you can integrate all kinds of functions to a touchpanel, changes are very easy to do (no drilling/cutting/wiring of panels/wallplates), and you can do "macro" buttons easily. (I have auto show start buttons which with one touch precisely time lights, curtains, motor starts and dowsers, sound formats, etc.)

As for the LED problem he experienced, one very common cause of lack of dimming with LED's is using the wrong dimmer! LED drivers are very picky about dimming, the wrong dimmer will cause all kinds of issues like flickering, limited dim range, driver or dimmer burnout, etc. I have blue LED's in the new room at UCI on a Lutron Grafik Eye system, and we have no issues with them dimming or flickering. The dimmer system has a specific profile for LED's programmed into it.

Sounds like that theatre didn't have a dimmer or bypassed it.

Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 11-23-2011, 06:32 PM:

That flickering could be a failing power supply, but Tony's spot on about dimming. Either a line-voltage dimmable transformer or a 0-10V low voltage driver (a-la old timey stage dimmers) is required.

Posted by Robert Throop (Member # 61) on 11-24-2011, 10:17 AM:

My pet peeve with multi use rooms is location of the booth floor even with the floor in the back of the auditorium for "handicap access". This requires the projectors to be raised on some sort of platform. When the projectionist falls off a stepladder while loading a projector they'll need handicap access.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 11-24-2011, 10:42 AM:

Robert: we would have been fined (because we might have a handicapped projectionist) if we ever did that. I even have a few theatres that had to install a $175k elevator for wheelchair access. Louis

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 11-24-2011, 07:32 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
My big one is the center aisle: Good sets are missing and we create twice as many bad seats. Well done! Louis

quote: Sam D. Chavez
I agree with Louis about the lack of center aisle and twice as many bad seats. I like to sit on the aisle so I can leave without disturbing anyone and now I'm lined up with the left or right edge of the screen.

200 seat stadiums = work of the devil

I think you guys are both agreeing on the opposite opinion. It's the existance of center aisles (not lack of them) then Louis is bemoning in his post. I'd tend to agree.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 11-24-2011, 10:37 PM:

Just to be clear, I can't remember the last time I saw a stadium with a center aisle. I miss them as you need to trip over twice as many feet to get to an aisle.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-24-2011, 10:46 PM:

I agree center aisles are bad, but a huge number of seats with NO aisle is bad too.

The (former) Fox theatre in Billings has at least 30 or more seats across the widest rows, with no middle aisles. It's now a performing-arts house. A trip to the bathroom mid-show in that place is almost undoable if you're in one of those middle seats. If not for a row of doors along one side that lead directly to the street, they'd probably never pass fire codes. Actually I'm surprised they pass even with the doors. It takes a long time to clear that building even when everyone's calm.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-25-2011, 01:02 AM:

The theatre at St. Mary's in South Bend has one of those WIDE isle configurations -- I am going guess about 40 seats wide with NO isles except on either end of the rows. BUT the rows are spaced so that there is enough room between each for a person to walk across the isle comfortably without disturbing anyone who is sitting normally -- i.e., not stretching their legs out way in front of them, but with knees making right angles in the legs. It's a long walk, but it will not cause anyone to have to pull their feet in under their chairs or stand up or any of the other knipshuns people have to go thru to let someone pass.

Of course, this is not a commercial theatre. In a commercial theatre eating up that much space just so you don't need mulitple isles would be insane.

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 4784) on 11-25-2011, 02:19 AM:

I'm surprised by the numbers read in the last two posts. Don't you have regulations for seating? Here, you can't have more than 8 seats between a wall and an aisle and no more than 16 seats between two aisles.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 11-25-2011, 06:13 AM:

The fire regulations in Michigan require that there are no more than 6 seats to the nearest aisle. Therefore the maximum number of seats between aisles is 13. The local civic auditorium got a variance for their theater and they have "continental seating". There are many seats with the aisles only at either side wall. Most people do not like these center seats as they are totally user unfriendly. Oh, Yes, the rows of seats are so close together that everyone must stand up to let you pass in front of them.

Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 11-25-2011, 09:10 AM:

quote: Sam D. Chavez
Just to be clear, I can't remember the last time I saw a stadium with a center aisle. I miss them as you need to trip over twice as many feet to get to an aisle.

The average number of seats to an aisle will be the same, so will the maximum.

The customer has to choose between the better seat for access (aisle) or better seat for view (centre), whereas a centre aisle had seats (at the wall) that were worse in both situations.

Customers using the side aisle will be less visible than those using the centre aisle. Late arriving customers will be less disturbing to those already seated. A handrail mounted down the wall will ease access for those more infirm.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-25-2011, 10:41 AM:

I don't know about anyone else but the theatre I mentioned was built in the 1930s so it was "grandfathered in."

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 11-25-2011, 11:27 AM:

That wide, no center aisle is sometimes called "Continental Seating" to dress up the concept.

It does look pretty in pictures but does not work so well, especially now with silver screens where sitting on an end seat is intolerable due to poor light distribution.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 11-25-2011, 01:16 PM:

quote: Robert Throop
My pet peeve with multi use rooms is location of the booth floor even with the floor in the back of the auditorium for "handicap access". This requires the projectors to be raised on some sort of platform. When the projectionist falls off a stepladder while loading a projector they'll need handicap access.

Yep we have that exaggerated elevation to the film projector's floor at UCI's HIB 100 but it was more because of the dual use booth. Still a pain and it does result in a steeper than necessary projection angle. Thankfully the throw and screen size make it not too bad in the keystone department.

quote:
Robert: we would have been fined (because we might have a handicapped projectionist) if we ever did that. I even have a few theatres that had to install a $175k elevator for wheelchair access. Louis

Yep, one of the biggest jokes of the whole HIB 100 booth is we have said elevator installed as well. The Kinotons are so tall and the #2 machine is so close to the sound rack (and the machines are close together anyways) that there is NO WAY an operator in a wheelchair could ever run a show there. But since the booth's restroom is on my upper level, and the mid level used to be run for classroom use, they had to put it in I guess.

Come to think of it, the counter for the A/V use on the lower level is so high that again a wheelchair-bound operator couldn't see over it to do anything anyways.

One location where they should have pushed hard for an ADA exemption and saved a ton of money.

Posted by Markus Ito (Member # 6207) on 11-29-2011, 03:44 PM:

In our theatre we simply unscrewed the grill that directs the light to the floor and installed a blue gel between the light and the grill. This makes the light dimmer but it is still bright enough for lighting the stairs and walkways. Blue is also not as distracting as a bright white light.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-29-2011, 05:38 PM:

It think those regs are probably set by local or state and like it's been mentioned, those with deep pockets can buy almost any variance they want.