Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: HELP-Eiki 16mm question

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Posted by Mark Newgarden (Member # 3857) on 01-13-2013, 10:28 AM:

Quick Eiki SSL-O question:

The sound just quit out of nowhere. Exciter lamp lights, fuse is good. Any next logical step to address the problem?

THANKS!

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 01-13-2013, 10:42 AM:

Check to see if some lint or dirt built up in the light path between the exciter and the pickup device. Sometimes prints will drag something like that into there.

Posted by Mark Newgarden (Member # 3857) on 01-13-2013, 11:01 AM:

Thanks, film path is clean, including this area. Machine worked perfectly fine a week ago, now mute...

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 01-13-2013, 11:04 AM:

Is there a "Mag/Opt" switch on the machine?

I have a pair of Elmo projectors that have such a setting. If the switch is in the "Mag" position, it is looking for a magnetic soundtrack and, if there isn't one, no sound will be produced. It has to be set for "Opt" to read the optical soundtrack.

Sometimes, this "Mag/Opt" switch is in a non-intuitive location. Sometimes it is labeled simply "M/O."

Secondarily, there might be an "Internal/External" switch used to select whether you want to use the internal speaker/amplifier or a remote, external speaker. It might be labeled something like "Line-Out."

Give it a look-see. I have occasionally been tripped up by these things.

Posted by Mark Newgarden (Member # 3857) on 01-13-2013, 11:51 AM:

Thanks Randy. No mag/ opt switch on this machine-strictly for optical tracks. There is a line-out jack which I have used with a speaker from time to time but no on/ off switch. I tried the line out jack to speaker just to see if anything would come though that way but nothing did...

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 01-13-2013, 12:40 PM:

Is there a mic input? If so, do you get any sound when using that?

I don't recognise this model; sounds like one of the slot loaders, and I never used any of those.

Do you get any sound at all, hiss or mains hum, if you turn the volume right up?

Is this internal or external speaker? If external, check for any damage to the cable; also try plugging in a different speaker.

If none of that helps it sounds like an amp problem; does the amp have its own fuse?

Posted by Mark Newgarden (Member # 3857) on 01-13-2013, 01:05 PM:

Hi Stephen- Yes this is an Eiki slot loader, internal speaker. There is a mic input but I don't have anything with a jack that size to test it with. There is NO hiss or hum at all. Yes, there is a fuse for the amp, the first thing I tried. I switched fuses with the exciter lamp fuse which is clearly working (exact same fuse type). The exciter lit with the switched fuse, so it must be good -but still no sound with the either fuse in place. I even tried a spare I had on hand and again, nothing. Thanks for all suggestions, I've been using this machine for many years with no problems and I still can't help but think the solution has to be something fairly simple that I'm overlooking...

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 01-13-2013, 01:41 PM:

Try some non synch input in the mic jack. If you don't get any sound I would guess the amp itself quit on you rather than a solar cell/exciter problem. If that is the case, you can pull the signal off the solar cell where it plugs into the amp and send it through any external amplifier with a mic input, at least until you get the amp repaired.

Posted by Mark Newgarden (Member # 3857) on 01-13-2013, 02:16 PM:

Assuming the amp did just "quit" does anybody have an leads on someone who does this type of repair in the NYC area?

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 01-13-2013, 03:01 PM:

Stupid questions: Does the film have an optical soundtrack? Is the film threaded correctly?

I know... dumbass questions but dumbass things like that have tripped me up before.

If you slide a business card or something small, thin and opaque through the film path at the sound scanning point do you get the characteristic "THUMP" sound?

In other words, verify that the projector is or is not working correctly regardless of the film. As mentioned, it might be a problem with the film, not the machine. This will verify.

Posted by Mark Newgarden (Member # 3857) on 01-13-2013, 03:11 PM:

Film has optical track, have tried a few in fact. No "THUMP" with credit card swipe test. It's the machine for sure, and the amp "quitting" seems a possibility. Any thoughts on amp repair options appreciated!

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 01-13-2013, 04:12 PM:

Try posting on this site . There are a lot of Eiki buffs there as well as some very knowledgeable repair people.

Posted by Mark Newgarden (Member # 3857) on 01-13-2013, 04:40 PM:

Thanks for the tip!

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-13-2013, 08:22 PM:

quote: Mark Newgarden
There is NO hiss or hum at all.

