Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: How many frames?

This is topic How many frames? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Paul Looker (Member # 5420) on 07-31-2012, 05:30 PM:

I tried to search this answer out but had no luck. How many frames between the 3 on the film leader and the start of picture and how many frames from the start of the second cue, the changeover cue, to the end of a reel?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-31-2012, 05:52 PM:

There should be 47 frames of black from the 3-foot mark to the first frame of picture on each reel.

The end of a reel should have four frames with cues, followed by 18-24 frames of picture without cues (24-28 frames inclusive). The older standard required 24 frames of picture after the c/o cue; the newer standard is 18. I have no idea why that changed. In practice, you will see both, but 24 frames is common on most older films.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-01-2012, 02:11 PM:

That's how it should be, but of course, frames are often missing from the leaders, or the cues are in the wrong place, or both, so you need to check the actual positions on each reel,and allow for any error.

Since Paul mentioned the '3', I assume that he's thinking of the Academy leader, but there's also the SMPTE one of course, with the numbers at 24 frame intervals.

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 08-02-2012, 03:46 PM:

The original standard was 18 frames. Television caused the change from 18 frames to one second, or 24 frames. SMPTE 301 restored the original standard of 18 frames.

http://www.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/f1/t003014/p2.html

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 08-03-2012, 02:28 AM:

I can't help but think the title of this thread was too vague and am surprised a moderator hadn't stepped in...
"How many licks..."

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-03-2012, 09:47 PM:

I guess it sort of teeters on the line of being a teaser topic. I think the moderators are too busy doing digital installs to check the site as frequently as they used to. [Big Grin]

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 08-04-2012, 04:52 AM:

the last cues at the end of the reel are 1s before the end, hence after the last cue you can count 24 frames, the 25th will be black. You can check this on a normal print that does not fade out at the end. I used to have a framed leader which I used as a tape measure when a fading IN/OUT print was being built. Or you can use the universally wrong method, splicing "where the soundtrack ends".

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 08-04-2012, 06:46 PM:

If you arbitrarily count 24 frames after the last cue, you're going to end up projecting part of the tail leader in many cases.

Scott's answer is correct -- Assuming that you're talking about Academy leader, and a perfect print that hasn't yet been wrangled and mangled by previous users.

Theory and standards are good to know, but taking measurements is the only way to be sure.

I always count the actual frames after the final cue for every reel (except the final), and I measure the distance between the two sets of cues, and I measure the distance between the first frame of picture and the critical points on the leader -- which, in my case are 7' and 8' marks.

In the case of missing, or confusing cues -- there are often many conflicting sets -- or too many missing frames after the last cue -- I will create my own cues with a grease pencil.

Posted by Howard Zinman (Member # 6440) on 08-04-2012, 07:33 PM:

I was just about to ask a question on this very topic. To make sure I understand, you have the following:

1 - The Motor cue, which should appear on four consecutive frames.

2 - 172 frames of picture should follow.

3 - The Changeover cue, which appears on four consecutive frames.

4 - Finally, 18 frames of picture.

Should I tape these instructions on the wall next to my rewind bench? I hope I got it right [Razz]

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 08-04-2012, 08:41 PM:

That is correct.

If you have a frame/footage counter, you can just measure exactly 11-feet from the first frame of motor cue to the first frame of changeover cue. It's a heck of a lot easier than counting to 172 every time.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-04-2012, 09:58 PM:

Just to add to the confusion, the older (but, apparently, not oldest) standard has 168 frames between the last motor cue and first c/o cue. The 172 frame length is the current standard. Although I have seen some newer prints come in that are cued to the older standard (often from foreign labs).

So, basically, everything has to be measured now.

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 08-05-2012, 03:27 AM:

Teaser title or not, I admit the discussion is fascinating and I'm glad I clicked on it.