quote: Sam D. Chavez

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if some others (not you) promise to stop posting after partaking.

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But Sam, thats when my true sarcasm comes out.

Rick
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-01-2011, 05:31 AM:
 
Granted I have pulled many analog units out too but with proper gain structure the SN can be decent at least on the old JS series. But to pull a perfectly good CP-65 out makes no sense to me. I recently re-installed one of the latter(on a D-Cinema Screen in fact). I couldn't bear to leave it behind to rot in the booth...

I can sertainly see yanking Smart, Peavey, ALL Sony's even though the 3000 has 6 track inputs it is not worth the hassle to repair when it drops, and a few other really old units too.

Mark
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-01-2011, 06:35 AM:
 
Your hearing is going...the S/N of JS and even Dolby CP65s and CP500s are not that great. Way too much hiss, always have been. The EQ facilities on the surrounds of a CP65 and prior is a joke (and always was, at least the CP200 offered the option of 1/3-octave EQ).

There is absolutely no point in putting in a CP65 as a DCinema processor with a D/A converter. What do you get for that effort? Three 1/3rd octave EQs and a VCA? All with a low S/N. Better hope you have noisy A/C to mask it. Furthermore, Dolby has ceased support of the CP65 and as such, it becomes a liability.

Dave, the DMA8 + is about $800 less than a CP750
 

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Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 12-01-2011, 11:39 AM:
 
How about a booth keeping 2 35mm projectors but adding digital projection.Processor is a CP55 WITH CAT 441,SRA5 with cat 280t cards and a DA20. Also have D.T.S 6D.
We are a single screen theater built in 1933 and have great acoustics pushed by Altec voice of the theater center and smaller Altecs for left and right.
Amplifiers are Crown XLS 602.
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 12-01-2011, 02:00 PM:
 
A good place for a CP-650. Louis
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 12-01-2011, 04:58 PM:
 
Louis: Someone already said that I think..wait a minute, I'll look back through the thread......oh, yeah, here it is:

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr

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Ian,

If possible, forget the DA20 and any other combinations of Digital Decoder/Processor..why?

Used CP650's are really cheap now, Around $3500 USD or less.

Contact Moving Images Technologies (Bevan's company) as they frequently get CP-650's from cinemas doing digital upgrades.

Many other processors are in the no longer available/supported category and it would be foolish to invest in them, even in the short term IMHO. (If you ever need to get rid of the CP650 odds are that unlike any of the obsolete processors, it will still have some resale value.)

Bonus: A CP650 with the CAT 790 card installed (easy to get in the price range I quoted) WILL be digital cinema ready.

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I thought that idear sounded familiar.
 

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Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 12-01-2011, 06:41 PM:
 
Is the CP 650 a future proof,convenience only suggestion or does it also sound better in all formats including SR,Dolby A and mono.

If I were sticking with the CP 55 I would of course buy spare cards and so on to keep it running well into the future.

It just seems like a waste to pull it all out.
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 12-01-2011, 08:25 PM:
 
As indicated above; less hiss, lower distortion, etc. Currently supported (buy 2?) Does the job.

I do personally like CP-55s, but even I realize their day is clearly over. (said so over 12 years ago.) Louis
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-01-2011, 08:26 PM:
 
Victor,

Since the CP55 is installed and working...I would add something like a CP750 to the food chain...have the CP55/Film system come in on the analog inputs (Note the JSD100 will do the same thing as will the various QSC DCP systems).

Then flatten out any EQ done in the CP55 (you could even bypass them to lose some noise). Use the EQ and fader of the DCinema processor. Your film sound will likely be unchanged or perhaps quieter and your DCinema sound will not suffer a bottleneck of the old analog processor.

