Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Kinoton intermittent going on/off

This is topic Kinoton intermittent going on/off in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Bajsic Bojan (Member # 4928) on 07-27-2013, 08:06 PM:

Hello

have this strange problem occur tonight with the intermittent on our Kinoton (FP10, but can probably happen on any).

Spontaneously about an hour and a half into the movie, the picture started jumping vigorously, the gate went open. I stopped, noticed what seemed like a splice-caused gate opening, rethreaded, manually checked if it is running ok, started again, only to have it start running wild again.

The intermittent was at that point not running intermittently but more or less linearly, but at a slower speed than the two other sprockets. I took the film out and checked the intermittent manually and it exhibited random behavior, it would work or stop completely or move linearly, depending on the position of the framing knob.

It would work better (also with film in it) if the framing was in the 12 - 3 o'clock region, and would definitely not work when in the 9 - 12 o'clock positions. It would also randomly go to linear mode sometimes, if you just nudged the framing, even in 12-3 positions. It also has the tendency to only allow 'seamless' framing in one direction (towards 3), but the framing knob did nothing the other way around.

I noticed also that the screw that tightens it in place was moved from the 'factory set position' indicated by a red lacquer dot.

I opened the head and could not see anything wrong with the chains/belts.

What can one do? Try to screw the screw back in place? While its running, or when? In the manual it just says "to be carried out by experts only". Any help appreciated.

Posted by James Crowley (Member # 7299) on 08-02-2013, 06:52 PM:

Does your fp10 have a motor inverter fitted? If that is failing try running at 25fps? If that is ok it could be the speed controller, if it doesn't swap the inverter. If the picture is gradually sliding down the screen that would indicate the framing bush.

Posted by Phillip Grace (Member # 2262) on 08-03-2013, 01:39 AM:

Is this a mechanical projector or one of the E series machines with electronic intermittent?

If it is mechanical, I think you may have two related problems. The intermittent shaft is in two halves and framing is achieved by sliding a coupling with spiral bore across the two halves, which rotates the intermittent sprocket with respect to the shaft - so altering the framing. I suspect that in this case the coupling is breaking up internally and a replacement is required.

If the intermittent sprocket of a mechanical projector is running in continuous mode, I think the machine may be fitted with a special Kinoton intermittent movement. I was not sure any of these were actually made, but they were intended for use in production houses, where high speed shuttling of the film was required. This arrangement has a clutch which allows the drive to the intermittent sprocket to bypass the geneva movement, and transmit continuous motion to the sprocket. Malfunction of this clutch would cause the problem you have. Possibly cleaning it will fix it.

If the projector is an E series machine then the problems are related to the projector electronics and you should contact Kinoton direct for a solution.

Good luck!

Posted by Jonathan Wood (Member # 4614) on 08-03-2013, 03:56 AM:

Can't see it being the inverter if , as it appears from the description, you tried turning the movement manually? I agree that it sounds like a problem with the frame coupling. You could try emailing kinoton directly as they are very helpful and still support 35mm. I didn't think they made an fp10 'E' series , just the A type with the belt drive as opposed to direct drive type? It's strange that the intermittent moves continuously , I'm trying to imagine how that would happen? I had an erratic running issue with my fp40 but that turned out to be down to the way I had refilled the oil!

Posted by Phillip Grace (Member # 2262) on 08-03-2013, 04:53 AM:

The continuous/intermittent movement is described in this U.S. Patent:

U.S. Patent number: 3979966
Clutch device for either intermittent or continuous driving of perforated film.
Issued: September 14, 1976
Assignee: Kinoton GmbH
Inventor: Jan Jakob Kotte

It can be found on google patents.
The same man created the Philips DP 70 projector.

Cheers.

Posted by Jonathan Wood (Member # 4614) on 08-03-2013, 09:27 AM:

Hi Philip,
I'm aware that those drives exist but where they ever incorporated into an Fp 10 which is essentially a portable? They were to my knowledge as you say used in labs , dubbing theatres etc . I suppose it might have been useful in a portable used for screening location rushes so a quick replay could be effected? I was trying to imagine what could cause an ordinary intermittent to run continuously? [Smile]

Posted by Phillip Grace (Member # 2262) on 08-03-2013, 10:14 AM:

Hi Jonathan.
Yes, the continuous motion is a puzzle! I can only guess that the framing coupling is damaged to the point that in some positions the sprocket is more or less coasting along - either with an occasional nudge by the geneva movement, or being drawn along by the film. It seems from Bajsic's description that the sprocket, or sprocket and shaft is free to rotate uncontrolled in certain circumstances, and is running slower than the rest of the machine. If the gate was found to have been pulled open and the lower loop pulled out it may be that the intermittent stopped.(Either as the cause of the problem or the effect - failure Vs breakage). Something must be broken, or at best, disconnected.
Kinoton can build just about anything, but like you I couldn't really imagine an application for the continuous/intermittent unit in a portable machine, and thought that they would be more likely found on heavy duty machines in dubbing studios, slaved to a bank of dubbers, for "Rock And Roll" mixing. In that case fast shuttling would be very useful, particularly for reverse running.
Best. [Smile]

Posted by Phillip Grace (Member # 2262) on 08-07-2013, 07:06 AM:

Hi Jonathan.
I forgot to ask. Where did you run into the continuous/intermittent versions? Do you know the model number of the projector?
Thanks!

Posted by Jonathan Wood (Member # 4614) on 08-08-2013, 04:48 AM:

Hi Philip,

No sorry don't have a specific model in mind, I was just referring generally to the 'rock n roll' machines used in dubbing theatres . Although fp38 comes to mind for some reason? [Smile]

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 08-08-2013, 06:00 AM:

http://www.kinoton.de/en/produkte-loesungen/studiotechnik/spezialprojektoren-fuer-den-studiobetrieb/35-16-mm.html

Posted by Bajsic Bojan (Member # 4928) on 08-08-2013, 06:19 AM:

Woa. Sorry for not replying before, it was a busy week.

The problem was a worn out coupling bushing (slightly 'shaved' on the inside). Strange that it happened on a machine with less than 1500 operating hours, checked annually.

It took a replacement bushing and 4 hours of work to get it replaced and adjusted by the technician.

Thanks for the replies and suggestions.