Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Simplex 35 Projector / Framing issue

This is topic Simplex 35 Projector / Framing issue in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Zachary C Washburn (Member # 3390) on 03-02-2012, 01:15 PM:

I Have an old Simplex 35MM Projector Head model 1050 that keeps slipping out of frame. I have replaced the vertical drive shaft, the intermittent assembly, and just today replaced the framing the shutter assembly. It was good for all of about 30 minutes. As the projector is running I can actually feel a ticking on the framing knob.

Any suggestions? I am using an RCA sound head. The motor feels fine and I would imagine that if it was the gearbox I would be having another set of problems completely.

Thanks.

-Zach

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 03-02-2012, 01:39 PM:

Film gate closure, intermittent shoe alignment, film gate tension, worn intermittent shoes. Is the framing rake set in mid position?

Posted by Zachary C Washburn (Member # 3390) on 03-02-2012, 01:44 PM:

Yes the frame is set to mid position.

I replaced the intermittent as the entire assembly.

I can try the film gate closure. But the slip is definitely more rhythmic.

Looking inside the projector while it is running I can see that the guide rod on the framing and shutter assembly has a lot of back and forth movement. This was also present in the old assembly that I just removed. Any of my other projectors in motion don't show any movement at all here during operation.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-02-2012, 03:21 PM:

The spring clips that holds the framing cam assembly (the round thing where you mount the intermittent assembly), located in the gear side of the machine, are wearing out by losing their spring tension.

Check with your dealer to see if you can get new clips to replace so you won't have problems with "rolling frame" issues.

But, if your gate tension is way too high, this will also pull on the assembly to roll it out of frame.

-Monte

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 03-02-2012, 03:22 PM:

This is a common problem, or at least one I've run into a few times.

There is a pressure spring on the framing shaft that wears out at causes this problem. I don't remember the number, and it is a bit of a pain to replace, but a simple fix.

When it starts slipping really bad, you can sit and watch the framing knob turning by itself.

Posted by Zachary C Washburn (Member # 3390) on 03-02-2012, 04:56 PM:

Ok. Just replaced the tension spring on the framing shaft and the problem persists.

I am going to try replacing the spring clips on the framing cam next. I am not sure why the word spring would be used in conjunction with them. As they are completely solid. But when I replaced the intermittent assembly and framing cam I did reuse the old framing cam retainer springs.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 03-02-2012, 05:07 PM:

Older projectors have the solid ones. Order 4 spring clips and new screws as well.The old screws are too long. The new spring clips are way too flexible. Double them up and you will fix what is wrong.. . . . just like Monte says. Louis

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-02-2012, 08:17 PM:

Me thinks the shutter compensator assy is ye cause. If you have access to another head, swap it out. Rebuilding one is not for the weak hearted (or weak fingered). Once they go, the compensation shaft that rides on the intermittent framing cam will start pounding it and rotate the framer around.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-02-2012, 10:56 PM:

quote: Zachary C Washburn
I can see that the guide rod on the framing and shutter assembly has a lot of back and forth movement.

Steve is spot-on, as usual. [beer]

The shutter drive assy needs to be rebuilt.

Zachary, contact me by PM, I have a rebuilt assy (from my prized XL head) I can send you repair-exchange.

Posted by Robert Throop (Member # 61) on 03-04-2012, 12:35 PM:

Some years ago I experienced this with an XL. I called the Strong factory and spoke with one of their techs. He suggested loosening the 4 screws P1557 in P1746 idler gear shaft and pushing P1746 all the way to the right against framing cam P1708. It was a quick and dirty fix but it's been 13 years and the movement still doesn't creep.

Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 03-05-2012, 09:07 PM:

I remember this happening on the #1 XL in the old Paramount Theatre in Asbury Park, NJ in the summer of 1971. Reported it to the company tech, who instructed me to cut a piece of wood and wedge it between the framing knob and the casing.

It worked. It was still there at the end of the summer season when I left to go back to teaching school. Don't know if they ever fixed it the right way.

Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 03-06-2012, 12:48 AM:

quote: John T. Hendrickson, Jr
who instructed me to cut a piece of wood and wedge it between

Hmmm, how many topics on Film-Tech have been solved with wedging a piece of wood? It's a popular solution...I hope it dovetails into digital cinema so we don't lose this old tried and true solution.

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 03-06-2012, 01:30 AM:

Yes I have used wood wedges for leveling digital projectors! [thumbsup]

Posted by Zachary C Washburn (Member # 3390) on 03-09-2012, 10:54 AM:

Ok. I have now tried to changing out the tension clips. Problem still not solved.

Steve. I don't know if I am missing something about the compensator. I replaced the entire framing and shutter assembly with a working assembly from a house that was converted to digital. I would certainly believe the problem lies there. I have looked at my manual cover to cover and don't see anything labeled compensator.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-09-2012, 02:52 PM:

Zachary, the shutter drive assembly you used is still bad, since as you said you can see the guide on the drive has a lot of movement. It MUST NOT bounce at all when the machine is running.

Until you fix that you will continue to have the problem and it will only get worse.

Contact me by PM I have a fresh assembly I can send you repair-exchange.

The compensator is the part of the shutter drive that is moved by the roller which rides on the framing cam that holds the intermittent. As you turn the framing knob, it shifts the shutter timing slightly to keep it perfectly sync'd with the movement of the intermittent sprocket. Without it, the shutter would be far enough out of time near the extremes of framing travel to have a lot of ghosting. Steve's use of the term compensator describes what it does, that is why you won't find it in the manuals.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-09-2012, 04:29 PM:

Zachary sent me a PM asking a few other questions so I'll answer here too:

Some other possibilities that came up from the questions are:

The gear that drives the shutter off the vertical shaft (I'm too lazy to look up the part # right now) if it is loose or the bore is worn out it MIGHT cause this problem..I have never seen this on a Simplex, but it is very common on Century's.