That would seem to imply that the amplifier is fundamentally not working. Like Stephen, I have very little experience with Eiki slotloaders, but I do have an NT-1 and an RT-2. The only other thing that occurs to me is that there is a plug and jack, which I think is 2.5mm (as in, smaller than a mini headphone jack), where the line from the photocell connects to the amplifier module in the base of the machine in on one of them (presumably to facilitate the easy swapping out of the entire amp module). Apologies if this sounds a bit vague - my projectors are back home in England and I'm currently in Southern California, and so can't open one up to look and take photos. Could that plug have simply worked loose and fallen out?

Posted by Mark Newgarden (Member # 3857) on 01-13-2013, 09:13 PM:

Leo -Thank you for that info- I have not taken opened the back and taken a close look yet (because I'm not exactly sure what to look for) but I will see if I can figure this out from your description. THANKS for all the feedback here; its all very much appreciated.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-13-2013, 09:58 PM:

The Eiki line of 16mm portables was designed from the ground up to be easier to maintain and repair then its competitors - this was its main selling point. So the entire machine is designed around a series of modules - the camtank module, the power supply module, the motor module, the amplifier module etc. - which are supposed to be easy simply to remove and swap out altogether. The idea is that if you're the a/v technician in a junior school in the middle of nowhere and your projector goes bad, you can easily identify and remove the offending module altogether, return the bad one and receive it after repair (or a replacement) by mail.

If your Eiki is similar to mine, the amp module sits in the base of the case. It is removed by taking off the knobs on the operating side (little screws clamp the volume knob, tone knob etc. to the shaft of the potentiometer), unplugging it from the power supply and the line to the photocell on the other side, undoing a couple of screws that secure it to the chassis and then just pulling the whole thing out.

If the exciter lamp works on your machine but there is no hint of a sound whatsoever, even by swiping a card in front of it and with the volume turned up to full, then this says to me that the problem can only be one of five things.

1 - the photocell is bad (unlikely, given that it's making no noise whatsoever).
2 - the connection between the photocell and amp module is bad.
3 - the amp module has no power supply (broken power connection from the transformer module?).
4 - something inside the amp module is bad
5 - the connection between the amp module and speaker is bad.

All of those connections are either jacks or molex-style plastic connectors: they're designed to be easily removable. IMHO it's definitely worth opening up the non-operating side of the machine to see if any of them have worked loose and broken.

Posted by Jonathan Wood (Member # 4614) on 01-14-2013, 12:27 AM:

Hi Mark,
sounds similar to a problem I had with a b&h projector , turned out there was a problem with the power supply but it's odd th exciter lights as I think the exciter is powered from the amp? You say u tried ext spk with line out , did u mean ext spk jack? I seem to remember Most eiki s had a dual purpose ext spk out, using a mono spk plug you got spk level and with a stereo plug u got line level on one channel,- all thru the volume pot. If the exciter still works u could try tapping from that thru a sep mic amp then a separate amp? Probably easier to swap the amp tho?

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-14-2013, 09:16 AM:

quote: Jonathan Wood
...but it's odd th exciter lights as I think the exciter is powered from the amp?

Not on my Eikis - the exciter is powered straight from the transformer module. That module has four outputs - 22v for the projection lamp in economy mode, 24v for the lamp on full blast (those two have a common negative), 40v for the amp module and 8v for the lacing and exciter lamps. So the power connection to the amp module, or the amp module itself, could be bad and the exciter would still light up.

You can find the schematic in section 4-4 of the N series service manual in the warehouse here - page 43 of the PDF. I'm 99% sure that the power supply is essentially the same in the R and S series projectors as well. That 9-pin connector is definitely worth checking out - I have a dim memory of a problem with rust getting into one once.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 01-16-2013, 09:59 AM:

The good thing about the Eiki machines is that they were designed to be serviced, unlike most machines.

I bet someone out there has an amplifier out of a junker that you can get.

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 01-16-2013, 06:58 PM:

Is there an ext. speaker jack? Normally, when you plug in an ext speaker, it cuts off the internal speaker. Try an ext. speaker. The contacts on the jack that cut off the internal speaker can become dirty, and the internal speaker will not work. Try pluging and unpluging (several times) a plug into the ext speaker jack. This can clean the contacts.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 01-17-2013, 05:05 AM:

quote: Mark Newgarden
No "THUMP" with credit card swipe test

Maybe you've maxed out the credit card. [Wink]

The amp has died or perhaps you have a connection loose on the speaker terminals? You should be hearing SOMETHING even with nothing going through the projector.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 01-17-2013, 04:01 PM:

And of course you check the internal amp fuse, not just the main power fuse?