Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Kinoton ST 2000 platter installations in Aus?

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Posted by Phillip Grace (Member # 2262) on 10-28-2012, 02:03 AM:

Hi All.
Does anybody know of any Kinoton ST2000 endless loop platter systems installed in Australia?
I'd also be interested to hear any comments on the other makes of endless loop platters. There have been a few by Cinemeccanica but I gather the results were not very consistent.
Thanks.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 10-29-2012, 11:13 PM:

Endless loops are a major pain in the ass if you don't know how to handle them.

Kinoton makes great stuff, but I don't like the endless loop because it uses "Claws" that hold back the film then release it to form the essential "Cusps" to make the inside and outside diameters of the film pack the same. (I know Steve Guttag will argue with me on this, again, but watch the video I am going to link to at the end of this post. You will CLEARLY see the "claws" I am referring to.)

I have experience with the Christie ELF series endless loops. The ELF-1a was fair, but the ELF-1c was pretty good, as long as once it was set up the damn kids left it alone. It would on occasion lose two of the three cusps, but again, if left alone it would recover. It was pretty easy on the film, and as a bonus the ELF deck could be used as a standard deck, despite the pads.

Here's the Kinoton platter in action: ("Claws" visible at 2:30 and action starts at 3:19, film moves in at 3:47)

ST2000 in action

I have video of the Christie ELF in action, as part of my video for lectures on film presentation technologies, but I do not have it uploaded to my computer as yet.

Posted by Phillip Grace (Member # 2262) on 10-30-2012, 04:53 AM:

Hi Tony

Thanks for that information. I actually like the look of the Kinoton unit because it seems to have positive control of the film at all times, but there must be some sort of accumulated wear on the film as a result of the claws and hooks grabbing at it so frequently. The surfaces of the film handling parts would have to be pretty smooth or yielding for minimum damage.
There were some of the Cinemeccanica endless loop platters installed in a few Australian sites, but I never saw one in operation. I gather they had only limited success with them.

Cheers.
Phillip.

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 11-17-2012, 11:42 PM:

Phillip,

At the old Hoyts Waverley Gardens Twin in 1986 Hoyts installed a Cinemeccanica endless loop system on the top deck of one of the Kinoton ST200 platter systems. The top plate was removed and the Cinemeccanica system installed.

Myself and about three other projectionists were evaluating it for both Roy Ramsay and Jack Harker. These two were about to order the projection equipment for the first local multiplex, Hoyts 8 Chadstone which opened later that year. Three of the projection staff evaluating the system including myself were all to open the new multiplex.

The system worked well until an oily print ground the system to a halt. The system used a star-wheel and had required the film to be constantly moving over the platter vanes to work. Glug that up with oil and it was not pretty. The next show in was Aliens and somebody decided to have a play with the adjustments and that left the next shift (me) having to spin all 2.5 hours of Aliens through the system by hand!

This experience and a union black-ban on the units conspired to eliminate them from being ordered for the multiplex fleet. I did receive a VHS video at the time of the Christie system that looked similar in operation. I belive one was ordered and tested by Hoyts but I can't recall where.

Once at Chadstone we realised due to prints moving theatres often twice a day that the endless loops would not have saved us any time at all. It took a session to get a print into the system and a session to run it out. We actually unthreaded it often to clean the gate!

It would have been better in a cinema where the same program would run all week and could be used by a manager with a timer and automation. It did actually work well for most of the time I ran it back then.

Posted by Phillip Grace (Member # 2262) on 11-21-2012, 03:28 AM:

Hi David.

I've been gathering up comments on the various endless loop systems, and opinions seem to be polarized. It definitely depends who you ask.
I think the operating environment probably had a lot to do with success or failure. It seems that conditions had to be near perfect for them to work reliably. Just recently made contact with an operator who reckoned the Cinemeccanica system was a total disaster, but installed a Christie ELF in the identical situation and it is still working perfectly.

I'd overlooked the extent of the influence the union had in those days. Perhaps the same thing applied at G.U. There were some of the Cinemeccanica units installed at the Pitt Centre, in Sydney, but the endless platter bit was out of service when I saw them. (I had the impression they had been especially designed for very tall operators!)
Certainly they would have been most suitable for the initial weeks of a first-release run on the same screen on "no share" rental. I recently saw a Hoyts installation where several of the machines had platters with only two plates - Kinoton ST-160 tucked in under the lamp houses - probably for much the same reason.
I have been kicking around the idea of how the occasional 35mm film might be integrated into the now fully automated and unattended digital projection rooms. Might be time to revisit the endless loop.
How is the digital revolution in your part of the world?
Cheers.

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 11-21-2012, 04:26 AM:

I spent two or more very boring weeks watching a Cinemeccanica endless loop platter spin and beat, round and round at The Sydney Royal Easter Show in the early 1990's. I was employed for Sydney Rail and there rather tacky exhibit CINERAILARAMA.

The equipment really was 100% reliable and could even be easily stopped and started when needed during the busy times to get the large numbers through the door. Multiple copies of the same 7 minute film were on the platter. Equipment was supplied by GU Theatre supplies.

Posted by Tom Wienholt (Member # 1510) on 11-21-2012, 08:37 AM:

Watched the video and noticed that the platter is threaded with the soundtrack down/emulsion toward center of the platter. Isn't that wrong?

Posted by Robert Throop (Member # 61) on 11-21-2012, 09:46 AM:

I had the impression that the Cinemeccanica system was bifilar with vertical reels that reversed direction midway through th show. Was this just an early version with platters adapted later?

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 11-21-2012, 02:57 PM:

The bifilar unit was a swiss copy of Russian design. Carbons Inc. brought it in. Louis

Posted by Phillip Grace (Member # 2262) on 11-22-2012, 02:51 AM:

Hi Cameron.

How clean was the room the machine was in? Did you notice or do you remember noticing any accumulating film damage?
... much better to endure two weeks of boredom, rather than two weeks of absolute terror trying to keep the thing running!

Kinoton advise winding with emulsion in for their endless loop machine for better film transport. I always preferred emulsion out and sound-track up on conventional systems, to protect the guided edge from abrasions, and the analogue soundtrack from accumulating dust.

Cheers.