Your cost for this is going to be under $3000. Now a CP650 new is going to be more than 3X as expensive as just adding a DCinema processor. If you find one used, then that may be worth it to use a single processor. Sound wise, the CP650 is no slouch. It is a bit wanting on the format buttons though. The other down side to going with a CP650 is alternative content. You are fast running out of inputs. You could add something like a DMA8 + or a Geffen A/V scaler to feed the 6-channel input...but that is yet more money. With a CP750 as an add-on you get extra AES inputs with the unit that will do AC3 and Prologic II decodes.

-Steve
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-01-2011, 08:56 PM:
 
Related question: which is likely to be serviceable for film-only use further into the future--a CP65 or CP650? Obviously, the latter model is newer, but my inclination is to think that the analog unit, with its more basic components, would be more easily serviced without manufacturer support.

I have been tempted by the cheap CP650s on the used market, but have stuck with the CP65 in my screening room for this reason. Should I think about upgrading even though I have no use for the additional features on the 650? In my case, sound quality is secondary to longevity. I have a spare preamp card, matrix card, and power supply, which are presumably the most likely parts to fail. I probably should get a spare control card, too, if I decide to keep the thing.

In principle, I'd rather upgrade my speakers than the processor, but I wonder how long the glut of CP650s will last....
 

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Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 12-01-2011, 10:27 PM:
 
Scott, your CP65 will probably be working long after a CP650 will have bricked. If you collect a few spare boards (certainly the film boards are being discarded in large volumes as cinemas with CP65s convert to D-cinema: the preamp, NR, and matrix cards are usually removed and tossed to reduce power draw and heat) you should be good for many years. There are some completely obsolete and unobtainable semiconductors in the CP65, but they are pretty durable. Fairly complete schematics are available for the CP65 and the parts, even if unavailable, were once standard and you can still find archived datasheets that describe exactly what they do. A software based unit like the CP650 is a different animal: the software is proprietary and the schematics are meaningless - they use programmed logic arrays and the like whose purpose can be guessed at but the actual functionality is unfathomable without (unpublished) programming data. When it breaks, probably only Dolby will be able to fix it... will they be fixing them in 10 years?

As to the original question... the DAX is not a film sound processor, and - if I understand what you want to do - would be useless. Adding a DA20 to your Panastereo will get you Dolby Digital film sound. You should be able to get one for very cheap or free. Forget the DA10, even free is overpriced. DTS is an option too but getting the discs can be a struggle now and once film is eliminated this will become impossible.
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 12-02-2011, 09:15 AM:
 
I do believe that Dolby exchanged DA-20 for DA-10 for free. It is my understanding that they got back about 98% of them. For sure the -10 won't play later films at all. Louis
 

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Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 12-02-2011, 04:22 PM:
 
Thanks guys!

I do like the idea of adding a cp750.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 12-02-2011, 06:20 PM:
 

quote: Dave Macaulay

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There are some completely obsolete and unobtainable semiconductors in the CP65, but they are pretty durable.

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Durable or not, obsolete and unobtainable is just that. When/if that part blows, guess what? You're still screwed.

quote: Dave Macaulay

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Fairly complete schematics are available for the CP65 and the parts, even if unavailable, were once standard and you can still find archived datasheets that describe exactly what they do.

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quote: Dave Macaulay

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A software based unit like the CP650 is a different animal: the software is proprietary and the schematics are meaningless - they use programmed logic arrays and the like whose purpose can be guessed at but the actual functionality is unfathomable without (unpublished) programming data.

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quote: Dave Macaulay

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When it breaks, probably only Dolby will be able to fix it... will they be fixing them in 10 years?

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Why not? Look at how long they supported ALL of their previous analog processors after production ended.

And since a lot of CP-650's are likely to be retained even by all-digital houses, I expect Dolby's support to continue for quite some time.

Finally, since CP-650's used have come down so much in price, you can probably afford to pick up a spare of you're so worried about parts.

Victor, (and Ian) listen: You have an analog processor that is no longer made, is noisier than a CP-650, and does not support digital film or D-Cinema.

