Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Question: KINOTON PK60D disgasted parts

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Posted by Martin Daian (Member # 1779) on 03-02-2012, 08:20 PM:

Hello, i have 4 Kinoton PK60D , all the four units are made in July 2005 and used until June of 2011, 6 years of usage from new, well i replaced the trap and gates, all the rest looks without disgast but in the four intermittent movements have play, i speak with a German friend and explainme that the intermittent framing couple have disgast, my questions about are:

What is the life in hours of these part?
what will be the cost of these new parts to replace for the disgasted?

the part i am looking looks made of Teflon and in the Kinoton manual the part number is: COUPLING BUSHING COMPLETE FOR INTERMITTENT MOVEMENT 16D code number 1000 525 27003

any help are very welcome,

Thank you,
Martin

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-02-2012, 10:15 PM:

It depends on the operating conditions. One issue the PK60D ran into is that it often was not used with a Kinoton Lamphouse. As such, the heat in the gate area as well as the intermittent was higher. As a result, the teflon coupling failed sooner. Their lifespan really is not a specific time...it is all in how they are used (including if you crank your skate tension.

-Steve

Posted by Martin Daian (Member # 1779) on 03-03-2012, 09:54 AM:

Hi Steve, Thank you for your valuable information, i never think that the heat of the lamphouse affect that mechansim, i never use this projectors before, the person that sells to me the projectors use with Strong Highlitte II console as i seen on the pictures he sent before that i buy from him, i note that the projector missing the heat filters also so this will be the cause of the fast disgast of th eteflon piece, well, i need to find these parts, whenre i will buy these parts brand new?

THank you again,
Martin

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-03-2012, 11:07 AM:

Any Kinoton dealer can get you the parts...they are still in production (as are new projectors). We have PK60s running since about 2001/2 era on original couplings. Never an issue.

Posted by Martin Daian (Member # 1779) on 03-04-2012, 09:56 PM:

Hello Steve, Thank you for your help, so if you have running Kinoton's from years 2001 and still not have changed the coupling that's wonderfull, mine are made in middle of 2005 adn the four machines present little movement in the four faces of the intermittent, i check that movement taken with the hand the intermittent sprocket and moving it i detect very tiny movement on the sprocket, don't know if that's normal or not, i not want movement in the screen, i buy these Kinoton's for that other collectors and film technician recommend that Kinotons saying that have the most steady picture on the screen than other projector brands and that running very quiet,

maybe the little movement on the intermittent sprocket is normal?

i check the screews on the intermittent sprocket and are very tight, not moves on the screw, but the movewment i detect on the sprocket is tiny, don't knowif i will have problems on th escreen, i still not project on the screen, i am assembly recentlly my projection room so i will test tomorrow the projection to see if moves or not.

Thank you,
Martin

Posted by Geoff Newitt (Member # 6663) on 03-15-2012, 01:43 PM:

Have you checked/lubricated/adjusted the intermittent sprocket shaft outboard bearing?

Common cause of picture instability on Philips/Kinoton machines. If it's slack you'll have too much end float on the sprocket shaft, as it moves in and out the racking bush will rotate the sprocket shaft relative to the cross of the intermittent. Just be careful not to over-tighten it!

Posted by Martin Daian (Member # 1779) on 03-17-2012, 08:46 PM:

Hello Geoff, Thank you for your help, i think about to check the outboard bearing, i disarm tonight the four hex screws on the top and remove the aluminium top cover and see that's have grease on the bearing, also no horizontal lateral play on the shaft of the intermittent sprocket, the only play i see is vertical up and down and on each of the four faces of the starwhell, the rare thing is that when i put the frame knob on one of the top the play is over, only have play when the frame knob is on the middle possition that's is where need to be allways, i assume that the coupling intermittent pieces have disgast, don't know how that the four projectors i have are practically like new, i only will think that anybody before to sell to me change the four coupling parts on each machine, i speak with other persons that uses Kinotons and say that not will be possible that in this models made in the end of 2005 have disgasted the intermittent couplings, i note that the screws on the traps have signs of be removed before so i only will think that the couplings are changed for disgasted ones couplings, the new couplings on Kinoton cost arround $ 400 each, is a lot of money for that little pieces,

Thank you again,
Martin Daian

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 03-27-2012, 04:47 AM:

Martin, the framing bush can be worn out in a very short space of time, if the mech is run with excessive trap tension or with the skate height badly adjusted.
One could easily destroy the framing bush in the time frame you mention if the machine was run in the manner I've described. Much less time in fact.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 03-27-2012, 09:50 AM:

I agree with Pete.

What usually happens is the skates wear out much more quickly than other projectors and the operator increases the gate tension to keep the film from jumping instead of changing the skates as the projector does not come with any spare skates and unless the dealer specifically ordered them.