Another thought that occurred to me: If the shutter is warped or the shaft is damaged it could also cause problems.

This is one time where a video of the projector in action would help..can you upload one to Youtube or something Zachary?

Posted by Zachary C Washburn (Member # 3390) on 03-09-2012, 05:06 PM:

Thanks Tony. I am glad that you mentioned the warped shutter. This thought had crossed my mind this morning. That if the shutter was bent the centrifugal force could be enough to cause the sliding. I am going to try to make a couple videos to show you.

Here is a link to the 1st video of the assembly. http://youtu.be/5Z4cADvSPyY

I have a show playing right now. But as soon as I can I will try to get a good one the shutter movement.

I am looking at the Framing and Shutter assembly that I removed from this head and another that I have in a canabalized head. I can't make either one of them move like they do while in motion with the rest of the projector. And at this point the only thing I have not changed out internally is the horizontal drive shaft.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-09-2012, 06:16 PM:

Yep that is the classic shutter drive failure. You need a rebuilt drive for sure.

There is a spring washer and solid washer behind that gear that go bad and cause what you are seeing.

Another thing: That outboard bearing is too far out on the shaft...it needs to be pushed in to eliminate end play. To do that, on the right bottom of the casting, below the slot, there is a setscrew. Loosen it, and using your fingers, push that outboard bearing in as far as it will go. (If the bearing won't move, GENTLY pry open the slot on the right.) Retighten the setscrew (don't overtighten it or you will break the casting.) If you are really lucky that will solve the problem without a rebuild..as long as the washers I mentioned are still ok. CAUTION: After doing that turn the machine over by hand and feel and listen carefully...if the washers are too far gone it is possible to push the bearing in too far and cause binding or a mis-mesh of the vert. shaft and shutter drive gears.

The machine sounds a bit rough too...is it quieter without film? (If that was how it runs without film there are bigger issues here...)

Posted by Zachary C Washburn (Member # 3390) on 03-09-2012, 06:23 PM:

That is with film running. It is much quieter without. However there is still a clunking coming from the shutter. Especially when she is coming to a stop.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-09-2012, 06:26 PM:

Ok, read my previous post for some tips that I was editing in while you replied. [Smile]

If you adjust that bearing and it helps let us know. [Smile]

Posted by Zachary C Washburn (Member # 3390) on 03-09-2012, 06:57 PM:

Tony,

I just adjusted the bearing in the shutter assembly. My fingers are crossed. I ran the projector without film and there was practically no movement. Here is a link to the video of the adjusted bearing position. My asst was over my shoulder talking. Sorry for any jackassery in the background. http://youtu.be/OVo-vxbjSVw

I will let you know how she runs with film. It was sounding a bit louder than before. But I had disconnected the oil line to prevent get sprayed. I am hoping that was the cause of the added noise.

Alright. 15 minutes into the movie and she hasn't ticked once. My operator is going to keep his eye on it through the night. But this is the most progress I have seen so far.

Thanks a lot. I'll holler if we have any other problems it.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-09-2012, 08:10 PM:

Looks like you might have got it fixed. [thumbsup]

The ticking you heard in the video run was most likely the intermittent because it had no oil going in. (or it could have been the drive if the washers are shot.)

Keep a close eye on it for at least the next 3-5 shows..if it holds up ok it will probably last until you go digital.

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 08-29-2012, 08:17 PM:

How hard is it to swap out the shutter drive assembly?

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 08-29-2012, 09:06 PM:

Not hard at all.

Remove shutter cover and light shield/dowser holder assys.

Remove shutter blade.

On gearbox side, remove screw from the shutter drive gear on the vertical shaft and slide it down (or up) out of the way.

Back to outside of the head, remove the four allen bolts holding the shutter drive assy.

Remove the drive assy.

Turn framing knob so that the compensator cam's narrowest part is at the top.

Insert new shutter drive assy into the head, make sure the roller for the compensator is sitting on top of the framing cam. (You might have to push the shutter drive assy downward slightly to compress the spring on the compensator so the drive's shaft and bearing boss goes through the hole in the head.)

Slide the shutter drive gear on the vertical shaft back in mesh with the shutter drive's gear. Be careful not to damage any teeth. Reinstall and tighten the gears' screw.

Reinstall the shutter blade. Tighten the screws just enough so it can't spin freely, but can be turned on the shaft while holding the projectors' drivetrain from moving.

Set the shutter timing knob to it's mid-point.

Re-time the shutter and tighten the shutter screw securely. (if you need step by step instructions on timing a shutter you'd better not even think of trying to change a drive. [Smile]

)

Replace the lightshield and dowser assys, and replace the shutter cover.

On the bench should take about 15-20 minutes total, longer if on a console or pedestal where the lamphouse snood gets in the way.

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 08-29-2012, 09:36 PM:

Thanks Tony!
Yes I know how to set the shutter timing. [Smile]

On my new PR 1014 head I don't see any movement of the shutter drive when running but do have some travel ghost at top and bottom.
Once I know what to do for a swap which I can practice on my spare xl head I thought I should try and double check that everything is adjusted correctly before doing a swap out.
If that fails I am hoping to get a rebuilt one from you Tony.
[Smile]

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 08-31-2012, 05:30 PM:

Well I have the shutter drive out on my spare black xl head.
It seems to be in great shape.
When I push the end of the shaft towards the spring,it does move in a tiny bit. Is this normal for a new or rebuilt assembly?
This one may be fine as I never really scrutinized the ghosting on this head.
I was thinking of swapping it with the newer pr 1014 just to see...