FOR THE SAME (or less) money than you'd end up spending on a CP-750, you can get the best of ALL worlds with a CP-650. (With the input limitations that Steve pointed out.)

And I can set you up with fully automatic switching between DTS and any other 6ch analog input source with one simple add on card (hint: DTS/DataSat makes it) like I did at UC Irvine.

Trust me on this one man.
 

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Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 12-02-2011, 06:59 PM:
 
In my case Tony,we have already spent the money on a CP55 upgraded with cat441 and sra5 + DA20 and cat 700.

This itself was an upgrade from a Smart Mod8

I bought the DA20 and CP55 about 4 years ago before the Digital scare became so LOUD!
It took 3 years to get the sra5 and cat441 so that's why I am reluctant to part with it.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 12-02-2011, 08:52 PM:
 
Victor, Victor, Victor......oy veh.

Let me spell this out yet again:

New CP750: $3500

Good, used, LOADED CP-650: $3500 or more likely LESS.

S/N performance of CP-650: Much better than ANY CP55 or CP65.

Versatility: Well above anything other than a CP-200, there are TONS of new Formats in the CP-650 in both Analog and digital (AES) processes.

Availability and support: Still available for CP-650.

Dude, my fully loaded CP-65 is now sitting on my office floor..I replaced it with a fully loaded CP-650 that cost me $3000. Worth every penny.

You DA-20 has some resale value so your ultimate cost for a CP-650 will be a lot less than what I quoted. The CP-55 is worth no more than a few hundred, same for the SRA-5.

Unless this is your home screening room, don't fall in love with the CP55/SRA5/DA20 combo. It is, in today's world, the FM table radio of cinema sound.

Gain a bunch of rack space, get better sound and install something that is readily supported.

Go CP650!!!!


 

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Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 12-02-2011, 09:29 PM:
 
I was just checking e-bay and only one CP650 is in the 3000 range.
The rest are closer to 5000 buy it now or make offer.

The CP650 certainly makes sense except for warranty issues buying used.
Does it do everything a CP55 does like 2 projector changeover for instance?
Does it look as sweet as my CP55 AND DA20 do in the rack?
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 12-02-2011, 10:10 PM:
 
Triple oy vey on you this time...

Why are you looking on Fleabay?

Our own Brad Miller has CP-650s listed in the Equipment for sale forum, Moving Images Technologies has them, you just gotta put forth a bit of effort.

And if you don't want to find one, I'll get you one, contact me at my email that you already have.

And yes it does 2 projectors, in analog AND digital, does a LOT more than your combo (the NR on a CP650 is excellent BTW) and looks a hell of a lot nicer in a rack than the combo you have now. (I think it looks better than my CP65 and I loved that processor.)

Here's mine: (I took this without flash so it's a bit fuzzy.)



Time to move on from your older stuff my friend.
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 12-03-2011, 09:43 AM:
 
If you want a NEW CP-650 I have a new, never opened in-the-box. What do you want to pay? Louis
 

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Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 12-03-2011, 11:28 AM:
 
I am only guiding the owners to purchase the right equipment when the time comes.They are working on financing for this and while it looks possible nothing is concrete yet.

The distributors we mainly deal with have not come on board with any VPF and it looks like a VPF could end up working against us in the long run because we would be locked into playing stuff for too long and not playing the variety of titles we need to play.

VPF seems to have more costs than savings at the moment unless you are a big player with multiple screens in the right location.

VPF deals seem to be for those who don't need a VPF deal.

We play art,foreign,independent,classics and the odd second run.
Going digital is a survival tactic and it's not clear if we can survive this tactic.
We are the last single screen in this city and we are coveted by local film lovers who want us around.Our commitment to quality presentations has not gone unnoticed,our attendance is increasing every year but is it enough? Who knows?