We installed an EC-2 at Pixar and at more than $100,000 you would think they would include a few spare parts. They do not. Kinoton could save everyone a lot of trouble if they did, but this is not the way they work.

Posted by Martin Daian (Member # 1779) on 03-27-2012, 11:08 AM:

Hello Pete, and Hello Sam, Thank you for your informations,

Also will help to use Kelmar cleaner unit with lubricant for film and a fair gate tension.

looks like the operators of the theater that sell to me the projectors uses that in the maximum pressure gate, i note that the gates are totally disgasted on the intermitent sprocket section, i put new ones,

Thank you,
Martin

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 03-27-2012, 12:56 PM:

Sam, I think the last batch of FP50D's I installed in Ireland came with spare runners & skates. As well as enough oil and grease to last a lifetime. Also a full set of Allen keys and a nice wee lends cleaning cloth with each one.

Of course your experience in the US may be different from Europe.

Martin, you have answered your won question, if the skates are chewed up, they have inexpertly adjusted.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 03-27-2012, 02:52 PM:

Regarding the issue of spare parts, I was a surprised to find no spares. There were wrenches and oil to be sure and only the apertures I specifically ordered, but no extras.

There are many options when ordering Kinoton and it's kind of like building your own projector for a list of parts translated from German to English. It could be whoever ordered the projectors added the spares, unless Pete personally placed the order.

Mind you, in the end, the results are spectacular and it is the best of all projectors, on the screen.

Posted by Martin Daian (Member # 1779) on 03-27-2012, 04:44 PM:

Thank you Sam

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-27-2012, 05:15 PM:

All of my customers have a full set of spares with Kinoton <smug>

What is odd about Kinoton is they give you a spare set of runner strips and two ceramic discs for 35mm (but no spare 16mm if you get an FP38) and no skates.

Picking on Kinoton for not providing spares would be like picking on Simplex for not including extra tension bands or turret drive tires...etc Or for Christie to not include belts...etc.

A good dealer should come up with a suitable spare parts list. We actually did to ensure that the end user has skates, belts, framing lamps, push button lamps...etc I can see if one dabbles in selling the machines not knowing what should be sold as spares...but an experienced Kinoton dealer should be able to come up with a spares list pretty easily.

As Sam pointed out...Kinoton's are somewhat a la carte. As such no one spare part kit will suffice for all. So the designer/dealer should come up with a suitable spares list for the particular customer.

And for aperture plates...again they provide the basics...a 1.85 plate, a Scope plate, a pin-hole and typically an "N" plate (1.37 scribed lines). If you have a bunch of formats, order what you need.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-27-2012, 05:45 PM:

While we are on the topic...

What is the failure mode of the ceramic discs? Do they crack or otherwise disintegrate? I remove them from time to time for cleaning, but am curious as to when and why one would feel the need to replace them. (I have not worked with these machines in commercial theatres that run every day, so I'm not sure what the failure modes are in the "normal" duty cycle.)

And why do some Kinoton skates (the ones that I have seen are with the "E" machines, though I am not sure if that is always the case) have a little spring thing to keep them upright when opened, while others just flop around unless/until they bang into the back of the lens.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 03-27-2012, 05:46 PM:

Welcome back Steve.

I only gripe about the lack of spare gate parts when the consequences are so dire, as in destroyed framing bushings.

Overtightening the gates bands on other projecors do not prematurely wear out critical projector parts as they do in Kinoton and this part seems to be in every projector since the FP20.

This was one reason they did not sell well anywhere on this side of the world where we seem to like our projectors tank-like and crude.

Oh well, we're litigating ancient film history now.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-27-2012, 07:35 PM:

I bring up the tension band thing on Simplexes...especially once the PR1060 and beyond came out since the film path had them wear rather fast (depending on threading) to the point they would just break!

As to Scott...that was sort of my point...it was an eclectic set of spare parts...two ceramic discs for 35mm...which I've yet to have to replace...runner strips...which one gets to wear them twice (flop them to wear the other side)...but the common wear item, the skate...nothing doing...that you have to spring for yourself.

On the 16mm side...ceramic discs can crack due to how small and fragile they are...especially on the fixed side.

As to skates...any good Kinoton dealer stocks them (we still do). I don't have them be a significant wear item...really. The art galleries tend to wear them the fastest...they dimple up. My mainstream theatres will get thousands of hours out of them...really.

As to the design of the skates...the E-skate is different and uses the spring to help hold it in place...not the much larger intermittent sprocket. "D" skates never had the spring. Different dynamics. Note, on the "D" projectors, there is supposed to be a rubber bumper to stop the skate arm from opening too far. There is also an eccentric stop that some use.

My return is only temporary Sam...like so many others...I'm out doing the DCinema conversion thing.