We opened in 2005 with a Smart Mod 8 and Kollmorgan coke bottle lenses.Now our new standard is Ultrastar HD curved gates and the Dolby stuff which was bought without loan money.
So the CP 650 and CP 750 advice is appreciated!
Tony,I didn't see much on Film-Tech for CP 650S,Brads are more like $5000 and the other ones are $2000 but might be the lesser CP 650D or CP 650SR.
Louis I will keep your NIB in mind but it sounds expensive.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 12-03-2011, 12:49 PM:
 
Victor, contact Louis and make him an offer of what you can affornd....based on the fact he even posted what he did the price is gonna be flexible.

Again, contact me off site on getting one if you need to.

I have CP-650's in screening rooms that have been on 24/7 for over 8 years without a single failure, so buying used in this case is not a risk at all. The CP-650's seem to be pretty bulletproof.

(Now as for the current issue I'm having with my NEW CP-650 at UC Irvine, I am now inclined to think the problem is software related. See my newest post today in that thread for details.)
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-03-2011, 05:01 PM:
 
Just to be clear Tony...your estimate for a CP750 is about $1000 high. In Victor's situation, I would definitely recommend the CP750 and keeping the CP55 with all the fixins since he already has it. The CP650 is far too limiting as an all-in-one. The only time we use them is if someone has one and is going DCinema (and even then, Dolby has a special quite often that makes using anything other than a CP750 quite expensive). The other time we use a CP650 is if one is putting IN a film system (yes, we still do that!) or is replacing an unreliable system.

As to the CP55/65 parts being obsolete...which ones? The 2:4 decoder (Sanyo chip on CAT 150E or the Analog Devices chip on the Cat 150F)...is about the only one I know of. If so...big deal, getting a "prologic" decoder isn't really that hard and one can stock pile Cat 150s at this point. As for making a replacement Cat 150...just looking at the Cat 150F one can see they are down to putting a chip on the board (and that was about 10-years ago)...any maybe a regulator or two. One need not be too clever to fabricate a replacement Cat 150, if the need ever arises.

Datasat took a different approach with their AP20...they fabricated a "film" board so that one could add film to what is essentially a DSP based box.

So I stand with, rather than obtaining a CP650, I would add a CP750, JSD100, DCPx00 or any one of a bazillion DSP based processors. This is NOT a knock of the CP650 however one should think of it as a FILM processor that CAN play DCinema...if you bought one for film, Congratulations, your transition to DCinema will be at most, a card away. If you don't have one yet, then it is likely not your most economical nor most flexible solution in a DCinema world.

-Steve
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 12-03-2011, 09:34 PM:
 
Kind of depends if your archive thinks it will have any future at all with film. I'm with Steve for commercial cinemas; but an archive might be better off even so with a 650.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 12-03-2011, 10:16 PM:
 
And Victor's operation would be better off with a 650 IMHO.
 

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Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 12-07-2011, 02:08 PM:
 
Reading Victor's above post, it seems we are both in very similar situations.

We run arthouse currently 4 shows per week - as of next year down to 3 shows/week.

When there are 'non-cinema' suits holding the purse strings, it can be almost impossible to get any upgrade approved.

Case in point -: Our gain rollup screen is 20 years old this year and in dire need of replacement. Said suits held a 'meeting' in the auditorium to consider an application for screen replacement.

Result? Application rejected.

Solution? To spray the screen with aluminium paint.

Truly a 'What the ' moment.

So, having suits with brains up their arses controlling the $$$, it is verging on the impossible to push for audio upgrades the likes of a 650/750 as much as I would prefer that option, hence the original question.

As it currently stands, the most likely - read humanly possible - solution to getting 35mm Dolby Digital audio is to go DA20.

My patrons have had to put up with SR for long enough (this is in no way a critique on SR per se) and I'm getting to the stage where if these jokers don't cough up some $$$ then I'll damn well buy something myself and install it.

Addendum -: Said suits at above mentioned meeting are on $160- 170,000 a year.
 

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